Do you get DISCOURAGED by your idols?

[Steve LeBlanc]

I think people who are't discouraged by their 'idols' are messed up in the head and need a shrink

 

In general I really wish people would spend more time honestly evaluating themselves. There are a lot of big-headed no-talents clouding the waters of all forms of entertainment.

[offramp]

Originally posted by LanceMo:

We've been talking about Sting and one good thing is that if you listen back to those old Police records some of the songs are pretty weak. There was a huge growth in Mr. Sting's writing from 1978-1987. So that's a case where it's more inspiring then depressing.

Double-check the writing credits. Usually, the weaker ones were Copeland's and Summers' (with the exception of Stewart's "Does Everyone Stare"...awesome work). Remember, too, that there was a period where they put ANYTHING together just to have material. Zenyatta Modatta is just such an album. IIRC, it was recorded and mixed in something like 15 days.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc:

I think people who are't discouraged by their 'idols' are messed up in the head and need a shrink

 

In general I really wish people would spend more time honestly evaluating themselves. There are a lot of big-headed no-talents clouding the waters of all forms of entertainment.

True, but I don't think honest self-evaluation has to equate to being "discouraged" by your idols. I've never been discouraged by mine - not because I think I'm as good as they are, but because I've never treated music as a contest. A piece of music stands up as its own entity, or not. Comparing it to something else has never been very useful to me, even though I am quite tough on myself in terms of setting my own standards and evaluating myself according to them.

 

I'm with TheFunkMan - I'm far more discouraged by hearing crap than greatness.

[offramp]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

I've never been discouraged by mine -

Can't be discouraged looking at KEEF.

[Steve LeBlanc]

deleted because I really don't like this thread

[m2]

To be discouraged or humbled, or whatever you want to call it, is completely normal and to be expected, isn't it? Even the people that most of us are humbled by have those feelings, from what I've read. It may be best to try to not let it get you, or bring you down too far, since there's nothing you can really do about it (other than to do your best, and try harder), but it's still bound to happen now and then to most people I would think, especially sensitive artist types.

 

Why would anyone be discouraged by what they think is crap? Why would anyone give crap a second thought?

[skipclone 1]

Only because it`s so hard to escape it I think...

Anyway, it sounds Like Mr. LeBlanc is a perfectionist-gee, I`ll bet no one else here has that condition! I`m the worst, as soon as I get something recorded I want to go to the next project and do it RIGHT this time, ya know? In any case, let`s be clear-you`re talking about great songwriting, right? not about something that sounds so good because it was recorded on a corporate budget that only got repaid because the CD sold several million copies, right? Cool, so that means we`ll be seeing more of you on the songwriter`s forum-Xcellent. I totally believe that great songwritwers are great writers, they work in a musical meduim. Great writers have some things in common. They write, they keep a journal, they have one format for writing anything that pops into their minds, anytime, and another where they edit, rewrite and work it until it`s the way they want it. Musical ability alone ain`t gonna cut it.

[Steve LeBlanc]

Anyway, it sounds Like Mr. LeBlanc is a perfectionist

hmm...just to clarify, I wouldn't use the word perfectionist, I rarely retool my recordings/songs over and over until they're "perfect"....not my style. Imperfections are often the best parts of music...so in this case I'll redefine the word perfection to mean that the song/recording resonates with listeners on more than one level. Er, that doesn't fully explain what I mean either...I dunno...just don't want anyone to think I'm mulling over mistakes, out-of-tune notes, etc. Sometimes I do if they're detrimental to the overall vibe of the song but that's not what I'm focusing on.

 

AND a final word...I don't dwell on this stuff all the time...I have my moments but like I said earlier...it just reminds me I can do better. Great music is very humbling to someone who puts a lot of themselves into the music they make. I've been on the edge of giving up many times...recently even...but I haven't.

 

they have one format for writing anything that pops into their minds, anytime, and another where they edit, rewrite and work it until it`s the way they want it. Musical ability alone ain`t gonna cut it.

yep

[The Thrashole]

I think I get where you are going Steve. It is basically how I feel. There are guys out there that absolutely make you move. They challenge me to get better(great descriptive word)and help me to set my goals. The day a person quits trying to get better they start to decline. in my opinion.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc:

yeah well we are emotional human beings, discouragement is only natural unless you actively shelter yourself from it (because it can be painful)

Well I certainly can get discouraged by OTHER aspects of being a musician... like the financial part, and the state of the business. And I get discouraged artistically if I don't live up to my own standards. But this particular thing - being discouraged by listening to other people who are "better" than me - I really don't suffer from. I understand why other people do... just trying to explain why I don't.

 

OK, back on topic. Music isn't a contest but in the process of self-evaluation you have to compare it to something, whether it's music made by someone else (that you'd like to emulate or be inspired by) or something you did in the past.

Well I guess that's where I disagree. In evaluating my own music or even someone else's, I rarely compare it to anything else. I only think about whether it stands up on its own. If I'm writing a song, for example, I ask questions like "Did I really say what I intended to say?" "Does the structure actually go somewhere or does it need something else?" Etc. If I'm performing or recording, it's "Was this really a moving performance? If not, why not?" It doesn't really occur to me to ask "Is this as good as the Beatles?" or something. I don't really see what the point of that is.

 

Again, not a contest, we want to be the best we can be at whatever we choose to do right?

Sure. But why presume that what we are here to do and are best at, should be judged according to how someone else has already done it? If say, the Ramones had tried to judge themselves by how they compared to Hendrix, they wouldn't have had a career.

 

Maybe it's more of a philosophical difference. The way I look at it, music is the spark of the divine. I evaluate myself based on how good a "vessel" I feel I've been for that divine spark. Cuz there are several hundred things that can happen that could block that spark from getting across. And hell yes that can be humbling and discouraging. It's just that I presume that spark will manifest itself in each of us in different ways and therefore I don't get much out of worrying about what someone else does. I appreciate what they do for what it is, and I appreciate what I do for what it is IF I feel that I've put across what I wanted to. And if I haven't, I try to think what I could do to change that, which may or may not involve listening to something by someone else for inspiration, but that usually doesn't bum me out. I'm grateful to have such a rich palette out there to draw inspiration from.

 

Basically I'm just saying I have a ton of respect for music in general...so much so that I'm hardly ever satisfied with my contributions to it...sometimes but it's an ongoing struggle like most things in life.

Well on this, I agree with you!

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by m2:

Why would anyone be discouraged by what they think is crap? Why would anyone give crap a second thought?

I try not to, but it's everywhere... shopping centers, restaurants, etc... it can be hard to ignore even if you actively ignore it. And it's discouraging because it just serves as a reminder of how easily people are manipulated by those who are experts at manipulation.

 

I think most of us who play music because of a deep and abiding love for it, want to believe that others will recognize the difference between that divine spark I mentioned in my last post, and the creations of a record mogul calculated to make money. So it's very discouraging to be reminded that so many people don't. We'd all like to play for an audience who at least understands what we're trying to do and can therefore be a fair judge of whether we do it well or not. That's all anybody can ask as an artist, but those numbers are getting smaller, in many cases simply because mainstream radio and other large outlets have stopped exposing anybody to anything but their tightly calculated playlist.

 

So yes, I try to ignore it and I know there are lots of people who seek out new music elsewhere, but that doesn't mean it doesn't bum me out when I do have to hear crap.

[Steve LeBlanc]

deleted because I really don't like this thread

[Lee Flier]

LOL Steve... why not? I think it's pretty interesting.

[Steve LeBlanc]

yeah it is but some of what I posted was too personal to me to be permanently public...you read what I had to say, I was mostly talking to you...all done

[Dan South]

People over sixteen years of age shouldn't have idols.

[shniggens]

Originally posted by Dan South:

People over sixteen years of age shouldn't have idols.

Hmmmmmm . . . I think that they may be the best advice I've heard in a long time!

 

Does that mean I should take down my Brittany Spears posters?

[Dan South]

Originally posted by shniggens:

Originally posted by Dan South:

People over sixteen years of age shouldn't have idols.

Hmmmmmm . . . I think that they may be the best advice I've heard in a long time!

 

Does that mean I should take down my Brittany Spears posters?

Only if she's not naked.

 

[skipclone 1]

Well I just caught Dream Theater last night-talk about an intimidation test! it sure the hell reminded me to practice more but I didn`t walk away any more depressed than I had been. I know that sounds oblique but this year has been a bit of a pain in the butt...

[whitefang]

Who are your heros? When did they start their careers? What kind of music do they do? What kind of music are you referring to? These are relavent queries.

 

A friend of mine, classically trained guitarist, got heavy into jazz guitar in the early '70's. This guy can keep up and pass many of the jazz and jazz "fusion" players you can mention, if not handily pass them, but when trying to get anywhere with it, was told by promoters, managers and label suits that there was a "saturation" of "white boy" jazz players. By the time it looked like the field would open up for him, he had a family to support, and decided not to risk their welfare to attempt a music career.

 

Now, you may point to many white jazzmen that might be around his age(51), but most of them had already established themselves by the time he made his try, or had come later with nothing to lose. I dare say, as much of a hack I claim to be, I hear lyrics in music that I KNOW I had done better back in high school, set to music so static it amazes me the writer and artist ever got signed. But, it's been like that for years. Yet, I can't complain too much if I don't get off my ass and do something about it.

 

Whitefang

[BlueZet]

every now and then when I listen to Danny Gatton or Robben Ford, or... I get the feeling I'd better hang my guitar on the wall and take up knitting socks... then I remember I can't knit for shit, so I just keep playing

[skipclone 1]

Well here`s one thing, Whitefang alluded to it-you have to consider how good you would be if your job was to get good, not how good you are now but if you JOB was to be a smokin player. Not a teacher, not an engineer but a hot player. If given every opportunity to be really good, in knowledge if not technique you still couldn`t do it, maybe discouragement is a sign.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Yeah, the business things are the most discouraging for me. Like whenever I'm confronted with the fact that somebody has an actual *career*, that fucks me up... I try to rationalize that I can create art that is not subject to the straitjackets of these careers, but I do despair of having both...