Mic A Grand Piano

[Cabo]

I have an opportunity to play an excellent grand piano for one of my solo gigs and I'd really like to get a good recording of me playing it. I know that the mics I have are probably not the best for the job, but I'd like some opinions on the best way to mic the piano, given the limitations of what I've got to work with.

 

I've got 1 - SM57, 4 - SM58s, and a set of drum mics (including a pair of condenser overheads). Also, I have a multitrack recorder, so I could record more than 2 tracks, if that would improve the sound. Thanks in advance.

 

 

[emenelton]

I have an opportunity to play an excellent grand piano for one of my solo gigs and I'd really like to get a good recording of me playing it. I know that the mics I have are probably not the best for the job, but I'd like some opinions on the best way to mic the piano, given the limitations of what I've got to work with.

 

I've got 1 - SM57, 4 - SM58s, and a set of drum mics (including a pair of condenser overheads). Also, I have a multitrack recorder, so I could record more than 2 tracks, if that would improve the sound. Thanks in advance.

 

 

put your condensers on a stand~ 6-7 high ~ 6 from the piano or adjust closer to lessen ambience. Arrange them in the nos pattern, which means the caps are 20cms spaced and 90 degrees angled. Find a third large diaphragm condenser that you can switch to Omni and place it right at the tail of the piano inside and midway between the strings and the lid

[Mark Schmieder]

That's a good approach for a three-mic setup. So many ways to mic a piano, and there are some "special" ways that really are superior to all others (and give more downstream flexibility), but budgets matter. :-)

 

Having said that, you might want to see if there's somewhere nearby that you can rent a pair of Schoeps CMC's for a day. Might not be terribly expensive, in the context of what you're trying to achieve.

 

The CMC6's are called "wide cardioid" and so are sort of in between cardioid and omni, and are frequently used for high-end piano recordings. They are my personal favourites and I plan to buy a pair at some point, or maybe Peluso's tribute version.

 

Although it's all personal preference, regardless of your budget and using what you have vs. renting higher-end mics for the day, I highly recommend sticking with SDC vs. LDC designs for the condensers. I find they are less sensitive to exact positioning, and though they miss a little bit in the bottom in comparison, I feel the overall response is more even, they aren't subject to boom or bass buildup, and also blend better with a third mic. IMO.

[Mark Schmieder]

The brand and model of piano could have an impact on best mic choice as well, as there can be quite a difference in bass response, as well as projection, based on any number of factors (brand, size, etc.).

 

Three mics is sort of a minimum though, as I learned the hard way years ago when I went for simple stereo recording.

 

And though I'm hesitant to recommend something I haven't yet done myself, there are some M/S techniques that might give more flexibility in the final result as well. For a full-frequency-range like acoustic piano (for one), that can really be advantageous.

[emenelton]

large diaphragm condensers With switchable Omni pattern are real common everywhere and would be a good 3rd mic for the tail of the piano

 

[llatham]

I have an opportunity to play an excellent grand piano for one of my solo gigs and I'd really like to get a good recording of me playing it.

 

 

How much ambient noise is there going to be?

 

Here are some recordings I did with a Stereo pair of Large Diaphragm Condenser Mics set up in a spaced pair (A-B) position:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Hommages-Musicaux-Tributes-Debussy-Faure/dp/B000PFUATQ/ref=ntt_mus_ep_dpi_6

 

Any of the ones marked Andrey Kasparov or Oksana Lutsyshyn are solo Piano recored this way (not live - in an empty concert hall).

 

You may need Amazon Prime to hear them.

 

AKG 414C mics, in Cardioid, into an API 512 mic pre, direct to pro tools. No EQ, no mastering, that's it. Mics were about 1 foot away from the edge of the piano about 4 feet up, open lid, so you're getting strings, hammers, soundboard, and a bit of reflection of the inside of the top, which was full stick. Steinway D.

 

I did a set of 4 CDS with them as well but many of the pieces were 2 Pianos, though there is one that is piano 4 hands so it's just a single piano recorded the same way.

 

You can look up "Ivencia Piano Duo" with "Florent Schmitt" as the composer and you'll get one of the 4.

 

I would, if I were you, go ahead and set up all the mics as long as it's not distracting to the audience, and record as many tracks as you can - that way if one pair doesn't work, you'll have options for mixing and matching other pairs or trios etc. later.

 

When NPR came to record our same piano for Performance Today, he did the same basic setup I did but added a nice old vintage tube mic down at the "point" of the piano - so it was opposite the player and pointing directly at them, sort of aimed into the small angle the lid produces there.

 

It sounded amazing. Don't know if he used it on the final edit though - or just blended it in.

 

It's really going to depend on how much audience noise you're going to have.

 

If there's a lot of audience noise or other ambient noise, you need to get closer and even inside the piano. Problem is, it can get too much thump from the hammers, or even damper noise at it moves up and down - even pedal noise, or you can get weird reflections of the top, or you know if you use something like a 57 or 58, you're going to get "pinpoint" sounds sometimes - like you're upper register and lower register will pick up well, but the middle might be dead because you don't have a mic there.

 

You also may not want 5 ot 6 mic stands around the piano...

 

So I'd go with just the stereo pair if possible. Bring some good headphones, set up the mics, do a quick test recording and see what kind of sound you're getting - make sure you're not going to clip.

 

I had the luxury of spending a good amount of time doing some test recordings to get the sound the artists wanted and you may not have that - so you may just have to set it and go.

 

Read up a little on stereo recording techniques. Don't bother with "mid side" it's more trouble than it's worth for this.

 

Spaced Pair (A-B) or ORTF will probably do fine and give the most accurate sound.

 

Oh, FWIW, when I started recording classical artists I wanted the recording to sound like it would sound from a listener's perspective.

 

The players themselves are so used to hearing things from their perspective it sounds "funny" to them if it's not recorded "in your face" like they hear it - coming right back at them from the inside of the piano. So take this into consideration. I used those API pre-amps because they're rather "pushy" and while considered "the sound of rock" in many respects, it gave the players the sound they were used to while still getting "the whole piano" perspective on recording.

 

I saw a statement online once: How do you mic a piano? The response was "how do you take a picture of Mt. Fuji?

 

[Cabo]

I guess I'm looking to do the best I can with what equipment I've got. This is a live recording at a "cocktail hour" type of atmosphere (the audience could be talking loudly at some points, but they probably won't be right next to the piano). I think it's a Steinway Grand, if memory serves.

 

I hope this helps.

 

[emenelton]

I guess I'm looking to do the best I can with what equipment I've got. This is a live recording at a "cocktail hour" type of atmosphere (the audience could be talking loudly at some points, but they probably won't be right next to the piano). I think it's a Steinway Grand, if memory serves.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Use the 2 condensers in nos or ortf at the bow beg borrow or steal any cheap lcd to put at the tail

[Dave Ferris]

I guess I'm looking to do the best I can with what equipment I've got. This is a live recording at a "cocktail hour" type of atmosphere (the audience could be talking loudly at some points, but they probably won't be right next to the piano). I think it's a Steinway Grand, if memory serves.

 

I hope this helps.

 

You know you might consider renting some mics and a good pre. No offense but I don't think you are going to be happy with the sound of those Shures.

 

I would look to rent a pair of the best quality small diaphragm condensers you can afford. Especially if there's going to people in the vicinity of the piano. Large diaphragm require more expertise in placement and are highly dependent on the room quality, in addition to being sensitive to ambient room noise -- which it sounds like you are going to have a lot of.

 

I already had the good mics (DPA 4011s ), which I spent a large chunk of dough on but I rented different preamps from Vintage King and one other place here in town whose name escapes me.

 

I tried different placements but in the end I was the most satisfied with getting right up on the hammers.

 

in the end, the order of importance is :

1) the player

2) the instrument

3) the mics (and placement)

4) the pre amp

5) AD converters

 

I certainly don't consider myself a crack engineer but having the great instrument , excellent mics , top notch pre and ADC - most of my home recording came out pretty decent.

 

Good luck with it.

 

I tried the 414s, good mics. Especially if you rent. I'd run them in cardiod position though for this specific case.

 

One last thought -- you could consider hiring a remote engineer with a laptop and all the gear to come in and do it. It would be an investment but it depends how important the recording is to you. If it's just something you want for grins, probably not worth the investment.

[Mark Schmieder]

Exactly. If available, rentals are the best way to go about this. I feel more strongly about this now than when I first suggested it, as there frankly aren't all that many mics that do a good job on piano, and by now they've pretty much all been mentioned in this thread.

 

Also consider Neumann U87's (or related models), if you're determined to go the LDC route (some people really feel it essential for maximum "body", but I'm not one of them).

 

Dave has reinforced what I said about using SDC's vs. LDC's, but he did a better job of describing why. I was focused mostly on the tendency towards boom buildup, which is a result of the things Dave talks about.

 

DPA 4011's are a very good choice, but especially when using just 2-3 mics, I think the Schoeps CMC6's (or equivalent "tribute" model) will give a bit more downstream mixing flexibility with their "wide cardioid" pickup pattern and high level of detail and imaging. Might be a bit harder to find an available rental though. They're a bit cleaner (especially self-noise) yet also less clinical than DPA's.

 

Regarding the 414's, don't forget that AKG has confused matters by having so many variations as well as inconsistency over the years. It might become fairly intimidating to sort out which ones are on offer, but any competent rental house should know which ones are for piano vs. voice or drums.

[Dave Ferris]

This might have come and gone but seeing your location and if you're serious about getting a quality recording - I'd consider renting a room at Eastman ( do they have a recording studio ? ) and hiring whoever they use to record school concerts. That way you'd hopefully get a good piano, with decent room acoustics and not have to worry about the tech stuff, just play. It might all be moot at this juncture though.

 

And yes to some, Schoeps can be a tad less clinical then the DPAs. Although one person's too clinical can be another person's deadly accurate. Among engineers , the DPA vs Schoeps might be one of the most debated mic topics you'll see. Huge fans of both.

[Mark Schmieder]

Yep, me too. I'm going to buy the Schoeps first (hopefully next year) and the DPA's after that. Two of the best mics on the market. And each piano might take differently to one vs. the other, but you can't go wrong with either.

 

Earthworks has recently made some piano specialty mics, but I think they are more for live use (e.g. the "Piano Bar" mic model that sits across the frame of the instrument and has mini-capsules along the bar). Otherwise their offerings are similar to DPA's, but my co-workers prefer the DPA's. As it's second-hand info, I'm not going to say why, as it is unsubstantiated.

 

Earthworks are a really nice bunch of people, and are located in semi-rural New Hampshire. I enjoy talking to them at trade shows. I'm not sure if their mics are as easy to find at rental houses, but they're a good choice if available.

[Theo Verelst]

Those special brand mics I've looked at and heard demos of reminded me mainly sample reconstruction errors, and their inability to prevent them.

 

Long ago I did (simple) piano recording and the main thing that stuck with me while things were going digital is that it's a lot of work to make a sound design. A lot of modern recording to me do not sound right because the purpose is a sort of double negative proposition, resulting from conflicting dreams. A reasonable piano digital sound recording needs to deal with two main issues beyond the obvious (tonal balance, good sound, well played, no distracting sound disturbances): human perception of the piano and reverberation preparation. The first *can* be done by putting mikes at a normal listening position, the second mst cannot do except with trial and error.

 

If you have time, listening to a test person playing the piano in another room via monitoring using alternatively digital or analog mixing can be revelatory if you're new to it. An all analog signal path will reveal which signal elements your piano, ambiance and microphones are going to be recorded. Listening digital reveals how that's going to sound once someone plays back the digital recording, and that migh well sound different in more than one way..

 

T