StaffPad

[Markay]

As I understand it the screen has to be able to respond to the active pen, and this is the difference between the Surface screen and those on iPads, Android tablets and other Windows tablets.

 

Also the dev pointed out that the processor needs to have sufficient grunt to run the App. The Intel i3's and up have it, the lesser CPU's in iPads and Android don't.

 

I don't get the issue about why your guess that MS supported this App is relevant. Almost everything in Logic was bought from a third party by Apple in the past as was Camel earlier this year. MS support, if it is true, seems trivial in this context.

 

MS tablet strategy has been to offer desktop functionality in a tablet format. If dev's choose to utilise the power of a desktop in a tablet format more power to them. Apple's strategy is to keep tablets low powered and the fully featured apps on a MBP or desktop - without touch screens. Different strategies, devs have to choose the platform which suits their app.

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Only trying to reason out the exclusivity (not easy to get wide adoption being platform specific and music notation is very niche, it's no angry birds), but like you say... It seems they've taken advantage of very specific hardware. And maybe their recognition algo's are dependent upon it.

 

I think Apple's main focus on mobile is battery life and light carry. Even the new Mac Book which has more in common with the Mac Book Air than a Mac Book Pro with mobile processor and most of the innards allocated to holding batteries.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

The Surface has an Atom processor and smaller screen. The Surface Pro would be a better choice (especially considering that the larger screen becomes more important as we age).

[ElmerJFudd]

The Surface has an Atom processor and smaller screen. The Surface Pro would be a better choice (especially considering that the larger screen becomes more important as we age).

 

Ya, this is what the devs say,

 

StaffPad requires a device with an active pen and a touchscreen. Active pens have an eraser button, pressure sensitivity and palm rejection - all of which are crucial for digital inking to feel as natural as on paper. We designed StaffPad to work perfectly with the Microsoft Surface Pro 3, however any Windows 8.1 device with active pen and touch support should work just fine. If you are in any doubt about your device's capabilities, check with the manufacturer before getting StaffPad.

[burningbusch]

The stylus/pen has been part of Microsoft's tablet vision long before the iPad. The idea was the objects on the screen would be so small you'd need it to do basic selection. Plus Microsoft R&D was doing a lot related to handwriting recognition. So it shouldn't be a big surprise the Surface is just a lot more sophisticated in this area.

 

MS is saying the x7 Atom in the Surface gives you 85% of the power of the x3 in the Pro. The Pro does have a larger screen but also higher resolution so I don't know that natively text will look larger. You will have somewhat more screen real estate.

 

That $600 Surface with 128GB storage and 4GB RAM looks pretty sweet.

 

Busch.

[burningbusch]

I don't know that the developer has tested the new Surface as it isn't out yet, but barring the unforeseen, it should work fine. The pen for the new Surface meets all three of the requirements.

 

Busch.

[cedar]

The Surface has an Atom processor and smaller screen. The Surface Pro would be a better choice (especially considering that the larger screen becomes more important as we age).

 

Ya, this is what the devs say,

 

StaffPad requires a device with an active pen and a touchscreen. Active pens have an eraser button, pressure sensitivity and palm rejection - all of which are crucial for digital inking to feel as natural as on paper. We designed StaffPad to work perfectly with the Microsoft Surface Pro 3, however any Windows 8.1 device with active pen and touch support should work just fine. If you are in any doubt about your device's capabilities, check with the manufacturer before getting StaffPad.

 

I emailed Staffpad support and asked if the program will work with the new Surface. The answer:

 

It does indeed wrk well with the new Surface 3. I feel obliged to point out that the pen is an additional purchase from Microsoft with the Surface 3, whereas it's included with the Pro 3.

 

If that is correct, I don't know that the difference in the processor between the Surface and Surface Pro will matter for my uses.

[cedar]

MS is saying the x7 Atom in the Surface gives you 85% of the power of the x3 in the Pro. The Pro does have a larger screen but also higher resolution so I don't know that natively text will look larger. You will have somewhat more screen real estate.

 

That $600 Surface with 128GB storage and 4GB RAM looks pretty sweet.

 

Busch.

 

That is the model I am considering. I am kind of torn about the size. I went to a Microsoft store to compare. The Surface is notably lighter, as well as a little smaller. I will be taking the tablet with me in my bag on a daily basis (to use during the commute). I might appreciate it being lighter.

 

But as I think I mentioned before, I do wonder whether one size is notably better for reading simple scores and line-sheets (and also easier to prop up with one of the many stands now available).

[burningbusch]

Videos from Avid about new Sibelius release. As it relates to this thread they have specific updates for the Surface tablet with the pen support. You can see in the video it's no where are slick nor integrated as Staffpad, but it's a start. More reinforces that the Surface tablets look to have a good future as far as a notation device.

 

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxPQYdMQ0Gc&feature=em-uploademail

 

Busch.

[ElmerJFudd]

Right, this type of thing is coming... so platform specific or hardware specific is even more niche than music notation software is to begin with. If Avid can support Notate Me or whatever they have up their sleeve, and Finale isn't far behind... plus you have this mysterious Steinberg notation application just around the corner... who knows how this will play out. This is probably as good a time as any to shake things up.

 

It's very well possible that StaffPad could carve out a % of this market, after all Sibelius sure rocked Finale's world in 1998/99. Although we've become very quick with the extended keyboard, I think most would agree that you really could still write it faster. And if the interpretation is spot on. Well, there you go.

[Kawai James]

Just a quick bump to inform those who may be interested, that the 'Touch Notation' app for iOS is now available in the AppStore:

 

Touch Notation: https://itunes.apple.com/app/id890358046

Touch Notation Free: https://itunes.apple.com/app/id905828734

Website: http://cmusic.kawai.jp/en/products/tn/

 

[video:youtube]

 

The paid version of the app is currently being offered at a special introductory price of $7.99 (33% off) until the end of the month, whereupon it will return to the standard price of $11.99.

 

The free version has a few saving/exporting restrictions, but is otherwise fully functional. If you wish to leave any feedback, please feel free to send me a PM, or start a new thread (forum rules preclude me from creating a new thread about the app myself).

 

Kind regards,

James

x

[Joe Muscara]

I did not realize Kawai had iOS apps. Cool! Though I was hoping Virtual Technician was something I could use with my RX-2 instead of being adjustments for Kawai DPs.

[Philip Clark]

I have a Surface 2 right now. Have been contemplating an upgrade to the Pro 3 for some time, and this may well put me over the edge.

[Sven Golly]

Live demo of StaffPad by the founder of the company:

 

[video:youtube]

 

(note: I haven't watched it through yet... no idea how good this is, but it's from a Microsoft Developer's Conference, so expect some codespeak. )

[ElmerJFudd]

I just watched it - he is a pretty level headed guy and did a nice job explaining something that not everyone "gets".

 

I'm pretty sure he didn't intend for 6 sixteenths and an eighth note in the last beat of the measure, but you can see why StaffPad interpreted his handwriting that way.

 

He then goes to copy/paste the part across the rest of the string parts but something gets buggered in the process. An error message comes up, "Error during pasting: index was out of range. Must be non-negative and less than the size of the collection. Parameter name: index.".

 

Then StaffPad does something bizarre. The run he had just written gets totally screwed up, natural signs pop up on every note, the durations on the 4th beat change. Now it displays some strange "4 quarter notes across one beat" figure. Thankfully when he goes to play it back it doesn't sound horrid.

 

For the mass audience, the demo went fine I guess. But for any of us looking at StaffPad as the holy grail of notation apps, not so good. I'm not convinced it's ready for prime time.

 

In this example, Jacob Reinhardt sits down to write a simple rhythm. Eighth Rest, followed by 3 eighth notes beamed together ending with 2 quarter notes. Writer's intention is clearly, |(1)+2+3 4 |where first half of beat one is silent. Instead Staff Pad thinks Jason has written an eighth rest, followed by an eighth note triplet, and two quarter notes - which is clearly in error because the phrase doesn't even add up to 4 full beats. He then removes the triplet symbol - who knows if removing the symbol means it should be played as even eighths or will it still be played as a triplet just with the "3" removed. From the demonstration, it looks like you still have to go into a menu and type something to create dynamic markings like f, mp or whatever. Although, it does seem to interpret hair pins, phrase markings, and staccato pretty easily.

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=167REFBAe6U

It's also clear that this app is not intended as a replacement for Finale, or Sibelius as a music engraving application. It just doesn't not have that large a feature set.

[cedar]

I am counting down the days when I can order the Surface 3 - which will be available soon - so that I can get Staffpad. I realize that others may have no problem using Finale and similar programs, but Staffpad looks like I will personally find it a much more intuitive interface. And I can't wait to be able to do this on the train.

[cedar]

Here is a recent review of similar software, NotateMe.

 

http://www.choralnet.org/view/466363

 

The author has a lot of good things to say, but then indicates that Notateme doesn't to a great job of maximizing screen space (an objection which I don't think he raised about Staffpad in an earlier review):

 

I've talked to many colleagues who use NotateMe on a regular basis, and use NotateMe Now either personally or with their students to great success. Despite that, and despite my excitement about handwriting as an input mode for notation, I've never fully embraced NotateMe. My personal bias against phone and tablet devices as production devices always comes down to the use of screen real-estate, and there are apps which make full use of the available screen size to let you do great work on a small device. Unfortunately, I don't think that NotateMe does a great job of this, and it's why my experience with it has been slightly underwhelming. Whether composing or reading music, it's helpful to be able to view measures in context of the larger musical structure, which requires seeing more of the page than just one measure at a time. On the other hand, though, drawing on a small surface such as a phone or tablet screen requires that you have a large enough workspace to write with fidelity. Fingers and large styli like the common iPad styli are, for lack of a better term, blobby enough that the writing has to be very large in order to be accurate. NotateMe has the standard pinch-and-zoom function, but I find myself constantly zooming in and out, which interrupts my thought process. There are ways around this: A stylus such as the Adonit Jot, which fools the iPad screen into letting you see a more defined point, help with this. If NotateMe took a page out of art and design apps and integrated support for an active Bluetooth stylus such as the Adonit Touch or Script, this would create even more refined input. I think the simplest option, though, would be to reconsider the app display. When pinching-and-zooming, both the input and display stay linked in size. This means that you're always choosing to be zoomed in or out on both the input and display. If you were able to zoom each independently, you could see your output in a larger musical context while still writing in a larger input window. Similarly, being able to drag the center bar to resize the two panes would let you use more of the white space which ends up being wasted in a zoomed-out view.

[ElmerJFudd]

In this example, Phillip at NYC Music Services demonstrates input of a measure of music for two piccolo parts.

 

In the first part, StaffPad strangely allows drawing of 2 identical rhythmic figures (3 sixteenths and an eighth) which doesn't fit in 2/4 time - Phillip doesn't attempt to play it back, so I am not sure how it would sound when played. But he then adds the triplet 3 and it's interpreted no problem. Slurs are interpreted easily, but a staccato marking is mistaken as an additional note head.

 

In the second pic part three notes are mis-interpreted and need to be dragged into correct line/space. The first high C I am surprised by since I thought his drawing looked pretty good (two ledger lines and a note head). And quarter rests are "S"s? Not sure why that is.

 

He then does a demo on adding trem lines with a pop up tool. That looks pretty slick and quick. in reality though, as far as note entry goes - it takes him about 2 mins 30 secs to input 2 measures of music. Granted he's chatting, but I don't really see this as being faster than piano keyboard input or even computer keyboard input that most users of other apps have gotten very good at. On the other hand... Yes, Cedar. I can see fiddling with this when on the go, train, bus, etc.

 

 

 

 

[video:youtube]

[Philip Clark]

Figured this might be a good place to put this. Our friend Martin over at Molten Music Tech has posted a direct comparison between the Surface 3 and Surface Pro 3 with regard to music production software, including StaffPad. Great stuff here.

 

[video:youtube]

[burningbusch]

That's a great comparison Dreamchilde. The Surface Pro i5 appears to be almost twice as powerful, but the Surface 3 might end up being perfectly adequate for ones needs. I'm glad he put up a comparison with that Pro Tools computer as you still can't come close to a kick-ass desktop with these tablets/laptops.

 

I hope MS doesn't dumb down the Surface Pro 4 with an M-powered proc like Apple did with the Macbook.

 

Busch.

[Philip Clark]

I may pull the trigger on a Surface 3 as soon as this weekend. I plan on running it with Ableton, Cubase and Maschine. I'll keep you posted.

[cedar]

I just picked up the Surface 3 and spent a few minutes with Staffpad.

 

So far, I am very clumsy with the pen and not proficient at entering information on Staffpad. But I suspect this has more to with my inherently awful penmanship and lack of familiarity with the pen and tablet. We shall see.

 

In the meantime, I need to find good software I can use on the Surface for managing lead sheets and set lists. I think there is some plug-in or app that would enable me to run IOS stuff on the Surface, but no idea if that is the best approach yet.

[Sven Golly]

Figured this might be a good place to put this. Our friend Martin over at Molten Music Tech has posted a direct comparison between the Surface 3 and Surface Pro 3 with regard to music production software, including StaffPad. Great stuff here.

 

Thanks for posting this, Dreamchilde! I'm a Mac-only guy for music production, although I'm fully MS-savvy on the IT side of life. Have been keeping the two worlds separate, merely on principle, but Martin's videos are great viewing, and have me seriously looking at a Surface 3 as a 'lightweight' gig addition... much appreciate you sharing this!

[Philip Clark]

Figured this might be a good place to put this. Our friend Martin over at Molten Music Tech has posted a direct comparison between the Surface 3 and Surface Pro 3 with regard to music production software, including StaffPad. Great stuff here.

 

Thanks for posting this, Dreamchilde! I'm a Mac-only guy for music production, although I'm fully MS-savvy on the IT side of life. Have been keeping the two worlds separate, merely on principle, but Martin's videos are great viewing, and have me seriously looking at a Surface 3 as a 'lightweight' gig addition... much appreciate you sharing this!

 

Yeah, I am a total Mac loyalist. But I have a Surface 2, and it's a pretty slick little device. The only drag is it only runs RT and won't interface with any of my gear.

 

But I've become spoiled by the touch screen. It truly is a superior interface, and to imagine I could run DAWs and Sequencers like this is really just too seductive. I've been watching Martin's progress with the Pro 3 for a few months now. And this comparison probably put me over the edge to just upgrade.

 

This video shows how pretty a Surface looks running Maschine

 

[video:youtube]

[cedar]

I have had the Surface 3 and Staffpad for a couple of days now so might as well offer a quick report.

 

Bottom line: I am finding Staffpad much less user-friendly than I expected and hoped. But there is one big caveat: I have AWFUL penmanship, and it is quite possible that this input method is especially ill-suited for me (which makes me wonder why I was so eager to get it in the first place).

 

To begin with, Staffpad does not yet have a user manual or help files. They provide an interactive tutorial and assume that will show you how to do everything. Since so many of the strokes are intuitive, there is less need for a detailed index. But I do believe that this is an issue.

 

So far, I have gone through the interactive tutorial 2-3 times and spent about 30 minutes experimenting on my own. At this stage, a lot of what I am doing is being misinterpreted or not understood at all. When the program works, it does feel kind of magical. But it is very frustrating when it does not. Often, I have no idea what I have done wrong. Generally, my guess is that I am simply being too imprecise.

 

Again, I emphasize that I have not spent enough time to give Staffpad a fair test. Because my handwriting is uniquely awful, your experience may be much better. Indeed, I find that I am very awkward with the Surface pen in general, not just with Staffpad.

 

There is one thing that is very clear to me, though. This program is NOT good to use on a bumpy train ride, which is one way I really wanted to use it.

 

Finally, I will note that I have written to their support a couple of times already and gotten some helpful replies. Among other things, they told me they have considered adding a user manual. This is a work in progress and I won't be surprised to find some useful improvements down the road.

[ElmerJFudd]

Thank you, Cedar. For sharing your experiences so far. Accurate handwriting recognition is one of the trickiest things for computers to do. I'm sure some of us will remember the Apple Newton and subsequent Palm Pilot with it's more accurate recognition but need for a bizarre shorthand for letters and numbers. StaffPad's S for a quater rest reminds be of that. Anyway, there are only 26 letters (well 52 with lower case) and 10 numbers. Now take western music notation with a dizzying array of symbols and couple that with variations in people's handwriting.

[Philip Clark]

I pulled the trigger on my Surface 3 last night. Hopefully will have things up and running by the weekend.

[JohnnyB3]

It's too bad that something like that will never get too far before Apple does something even bigger and better... And we keep waiting for the iPad Pro...

 

Well, it's here now - the iPad Pro...with pencil. According to StaffPad one reason they did not develop their app for iOS was the lack of pen input: "StaffPad couldn't exist without a great pen experience. The iPad lacks the screen technology which makes an app like StaffPad possible." But they also vaguely hint at some other issues with iPad: "There's many other technical reasons why StaffPad wouldn't be as useful or as functional on iPad, and we felt that the only way to really make this app shine was not to compromise." I wonder if the iPad Pro overcomes these "many technical reasons".

 

It seems (from initial reports) that the StaffPad might be a bit clunky and entry is slow. Perhaps someone else will develop a notation app for iPad Pro. But it may be clunky anyway - it seems like this is a very difficult thing to do as the guys that created StaffPad are no slouches - top musician + top programmer -they know what they're doing.

 

Can anyone using StaffPad comment on the learning curve - is it getting better?

[Josh Paxton]

Gratuitous bump to see if anyone has any comments after using it for a bit?

[Outkaster]

Pretty cool provided the musician can read. Most of the guys I know can't no matter what the instrument.