This vintage synth thing is way out of hand

[Markyboard]

So to my point - do you think the financial cost + energy to be spent is worth the differential you get from the sounds?

 

Not trying to be disingenuous - I'm genuinely curious.

 

Here's my opinions:

 

1) Buying a vintage synth: As I said earlier I would not recommend buying a vintage synth under most circumstances. Exceptions may be if you're an electronics geek that enjoys restoring them and/or the cost/risk/potential profit is heavily in you favor. Biggest risk imo is that the thing dies and you (or your tech) can't find replacement parts. Most people aren't going to know if this is the case in advance. Even if you are capable of fixing them yourself it's still a lot of "energy" and time. I've made a hobby of this but you don't want to know I don't want to tell you how much I've spent on parts for just the Memorymoog over the years .

 

2) I don't recommend buying a vintage synth strictly from a sound perspective, especially when compared to modern offerings. I think the differences can be almost negligible if you're into programming. You may not duplicate the exact sound but rather come up with a very similar sound taking advantage of that modern synths' sweet spot. But from an overall playing and sound experience I might recommend purchase of a vintage synth, with the caveats in # 1. This Jupiter 8 that I get to keep for a few more days is absolutely wonderful to play and sounds magnificent. This is the first time I've ever spent more than 15 minutes with one and it is just so immediate and fun with maybe the best interface ever. But to me it sounds wonderful in a polite way and my taste still lean heavily toward the balls to the walls Moog sound and other aggressive sounding synths that can be tamed when need be. So for me I'm satisfied getting these polite sounds from VSTs as opposed to spending many dollars on something like a Jupiter 8 - nice as it is.

 

3) Hanging on to your currently owned vintage synths: I obviously do but yeah I know, I know . If you need the money for some other board then sure - sell it. If you're not using it (and why aren't you) then of course sell it. Case in point - my CP-80. I'm not a collector (others may disagree) and I don't look at synths as investments. But I wouldn't worry about a synth dying as reason to sell and that's from someone with 2 currently working Andromeda with non-replaceable parts. So yeah if one (or both) die tomorrow I'm out a potential 3-6K that I could have had selling them today. That would majorly suck but I use them every day and you got to enjoy what you have. If you're worried to the point of not enjoying something then sell it.

 

That's what I thinks.

[mate stubb]

I can convince myself vintage synths ain't all that these days, until I run across them.

 

Today I was at Tonewheel General Hospital looking over one of my sick B-3s with Rick, and he allowed me into his play room.

 

I got to play a vintage CP-80 and OB8, thru old fashioned Crown amps and JBLs. It was just so juicy and effortless sounding.

[Dave Bryce]

I imagine making my Minimoog D keyless and play it over MIDI only in future and once the busbars and other keyboard related componets make problems.

I'm actually there preventatively right now I trigger my Mini via Kenton CV/MIDI converter from an Alesis Ion. Longer keybed, too. Triggering from the DAW as well - always a bit odd to me doing that rather than capturing the audio.

 

No portamento, though...can't do that with the Kenton (at least, not the one I've got)

 

dB

[The Real MC]

Ok, let me pick your brains here if you'll entertain the discussion...

 

There's a financial cost and an 'effort' cost.

 

I can handle the financial cost. I just can't fathom the effort and energy to keeping it running long term - the energy of getting spare parts, finding the right tech (I seem to recall from previous posts that you're good with electronics - I'm not), looking for alternatives, researching, cleaning, replacing things like key contacts, etc.

 

I saw your post about your live setup, and I find it admirable (and daunting) to be using that gear on stage.

 

I'm sure it is gratifying to a few - like repairing vintage cars, but I think this is a select group.

 

So to my point - do you think the financial cost + energy to be spent is worth the differential you get from the sounds?

 

Not trying to be disingenuous - I'm genuinely curious.

 

Unless they are directed otherwise with no expense spared, repair techs are focused on getting the repair out the door.

 

When I'm under the hood of these things, I'm focused on making sure it stays operational. With a few decades of (non-music) systems engineering under my belt, it just so happens that they apply to analog synths so I know a lot of tricks.

 

While it's a lot of effort, most of the time it is well worth it. Most techs would resurrect an OBX then be done with it. I saw how OBXs tend to break too often (not due to the work of techs) and I went the extra mile to identify the design errors. I don't want to be under the hood of these things every three months, so I make sure my work has long lasting benefits.

 

I'm also practical and know when the energy/effort is not worth it. I avoid synths with slidepots because those parts are too unreliable and too hard to source. I tried to resurrect an ARP Omni that had been in storage in a damp basement for 20 years and it quickly reached the point of diminishing returns (way more than just slide pots). While the lovely piano action on my ARP 16 voice Piano was the primary appeal, by the time I did the major overhaul on the electronics I decided the effort bringing it back to stock was not worth it because it sounds like sh!t. There's a couple of membrane interconnects that are bad with no direct replacements, and it needs other modifications to make it useful. Frankly a lot of inferior components went into this thing. I have two paths from this point: continue with the improvements, or gut the stock electronics and turn the wonderful piano action into a MIDI controller. Right now it's on the back burner.

 

Doing a full restore on my Memorymoog back in 1996 then being brave to gig it when others dared not gave me plenty of confidence.

 

So it's a personal satisfaction element, and also a GAS element as these were cool toys I couldn't afford back when they were new (today's market prices are even worse). So to me there's definitely some gratification to it, and even more when others like Markyboard can benefit from the fruits of my labor. I still get emails from techs thanking me for my webpage on how to fix the OBX.

 

I share Markyboard's take on the subject. It is not an endeavor that is for everybody. While my vintage gear has MIDI retrofits, some MIDI implementations - like MIDI Volume, MW and PB - are not possible due to the design of the original synth. Modern synths don't have that limitation.

[The Real MC]

I imagine making my Minimoog D keyless and play it over MIDI only in future and once the busbars and other keyboard related componets make problems.

I'm actually there preventatively right now I trigger my Mini via Kenton CV/MIDI converter from an Alesis Ion. Longer keybed, too. Triggering from the DAW as well - always a bit odd to me doing that rather than capturing the audio.

 

No portamento, though...can't do that with the Kenton (at least, not the one I've got)

 

dB

 

Not a hard modification to process the Kenton with the minimoog portamento - that is such a signature sound of the minimoog.

 

I wish Rudi still had the Lintronics MIDI retrofit available - I have one in my Minimoog and there is nothing better.

[Dave Bryce]

Not a hard modification to process the Kenton with the minimoog portamento

Really? Tell me more.

 

that is such a signature sound of the minimoog.

Don't I know it.

 

I wish Rudi still had the Lintronics MIDI retrofit available - I have one in my Minimoog and there is nothing better.

So I've heard.

 

dB

[JoJoB3]

Ooo, I dunno. I'd say buying a nice vintage is ooodles better/more fun than getting any of the new toys.

[Al Coda]

I got to play a vintage CP-80 and OB8, thru old fashioned Crown amps and JBLs. It was just so juicy and effortless sounding.

 

Is that a typo or do you really mean the CP80 ?

 

I always hated the CP70 and CP80 pianos and I think there was only ONE artist on the planet using it the way I could stand,- George Duke (RIP).

 

The OB-8 is another story,- I loved it´s sound.

But I sold it because of several reasons:

a)

size (case flexed on transport,- not good for the circuit boards)

b)

keyboard not velocity sensitive (which I hated w/ poly-synths)

c)

size again,- it became too large for what it did.

d)

all the additional features which came w/ new eproms were software already and I used the "Page 2" features a lot for studio work.

 

So,- when the Xpander and Matrix-12 were available, I decided to jump on the smaller formfactor Xpander AND I was able to manually re-create my own patches,- formerly created on OB-8,- on the Xpander.

I had ´em side by side before I sold the OB-8.

I used good headphones and it needed some time and a few programming tricks,- but when done I was ready selling the OB-8.

 

Now people might come and tell it´s impossible it sounded exactly the same.

My answer is, it doesn´t have to sound exactly the same because we´re musicians and not synth comparators.

When it comes to sound, all I want from new gear is using it musical.

So, when I have a few patches I always need and it comes close enough to fit the tracks and/or band context,- that´s fine.

 

Examples,-

 

Lyle Mays replaced his SCI Prophet-5 w/ Roland Super Jupiter JX-10 followed by KORG Z1.

Joe Zawinul waded thru many different rigs where his analog flagship synths were replaced more and more by endorsed KORG gear.

Jan Hammer shrinked down to a KORG Triton Extreme 88 and software.

Herbie Hancock now uses a grand piano, KORG Kronos, Roland keytar and mainstage.

Chick Corea´s rig shriked into an acoustic grand piano, MOOG lead synth and Motif series workstations followed by Montage.

And those guys are and were no Pop music keyboardplayers, instead do/did complex instrumental music where signature sounds count.

So, do we hear complaints from audience ? No, we don´t.

And the reason is they always found a way transfering their signature sounds to new gear.

 

I have vintage gear too, yes,- it´s there from the past ...

I remember what it cost when I bought new, so there are some pieces I don´t wanna let go for cheap, but I don´t use ´em too much anymore.

When I do, I recognize how good they sound, but I doubt that´s necessary for the music or makes the music any better.

The final result/product is still a mix !

 

A.C.

 

[Al Coda]

... Minimoog D keyless ...

 

No portamento, though...can't do that with the Kenton (at least, not the one I've got)

 

dB

 

I have the same issue when using the Mini w/ my Roland MPU-101.

Also the keyboard tracking works only w/ the local keyboard action.

 

I fear, it works that way as long the local keyboard is connected/ in use.

 

A.C.

[Al Coda]

Not a hard modification to process the Kenton with the minimoog portamento - that is such a signature sound of the minimoog.

 

How ?

Is that mod usable w/ other (non-Kenton) MIDI/ CV interfaces too ?

 

I wish Rudi still had the Lintronics MIDI retrofit available - I have one in my Minimoog and there is nothing better.

 

I want one and don´t find !

 

A.C.

[Markyboard]

Not a hard modification to process the Kenton with the minimoog portamento

Really? Tell me more.

dB

 

I did this a couple of years ago so here's my recollection:

 

There are 2 ways to achieve glide; you can have the CV to midi interface generate the "in between" change in voltage (glide from note to note) or you can have the mini's original circuitry do it - this being the preferred way by most afaik.

 

The problem with the latter is the original mini's CV input for controlling the oscillators is after the glide and filter tracking circuitry. No idea why they did it this way. But if you move that CV input to the same place the internal keyboard outputs its voltage from than you get everything. Except you have to disconnect the internal keyboard's voltage at this point, otherwise it's all screwed up.

 

This is where a shorting jack comes in handy. With nothing plugged in it allows connection of the internal keyboard circuit. With the CV plugged in it disconnect the keyboard and connects the Kenton CV (or whatever interface you're using).

 

To my knowledge this was not documented any place so again I'm not sure why Moog or other techs did not implement it this way. I can tell you it works great.

 

 

[Markyboard]

 

How ?

Is that mod usable w/ other (non-Kenton) MIDI/ CV interfaces too ?

A.C.

 

Yes.

[Al Coda]

 

How ?

Is that mod usable w/ other (non-Kenton) MIDI/ CV interfaces too ?

A.C.

 

Yes.

 

Thank you !

Due to the Roland MPU-101´s design delivering Pitch-CV, PB-CV and Modulation-CV on separate CV-output connectors, I´ll have to look into this in depth.

I imagine it might require kind of internal 4-in-1 CV-mixer and/or buffer because there´s also the original keyboard CV to be included.

 

A.C.

[Markyboard]

I found the posted details on my mods from 2016 HERE.

 

A.C.: I'm not familiar with the MP-101 interface. Do you still have the original keyboard and wheels attached? I agree you do need to conceptually "mix" or more accurately sum those voltages from the MP-101. But my gut tells me it's better to add a jack or 2 bringing out the exact points where the original PB wheel and modulation CVs (osc3 or noise) feed the pitch and filter modulation.

[The Real MC]

To my ears the Matrix 1000 sounds better than the OB6 and it can sound very similar to the big old Oberheims.

 

No, it doesn´t.

In no way does it sound like OBX, OBXa, OB-8 or even Xpander/Matrix-12.

 

Agree. I used to own a M6R, same audio chain as M1000. It served as a temporary replacement for my sick Memorymoog years ago but no way does it sound like the legacy Oberheims.

[The Real MC]

Due to the Roland MPU-101´s design delivering Pitch-CV, PB-CV and Modulation-CV on separate CV-output connectors, I´ll have to look into this in depth.

I imagine it might require kind of internal 4-in-1 CV-mixer and/or buffer because there´s also the original keyboard CV to be included.

 

You'll want a dedicated input jack on the Minimoog for keyboard pitch CV, then route the MPU-101 Pitch-CV to that jack. You can use a Moog CP-251 to mix the PB-CV and Modulation CV then send the mixer output to the Minimoog stock OSC and FILTER input jacks. The reason I suggest the CP-251 is that it has two mixer inputs that can process CVs, and as a bonus you can use the '251 input knobs to vary the depth of PB and modulation.

[Markyboard]

 

You can use a Moog CP-251 to mix the PB-CV and Modulation CV then send the mixer output to the Minimoog stock OSC and FILTER input jacks. The reason I suggest the CP-251 is that it has two mixer inputs that can process CVs, and as a bonus you can use the '251 input knobs to vary the depth of PB and modulation.

 

Excellent idea! Had to try it for myself controlling another module thinking there might be variable pitch offsets due to cable impedance. But no - works great.

[The Real MC]

I wish Rudi still had the Lintronics MIDI retrofit available - I have one in my Minimoog and there is nothing better.

 

I want one and don´t find !

 

A.C.

 

Just peeked at his website: "LMC-2 Coming Soon!"

[RABid]

I mentioned 4 synths early in this thread. A few days later I found a photo of me playing three of them. Chroma, MemoryMoog, Moog Source. Considering inflation this is definitely the most expensive stack of synths I've ever played.

 

[Markyboard]

 

You can use a Moog CP-251 to mix the PB-CV and Modulation CV then send the mixer output to the Minimoog stock OSC and FILTER input jacks. The reason I suggest the CP-251 is that it has two mixer inputs that can process CVs, and as a bonus you can use the '251 input knobs to vary the depth of PB and modulation.

 

Excellent idea! Had to try it for myself controlling another module thinking there might be variable pitch offsets due to cable impedance. But no - works great.

 

Thinking about this some more (while washing my car) it would be quite a bit cheaper to replace your Roland with a Kenton Pro Solo MK 2 which does all the "mixing" of CVs (Note, PB, Modulation, Portamento etc) to a single CV output. Not trying to sell you on anything here but for your purpose I'd opt for this over buying a CP-251. Plus it's a much cleaner solution imo.

[Al Coda]

I found the posted details on my mods from 2016 HERE.

 

thanks a lot !

I´ll make me a PDF from that and add to my Minimoog mods collection.

 

 

A.C.: I'm not familiar with the MP-101 interface.

 

It´s a solid piece of pro gear wich still workes flawlessly since I bought it new.

And yes, my Minimoog still has the keyboard and LH-controller attached.

 

Any way,- I just visited Rudi´s website looking for the announcement of the upcoming LMC-2 kit.

That´s great news !

I´ll probably sell the MPU-101 when the new LMC is available.

 

A.C.

[Al Coda]

You'll want a dedicated input jack on the Minimoog for keyboard pitch CV,...

 

That´s what I already have together w/ a +5V Gate/trigger input.

I also have keybd.-CV and Gate outputs.

 

... then route the MPU-101 Pitch-CV to that jack.

 

That´s what I do.

 

You can use a Moog CP-251 to mix the PB-CV and Modulation CV then send the mixer output to the Minimoog stock OSC and FILTER input jacks.

 

I already have a separate Modulation-CV input too,- so I´m able to connect PB-CV to stock OSC- and Modulation to THAT Mod-CV input.

 

Actually MOOG 1120 pedals go to stock Filter- and VCA-inputs.

 

The reason I suggest the CP-251 is that it has two mixer inputs that can process CVs, and as a bonus you can use the '251 input knobs to vary the depth of PB and modulation.

 

You won´t believe,- yesterday I went to Thomann website searching for the CP-251 by a different reason.

I always have the problem connecting MPU-101´s Aftertouch, Dynamics (velocity) and Volume CVs while having the MOOG 1120 pedals connected.

The CP-251 should do that trick.

 

According to all the extra CV-Ins I already have:

Some seem to be connected to some "wrong" destination" because portamento and keytracking doesn´t work w/ the MIDI/CV interface.

So, I´ll have to investigate if I can swap ´em easy to the above recommended destination, because all was done in the past by a tech who went out of biz and I have no clue what he did in detail.

 

But now, all might be obsolete when Rudi´s new LMC-2 is available.

Can´t wait for specs and price.

Can be I´ll have to remove many or all the old mods for the new LMC-2.

 

thx for all !

 

A.C.

 

[Al Coda]

 

... it would be quite a bit cheaper to replace your Roland with a Kenton Pro Solo MK 2 which does all the "mixing" of CVs (Note, PB, Modulation, Portamento etc) to a single CV output. Not trying to sell you on anything here but for your purpose I'd opt for this over buying a CP-251. Plus it's a much cleaner solution imo.

 

I thought about that too because the CP-251 for just only that purpose isn´t cheap.

But I see the CP-251 as a useful "wiss-army-knife"-like tool when working w/ CV controllable gear.

Additional LFO and S&H are welcome too.

 

A.C.

[Markyboard]

 

... it would be quite a bit cheaper to replace your Roland with a Kenton Pro Solo MK 2 which does all the "mixing" of CVs (Note, PB, Modulation, Portamento etc) to a single CV output. Not trying to sell you on anything here but for your purpose I'd opt for this over buying a CP-251. Plus it's a much cleaner solution imo.

 

I thought about that too because the CP-251 for just only that purpose isn´t cheap.

But I see the CP-251 as a useful "wiss-army-knife"-like tool when working w/ CV controllable gear.

Additional LFO and S&H are welcome too.

 

A.C.

 

No arguments here - I love mine and use it all the time. I just wasn't sure in which direction you wanted to go, budget etc.

 

Figuring out what you have in your Mini would be a very good first step. Getting back OT that's another negative about buying vintage gear imo; often you don't know where it's been, whom it been hanging out with and what fiendish things have been done to it

 

[Al Coda]

 

No arguments here - I love mine and use it all the time. I just wasn't sure in which direction you wanted to go, budget etc.

 

I contacted Rudi.

So, it will be the new LMC-2 replacing the Roland MPU-101 for my Minimoog.

In addition I´ll grab a Moog CP-251 and Minitaur later this year.

But before I do, I´ll have to find the right set of pedals for Minitaur,- possibly new version of Crumar Mojo pedals.

 

I also need a few parts for my Mini,- mastervolume pot and contact-wafers for waveform- and footage/octave-switches.

I hope Rudi can help.

 

 

A.C.

[Quai34]

About the Matrix 1000, In 2011, I bought mine 350 US$, then two years ago, the second one, 600 US$...I have them in stereo, slightly detuned, awesome sound, through a Lexicon MX200 dedicated to it...

[TomKittel]

About the Matrix 1000, In 2011, I bought mine 350 US$, then two years ago, the second one, 600 US$...I have them in stereo, slightly detuned, awesome sound, through a Lexicon MX200 dedicated to it...

 

Did you install the OS 1.20 update? To me it made all the difference. Back in the day I owned a Matrix 1000 and a 6r with the Access Programmer. But they were a pain to program because of their very slow OS. Sound programming was anything but fun back then. So I sold them. Only recently I picked up a white M1000 with the new OS installed. What a difference! And there is a affordable hardware controller available these days:

 

https://www.stereoping.com/synth-controller/?lang=en

 

 

 

[David Emm]

Back when I still bought serious hardware from time to time, I seemed to choose things based on the Infant Failure Mode of the prototype. If it ran for less than 24 hours before needing an intervention, I had one. Ah, precious memories! Which demanded reloading twice a day. Quai34 has the right idea, BTW. Nothing behooves a cheap/semi-cheap synth like a second one, running as a panned, effected pair. Been here, happily. It makes buying a few old vets like YamaKorgAnd modules more justifiable. If you feel prone to a certain moderate risk here and there, you should consider it. I learned a lot from going there and the sum of the parts was a huge thing of synth-y beauty.

 

[Quai34]

The stereo ping controller is awesome, I have this planned to be bought but as I'm playing with two bands, I 'be been postponing it as it's a pure studio stuff, I don't see myself tweaking the knobs live....But I will have one for sure, I don't know if it will be the small square one or the bigger one, but they will be in my tools in the future....

And yes, old stuff that nobody wanted 8/9 years ago are now getting back....And have their price increased on the market....

And yes, the guy who sold it to me installed the 1.2 version in the rom and I bought for 30$ the second 1.20 version Rom that I installed myself in the Mati X..., both works well now and same last update...

[Quai34]

About buying some very cheap synths, when the DSI Rev2 was released, there were a lot of cheap Tetra on the used market and because I couldn't justify the price of the new Rev2, I bought one Tetra and solved my polyphonic issue with my P08 when in layer mode....And I've also used it in studio with the same sound of the P08, in real stereo like the guy on the official DSI is doing.... Real stereo brings a lot to any sound...