Nord MIDI brain teaser

[Heartbeat]

I have a strange Midi situation and I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced something like this. I have a Nord Stage2 as my main board on the bottom and an Electro 3 on the top. I have the Midi out of the Stage connected to the Midi in of the E3, so that I can use one set of foot pedals to control things like expression, sustain and rotary for both instruments. Problem #1: I can not find a midi Note ON-OFF filter on either keyboard. So I have to use either a Pocket Filter or Midi Solutions box to filter out the NoteOn-OFF information between the instruments. Problem #2: When I insert the Midi Filter box between the two keyboards, there is not enough voltage coming from the Nord S2 for the Midi Solutions filter box to work correctly. So, my work around is to insert my Alesis Nanobass module in the midi chain first, come out of the THRU port and then into the Midi Solutions filter box. To me, this is quite a work around to get to me, what seems like a simple Midi problem solved. I know it's not the Midi Solution box because I've used a Roland keyboard as my main controller and it works fine.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[mate stubb]

Maybe plug pedals into a pedal to midi box, then in to the Stage. If the Stage has a Midi thru, use that to connect to the Electro and you should have only pedal messages from the thru.

[J. Dan]

He'd have the same issue with the Nords not powering the Midi Solutions box.

 

They make a Power Supply for situations like this.

[Heartbeat]

Yes, I saw they made a Power Supply for the Midi Solutions box, but my Aleseis seems to be doing the same function. Ideally I'd like to just use one midi cable between the two boards. Right now when I do that, not only am I getting note on-off data being passed through, but also drawbar information passed from the Stage to the Electro. I'm not very good with this Midi stuff and takes a whole lot of trial and error before I can take a rig out on an actual gig. Lol

[J. Dan]

They make sustain pedals with 2 outputs that can connect to 2 keyboards at the same time. I'm not aware of swell pedals like that, but in theory, you could replace the pot with a dual-gang pot of the same value and control 2 boards at the same time directly rather than using MIDI....depending on how handy you are with a soldering iron, etc.

 

Edit: A stereo volume pedal could possibly be used.

[JeffLearman]

To use a stereo volume pedal, just use the Strymon trick to use an analog volume pedal as an expression pedal. Of course, do the trick twice, once for each keyboard, one on each "side".

 

The response curve might not match the response curve of your expression pedal, but it should be workable.

 

I don't understand how using NS2's THRU port with the Nanobass could work, unless you're also connecting the pedals to the Nanobass. Stuff you do on the NS2 shouldn't appear on its THRU port.

 

 

[J. Dan]

I don't understand how using NS2's THRU port with the Nanobass could work, unless you're also connecting the pedals to the Nanobass. Stuff you do on the NS2 shouldn't appear on its THRU port.

 

 

The way I read it, he's going OUT of the NS2, IN to the Nanobass, THRU from the Nanobass - to the MIDI Filter - IN to the Electro. So the Nanobass Thru port powers the Midi Filter.

[Heartbeat]

Correct J. There isn't a thru port on the Stage2.

[JeffLearman]

Aha. I read "first" as "first", not "first after the NS2." It makes sense now, thanks!

[Bill Spencer]

I bet you could just Y the sustain pedal. Possibly also for the expression. Wouldn't hurt to try.

[Heartbeat]

Yes to Y the sustain pedal and to the rotary pedal. I'm actually doing that now, but neglected to tell you as not to complicate my description of the original problems. I'm using an FC-7 pedal for expression. Don't know if that could be Y'ed.

[stoken6]

A couple of thoughts:

1. Could you use the NS2's Extern section to send MIDI to the E3? If you (can) zone it out of the way somewhere where you're not going to hit the notes, it will just sit there sending CC information (sustain, rotary, swell etc.)

2. Can the E3 power the MIDI filter box? If so, run it in reverse: connect the pedals to the E3, you can get the E3 to transmit on the NS2's global channel, and filter out everything except pedals.

 

I've tried the Y thing with pedals and it doesn't seem to work well with my NS2. (Worked fine with an Alesis QS6.2 and the same lower board, so go figure...)

 

Cheers, Mike.

[J. Dan]

Don't Y the expression pedal - that could cause damage as each board supplies a voltage on one of those connectors. Don't recall the "polarity" but either tip or ring is the voltage supplied to one end of the pot from the keyboard, the other is the wiper supplying variable voltage back (sleeve is ground). It's possible it could work if you cut the wire going to one of them that is the supply voltage and only connect ground and the wiper so that only one board supplies the voltage and wiper and ground go to both.

[Heartbeat]

Ha Mike, I think I'll have to revisit option #1. Don't know about the Electro providing enough power for the filter box. I think it's inherent in all Nords.

[JeffLearman]

I recommend against using a Y to connect one pedal (sustain OR expression) to two keyboards. As J.Dan says, both keyboards will supply voltage to the same point, and it might not be the same voltage. Keyboards aren't designed to have to fight another keyboard's power supply to sustain that voltage, if they're different.

 

With two Nords, chances are good the nominal voltages are the same, but nominal voltages are not actual voltages.

 

It might seem to work just fine, but you don't know how much current you're drawing, or how much current the keyboard's voltage output is designed to handle.

 

It also might work just fine and not damage the keyboards. It depends on how paranoid the designers were.

 

It could cause or exacerbate ground loops. Of course, if you can't hear it, it's not a problem, so this is a minor issue.

 

 

With Normally Open sustain pedals, you can use a Y cable to connect two pedals to the same jack on a keyboard. No such luck the other way around.

[Heartbeat]

Thanks for all the input guys. Don't think I'll mess with the FC7 pedal. I tried to fix a broken one once, and couldn't even get the thing apart!

[JeffLearman]

It's possible it could work if you cut the wire going to one of them that is the supply voltage and only connect ground and the wiper so that only one board supplies the voltage and wiper and ground go to both.

Hmmm, that might work, with only the ground loop issue. Ditto for sustain pedals.

[Dr88s]

I don't mean to hijack the thread but the thread title just begs questions about Nords and MIDI.

 

I may soon move to a Receptor based system. I'm considering options for a controller, I'm thinking of maybe an old Electro so I get waterfall keys and I'd have the added benefit of onboard sounds on the Electro itself as a backup in case the Receptor goes down.

 

With the NE5 set for release, presumably the price of used NE2s and NE3s will fall soon, so it might be a good time to pick one up.

 

When in organ mode, do older Nord Electro drawbuttons send MIDI CC messages; if so, I could map them to VB3. Thanks in advance for any input.

 

 

[J. Dan]

Nord Electro parameter - MIDI CC

Drawbars - Preset 2/Upper

Drawbar 1 - 16

Drawbar 2 - 17

Drawbar 3 - 18

Drawbar 4 - 19

Drawbar 5 - 20

Drawbar 6 - 21

Drawbar 7 - 22

Drawbar 8 - 23

Drawbar 9 - 24

Drawbars - Preset 1/Lower

Drawbar 1 - 70

Drawbar 2 - 71

Drawbar 3 - 72

Drawbar 4 - 73

Drawbar 5 - 74

Drawbar 6 - 75

Drawbar 7 - 76

Drawbar 8 - 77

Drawbar 9 - 78

Organ Model Sel - 9

Preset/Manual Sel - 3

Perc Decay - 88

Perc Level - 89

Sustain Pedal - 64

Control Pedal - 11

Rotary Speed - 82

Rotary Stop Mode - 79

Vib Mode - 84

Vib On/Off Preset 2/UP - 85

Vib On/Off Preset 1/LOW (B3 model) - 117

Perc On/Off - 87

Perc Hard - 95

Samp Attack Sel - 33

Samp Release Sel - 34

Clav EQ Brill On/Off - 103

Clav EQ Treble On/Off - 104

Clav EQ Medium On/Off - 105

Clav EQ Soft On/Off - 106

Inst Sel (Organ/Piano) - 13

Piano Type - 12

Piano Model - 44

Piano Mono - 83

Piano Dynamics - Electro 3 HP only - 99

Acoustics - Electro 3 HP only - 98

Oct Shift Organ Upper - 27

Oct Shift Organ Lower - 28

Oct Shift Piano - 29

EQ On/Off - 115

EQ Treble - 113

EQ Mid - 116

EQ Mid Freq - 117

EQ Bass - 114

Gain - 7

Effect 1 Rate - 63

Effect 1 Sel - 60

Effect 1 On/Off - 69

Effect 2 Rate - 62

Effect 2 Sel - 61

Effect 2 On/Off - 80

Speaker/Comp Drive - 111

Speaker/Comp Sel - 81

Speaker/Comp On/Off - 86

Reverb Wet/Dry - 102

Reverb Sel - 96

Reverb On/Off - 97

Delay Rate - Electro 3 HP only - 92

Delay Ping Pong - Electro 3 HP only - 93

Delay On/Off - Electro 3 HP only - 94

 

 

MIDI Mapping

You can assign your MIDI controllers to

any of the available controls using the MIDI Learn

function. It's very easy: just right-click on a knob or

switch of your choice. A menu should pop-up. The first

item shows the control's name, the second item shows

the MIDI CC# currently associated to that control, the

last item activates the MIDI Learn status. Click on "MIDI

Learn", the tooltip text should say "Waiting for incoming

MIDI data...". Now move a knob/slider/whatever on your physical controller. At this point you

should see the virtual control following the movements of the physical control. To abort the

"wait state" click on the first menu item, and to reset the assigned control (MIDI Forget) click

the second menu item.

The MIDI Map is automatically stored when you quit the plugin in a file named

"{name_of_the_dll}.dat" located in the same directory where the DLL file resides. This is a

plain text file, but please don't edit it manually.

Please note: MIDI Controllers respond on all Channels, so be sure that your controller sends

all controls with the same channel, or else you'll find two different physical controls (knobs,

faders, etc.) moving the same parameters on the screen, or a single physical control moving

more than one parameter on screen.

Plase also note that VB3:

- doesn't allow assignment of CC# 0;

- doesn't respond to Pitch Bend messages, or maybe it does... who knows;

- responds on CC#120 & CC#123 for "All Notes Off" (muting and reset).

[Dr88s]

J.Dan

 

Thanks for the info.

Can I presume that the keyboard TRANSMITS these CCs and not just responds to them, and can I presume that older models with drawbuttons will behave the same way?

[J. Dan]

I got that out of the NE3 manual online - I'd just check the other manuals to verify. It's at the end just before the MIDI implementation chart, which shows both transmit and receive.

[Dr88s]

Super. Will do. Thanks.

 

If any forumites with an NE2 or NE3 want to check this out for me in real time with a MIDI monitor, you would have my sincerest gratitude.

[Dr88s]

Confirmed in NE2 manual.

 

7. MIDI FUNCTIONS

ABOUT THE MIDI IMPLEMENTATION

The following MIDI messages can be transmitted and received from Nord Electro 2:

 

...

 

CONTROLLERS

 

...

 

All other controls (knobs and buttons) on the front panel (except MASTER LEVEL), are also transmitted

and received as Control Change messages. This can be used to record your actions on the

front panel into a MIDI sequencer. For a full list of which parameters correspond to which Controller

number, see the MIDI implementation chapter on page 45.

[OB Dave]

Sorry, I'm late to the party (as usual) but here's my two cents:

 

first penny: Do not Y the cables. In doing so, you're tying both ground and Vcc supply voltage of the two instruments together, and you don't know that ground and Vcc are at the exact same potential. In fact, they're not. Best case scenario, you're setting yourself up for a potential ground loop. Even if you don't hear it at home, you may hear it at a gig, or if you reverse one of the AC cords. There might also be some other weird interactions. Just not a good idea.

 

second penny: there's a reason the Alesis can power the MIDI solutions box and the Nord can't. The Alesis, being an older device, is surely running the MIDI bus at 5 volts. This is what the spec calls for, but everyone and their brother seems to be running MIDI at 3.3 volts these days, because that's what most modern microcontrollers use for the Vcc supply voltage. This includes all Nords made in the last few years. And the MIDI Solutions won't run off a 3.3v MIDI bus.

 

Dr88s: yes, the Nords transmit these CCs when you run the drawbuttons up and down. Also when you change vib/chorus and percussion settings.

[Heartbeat]

OB Dave thanks for clarifying the voltage issue. Scoured the Stage manual again last night and I think I found a way to get the expression, sustain and rotary to work via the External Section by setting the keyboard to no range for Note on-off information.

That would leave one dilemma. Moving the drawbar buttons on the Stage causes the draw buttons on the Electro to move. Any idea how I could stop that from happening?

[Dr88s]

OB Dave - Who better to answer me! Thanks.

[JeffLearman]

With the NE5 set for release, presumably the price of used NE2s and NE3s will fall soon, so it might be a good time to pick one up.

Yeah, good luck with that. NE2 prices haven't fallen much since after NE3 came out, not any that I noticed when NE4 arrived. But there's always hope!

 

Prices on NE4's will probably drop, and NE3's maybe a bit.

[JeffLearman]

OB Dave thanks for clarifying the voltage issue. Scoured the Stage manual again last night and I think I found a way to get the expression, sustain and rotary to work via the External Section by setting the keyboard to no range for Note on-off information.

That would leave one dilemma. Moving the drawbar buttons on the Stage causes the draw buttons on the Electro to move. Any idea how I could stop that from happening?

I think you're out of luck there, and not just for drawbars, but for all controls (changing patches unless you can defeat sending patch changes on the Nord, percussion, scanner, FX, patch volume, drive, etc.)

[JeffLearman]

This may not meet all your goals, but to get a 2-manual organ, I'd just set one Nord to be the "other manual" for the other Nord.

 

For example, use NE3's organ. Set up NS2 with an external zone to be NE3's lower manual. Connect pedals to NE3.

 

There may be a way to do it using NS2's organ, with pedals connected to NS2, but it's trickier because the NE3 doesn't have external zones. You could use a silent patch and set NE3's base channel to be NS2's upper manual channel (1), but you'd also need a way to keep NS2 from responding to NE3's MIDI when you want the two to act independently. In this case, you'd always set the NS2's drawbars to "lower" mode -- I don't know if that gets saved with a patch but hopefully so.

 

Frankly, I think you'll end up wanting a sustain pedal for each keyboard. Whether you need an expression pedal for each keyboard depends on your specific needs. If (like me) you pretty much use it only for organ swell pedal, then you'd only need one.

 

Personally, I'd use the NE3's organ, so that the swell pedal is connected to NE3, and I can use the NS2's pianos beneath NE3's organ, but with patches on the NS2 so I can use it for lower manual, and living without an expression pedal on the NS2.

 

I do something similar to this with my NS2/CP4 rig. Because I want to be able to use either foot with either keyboard, I put one expression pedal in the middle (connected to NE2), and two sustain pedals on each side. The outer ones go to the CP4 and the inner ones to the NE3, and no matter which hand is on top and which is on bottom, I can use the foot on the same side as the hand. More ambipoderous folks needn't bother!

[OB Dave]

I think you're out of luck there, and not just for drawbars, but for all controls (changing patches unless you can defeat sending patch changes on the Nord, percussion, scanner, FX, patch volume, drive, etc.)

Both of these Nords have the ability to selectively Send Only / Receive Only / Send and Receive various classes of MIDI messages. So you could block Program Changes, which would solve the patch selection issue. But I can't think of a way to block all control changes except expression pedal without using a MIDI filtering device like the MIDI Solutions box.

 

It doesn't help that Nord's CC mappings are kind of crazy. The Electro and Stage lines use different, but overlapping MIDI CC mapping for drawbars, and the CC for turning percussion on and off on the Electro probably maps to something totally unexpected on the Stage.

 

I think you'll need to pick your poison: carry a MIDI solutions box plus its power supply, or carry two expression pedals and two sustain pedals.

 

Edit: Have you considered using the Stage 2 in dual-keyboard mode? You would just be using the Electro for its waterfall keyboard. You don't use the Electro's control panel nor would you plug any pedals into it.

 

The Stage 2 has two complete and independent sound engines inside (this is the Slot A / Slot B stuff), so you could have a patch that uses the Stage 2 + Electro as a dual manual organ if you wanted, and you can also have the Electro trigger organ in one slot, with the Stage 2 playing whatever you wanted out of the other slot. Since everything is coming out of one instrument, you only need one set of pedals, and now you don't need a mixer because all audio comes out of the Stage 2. You can program different sounds to come out of the different outputs, if that's important to you. Only hiccup I can think of might be trying to get the sustain pedal to simultaneously toggle Leslie while still acting as a sustain for piano. Frankly I'd want to go back to the other setup and use two set of pedals if you're going to be playing piano and organ at the same time. Otherwise, Dual Keyboard mode might be the winning ticket for you.