Mighty Ferguson Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 I do sympathize with the Curtis family, but isn't the whole point of the patent system to offer a limited time monopoly for the inventor with the invention deliberately becoming public domain? Quote "If you can't dazzle them with dexterity, baffle them with bullshit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeVtheRipper Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 And also if they're going to remake an OB poly why not the OBX? Isn't it considered more desirable than the XA what with the SEM architecture at its core? Even looking on eBay you can find XA's for half the price as an X, if you can find an X at all. I'd like to see them try and remake a Prophet 5 and see if Dave takes that lying down. Quote 1974 Rhodes, CP70B, Polivoks, Dominion 1, Behringer D, Mother 32, DFAM, MS20 Mini, Folktek Mescaline, Nord Lead 2x, KArp Odyssey, Jv1080, Digitakt, Hydrasynth, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 ^ Probably because an OBX voice card employed discrete VCOs and filters instead of Curtis chips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aronnelson Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 > OBX voice card employed discrete VCOs and filters instead of Curtis chips HAHAHA you are right. I forgot about this. Quote Korg Kronos, Roland RD-88, Korg Kross, JP8000, MS2000, Sequential Pro One, Micromoog, Yamaha VL1, author of unrealBook for iPad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillNeverPost Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 By my reading nothing that Mary Curtis said above and what Uli Behringer has said (here) contradict each other. I'm sure there's no question of the legality of what Uli is doing and it IS fully in the spirit of patent law, as Mighty Ferguson says. Now, whether you have an ethical objection to it is a personal choice. Similarly, whether you think that Behringer can make a reliable product or not (notice that I didn't actually state a position on that in this thread). You are free to vote your conscience and your opinion on those issues with your pocket book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Now, whether you have an ethical objection to it is a personal choice. Could not agree more. My personal belief is there is a way to conduct business. Here's an example - the caption attached to a photograph of a new DSI synth, from the Curtis Electromusic Specialities' Facebook page: "A photo from NAMM 2017: some years ago Dave Smith asked for the familys blessing to use the Curtis name on the filter module which contains chips designed by Doug and manufactured by OnChip Systems, the successor company to Curtis Electromusic. We are so happy to have Dave extending Dougs technology for new generations of musicians." And I remember when it was announced (as in this article ), that Yamaha graciously granted the Sequential Circuits name back to Dave Smith - first line of the story: "In an unprecedented gesture of good will, Yamaha Corporation and its President, Takuya Nakata, have granted possession of the Sequential brand back to its original owner and company founder, Dave Smith. To say that Im grateful would be putting it mildly, said Smith. Generosity at this level is almost unheard of in todays corporate climate. These kinds of things matter to me, and they become part of my purchase decision choices. Everyone gets to decide what matters most to them; but I think it's worth talking about the occasions when people do what I consider to be the highest and best thing. Now, full disclosure, I teach classes on business ethics, the role of ethical stakeholders, and that sort of thing. Maybe that's why I think about this stuff in a particular way. I want to be careful not to point fingers at anyone else's purchase decision - but I do think we are all better off when people of influence and power make the highest and best ethical business decisions. Just my 0.02. Tim Quote .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Ferguson Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 So Tim, out of curiosity (especially with your teaching business ethics), is there a way that Behringer could do a less expensive version of these classic synths that you feel would be in line with common business ethics? I would have to assume they would not get any sort of blessing from Moog/Oberheim/Curtis. To be clear, I'm not trying to make any point with this question, just genuinely curious about how black and white this area is, or if it's a gray area at all given how old some of these designs are. Quote "If you can't dazzle them with dexterity, baffle them with bullshit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 That's a great question, and not saying I have the right answer, or any kind of corner on the market on business ethics. I mean, there's a reason we now have to teach an ethics component in virtually EVERY class in the common business curricula - the same reason we have Sarbannes Oxley - because "business ethics" is often an oxymoron. That being said, I resonate with the comments that Tom Oberheim is still alive, and Dave Curtis' widow and daughters are still alive. Dave Smith took the initiative to reach out to them. Mary Curtis could have said "no". Tom Oberheim could have said "not interested". And for that matter, Takuya Nakata could have replied, "Certainly, if you pay us $xxxxxx..." In other words, OnChip is hearing about this from alarmed customers. I'm assuming (from sheer ignorance) that neither Coolaudio nor Uli Behringer reached out to them (inferred from the tone of the OnChip / Mary Curtis statement). Has Uli Behringer spoken to Tom Oberheim about any of the above...since Tom is still alive, and easily reachable? To be clear, I'm certainly NOT saying that Behringer, et.al., have any LEGAL obligation per se, reason for patents and IP and such, etc. Which I don't disagree with. But I suppose my thoughts, and what I try to teach (to both my sons and my students) - is this how you would teach your children to conduct themselves in business? Perhaps an antiquated, parochial measuring stick. But that's my measuring stick. All the old outdated sentiments about being able to look yourself in the eye in the mirror when you're 75, that kind of thing. No, it doesn't appear to me that Behringer is doing any illegal here, with the very little I have read here and elsewhere. But legal and ethical are always two related, though distinct, topics of exploration. I know this doesn't answer your question very satisfactorily., sorry for that. But I do think the conversation is very much worth having - as long as we can remain civil and human in all this. Tim Quote .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aronnelson Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 This is interesting. The patents have expired and everyone involved knew that would happen eventually. They all participated knowing this. If recreating an OBX was so important to Tom, he could have done this long ago but he didn't. Now the ARP 2600 - I am not sure about that one. It will be interesting to see the talk between Behringer and Korg. I'm guessing the keyboards might be a "clone" but only in the same say that Studio Electronics made minimoog-like modules etc... I really doubt it's going to look like an OB-X at all. I may be way off base though. For me, unless it's laid out the same and looks similar it loses a lot for me. Quote Korg Kronos, Roland RD-88, Korg Kross, JP8000, MS2000, Sequential Pro One, Micromoog, Yamaha VL1, author of unrealBook for iPad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Remember the DM-12 started its life as a Juno 106 clone and migrated from there. I think it's safe to say that it is a keyboard all its own and not a clone of anything at this point. If it ends up "cloning" the filters or the oscillators, how is that any different from the hundreds of synths over the years that offer multiple filter emulations to mimic certain filters? If it is an exact replica including the name, offering no new features, that's a different story - though as mentioned, Tom Oberheim has had many decades to re-release an OBXa if he wanted to. Since when is it unethical to fill an open market space? We aren't talking about undercutting a CURRENT product with a copy made with cheaper parts and labor, as Chinese knockoff companies do every day. We're talking about a space that's been open for, what - 35 years? Quote Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveCoscia Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 For me, unless it's laid out the same and looks similar it loses a lot for me. Me too. Maybe Behringer will remake a Chroma someday... always wanted one. Quote Steve Coscia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doerfler Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 because "business ethics" is often an oxymoron. Interestingly enough I was thinking exactly this when I read your previous post, Tim, then I kept reading the thread and you brought it up yourself in your next post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Patents and copyrights create a legal monopoly for the owner. The owner is granted, for a length of time established by law, exclusivity as to the market and pricing of the product, presumably long enough to recoup development costs and provide sufficient profit from his/her creation. But the expiration is designed to protect the consumer, who ultimately should pay market, not monopoly, prices. So when the patent for a drug expires, the generic drug companies come in and sell the same product at a fraction of the previous price--THAT'S A GOOD THING. Same is true with the many store brands and knockoffs you see everywhere. If someone happens to infringe, then it's up to the patent/copyright owner to take necessary action. But as a consumer it should be of no concern. Why fret about legal phantoms that dont involve you? I knew an importer of microphones who said a principal from Neumann would plop a cease and desist letter at every trade show booth that marketed anything thing resembling a Neumann product. The letter was impotent, but was their way of bullying/threatening. In Neumanns view, those large diaphragm mics should cost $3,000, not $300. I notice people dont seem as concerned when some startup/kick starter comes out with a cloned Mini Moog, ARP 2600, CS80, etc, but when Behringer does it, suddenly theres gnashing of teeth. A feel good, Samson v. Goliath-based ethics is groundless, IMO. Heres a Moog Prodigy recreation that just hit. http://www.synthanatomy.com/2017/03/ensure-sound-released-prodigy-er-16.html Busch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 because "business ethics" is often an oxymoron. Interestingly enough I was thinking exactly this when I read your previous post, Tim, then I kept reading the thread and you brought it up yourself in your next post. Yup, Dave. It appears I'm clearly a minority opinion on this one, which isn't surprising. Tim Quote .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doerfler Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Heres a Moog Prodigy recreation that just hit. http://www.synthanatomy.com/2017/03/ensure-sound-released-prodigy-er-16.html Except (taken from the eBay page) " The synthesizer PRODIGY ER-16 does not sound worse as original. On the contrary, it sounds just excellent." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aronnelson Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 > Maybe Behringer will remake a Chroma someday... always wanted one If you are serious, I think that there's a place in the SF bay area with lots of them. They approached me once about it and said they had a bunch of them lying around I guess. Quote Korg Kronos, Roland RD-88, Korg Kross, JP8000, MS2000, Sequential Pro One, Micromoog, Yamaha VL1, author of unrealBook for iPad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PianoMan51 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 > Maybe Behringer will remake a Chroma someday... always wanted one I auditioned a Chroma 2-3 months before the DX-7 came out. Bought the DX, and it did me great service, but I really regret not having spent the $5k or so to get the Chroma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markay Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 I am really confused about the application of business ethics to the MI industry. When discussing semi-conductors, replicating circuit designs that have long been in the public domain raises serious ethical issues, while in the organ world there is wide ranging support for any one who can best clone the original. Never once have I read that anyone has ethical issues in buying something that replicates a B3 nor has anyone suggested Nord, Korg, Roland, Crumar et al should politely ask Hammond Suzuki for permission to clone their IP, which has also long been in the public domain. Do some refuse to buy a DP that clones the sound of a C7 unless the manufacturer has written permission from Yamaha? Quote A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markyboard Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Good point Mark. My feeling is using new/different technology from the original is fair game; duplicating an existing schematic part for part, or gate for gate in an IC chip/ASIC or line for line if we're talking code isn't. Of course there's everything in between and thus the gray area. A digital version of a true tonewheel organ is OK as is a VST. But copy someone's VST code, not too good. One thing that stuck from my annual mandatory ethics training is to listen to your gut; if it feels wrong or slightly questionable, it probably is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markyboard Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Maybe Behringer will remake a Chroma someday... always wanted one. One thing for certain, Behringer will NEVER clone the Nord Lead. Way too easy to identify the real thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 > Maybe Behringer will remake a Chroma someday... always wanted one I auditioned a Chroma 2-3 months before the DX-7 came out. Bought the DX, and it did me great service, but I really regret not having spent the $5k or so to get the Chroma. My favorite synth of all time. Mine went up in flames when the music store my band was practicing in burned down. Hell, I'd be happy if someone created a good VST copy with accurate programs. Quote This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spotting Jonah Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 because "business ethics" is often an oxymoron. It appears I'm clearly a minority opinion on this one, which isn't surprising. Perhaps, but certainly not alone. It's tough to apply universally, though, or else you spend all your time researching companies and product design, and not enough time living. It's a delicate balance, but I'm with you. The world would be a better place if this mattered to more people. That's MY $.02!! :-) Quote ~ That guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Not sure if this has been shared elsewhere (my search only turned up this thread) but Behringer has announced the UB-Xa Quote Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Fascinating. http://www.synthanatomy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/UB-Xa_P0XXX_Top-Front.jpg Quote When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan_evett Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Not sure if this has been shared elsewhere (my search only turned up this thread) but Behringer has announced the UB-Xa Yes ! Quote 'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo. We need a barfing cat emoticon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Fascinating. http://www.synthanatomy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/UB-Xa_P0XXX_Top-Front.jpg A) That mockup photo was posted by another user, not Behringer. B) They are at the initial stages of development, this is going to take a while. C) Uli is starting to sound more like Elon Musk. Busch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doerfler Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Not sure if this has been shared elsewhere (my search only turned up this thread) but Behringer has announced the UB-Xa looks like a 2019/2020 release date. I guess Grey will keep us informed of this developing situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomKittel Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Should we call him Elon Behringer or Uli Musk? ;-)) Quote LIFE IS SHORT, GO GET THE GEAR YOU WANT ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Should we call him Elon Behringer or Uli Musk? Uli Muskinger. Quote When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardware Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Ill be getting Shears OB-X. The newest model has significant upgrades according to the latest pdf. Ulli's CAT sounds nice though. Quote Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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