When patrons break your gear - a long post

[Philip Clark]

You definitely should have taken it to the manager first.

 

Since you didn't, and things went south, here's what I'd suggest:

 

First, apologize to the management for taking it to the customers rather than taking it up with them first. Make it clear you understand that you made a mistake, understand their point of view, and that they were completely right about that.

 

Then ask "What can we do?" about the damage to your horn. Have an estimate of the repair bill. Their answer will clue you into whether you ever want to gig there again.

 

Thanks for this advice, Jeff. You guys are alright. ;-)

[Philip Clark]

Management will never side with you, you are equivalent to their plumber and electrician.

 

I need to remind myself it's always this.

[MotiDave]

thats a bummer, sorry. yeah, confronting drunk patrons directly generally goes either nowhere or it goes south, as you found.

 

i've been fortunate to not have damage, just alot of close encounters. most gigs now are on well elevated stages that provide a barrier.

 

but dang, i remember as a kid in the 80s playing house parties ... forget the drunks, midway thru a set somebody would start to fight, then, being where we were at maybe and the times, it would turn into a full on brawl. we'd keep playing, of course, we were obnoxious rockers. but we'd be watching that expanding circle of flying fists to see which way it'd swerve, as it drew close to the band we'd either push it back into the crowd if we could, or sometimes I'd stop playing to jump in front of my keys and play offensive line blocker.

 

Our drummer generally wanted to stop playing so he could go fight someone.

 

really fun times, as i look back ... sniff ...

[MikeT156]

This experience is precisely why I stopped taking vintage synths to gigs decades ago. Customers, alcohol, and ignorance makes for a bad experience.

 

I hope you got names of the customers that witnessed the idiots that damaged you instrument.

 

The manager is an idiot. Find another gig.

 

 

 

Mike T.

[Dave Weiser]

First - man I am so sorry to hear about this. Total worst nightmare scenario.

 

As a guy who worked in a lot of restaurants as a waiter and cook for years before getting to work in music, I've got a few thoughts.

 

Restaurant managers and owners will often get very defensive about anyone other than restaurant staff approaching patrons about anything. Any manager who has at some point been through the corporate training programs of places like TGI Fridays, Unos, etc will be extra touchy about this. There are valid legal reasons for this paranoia - even if you happened to have valid justification for approaching the patrons.

 

Also, the restaurant owners/managers are ultimately responsible for what happens on the premises. If a patron gets food poisoning, falls or a has a priceless fur coat ruined in a bizarre lobster casserole accident, the restaurant is usually thought of as being legally responsible. So your best bet is to always go to management.

 

Of course that's easy to say as an armchair quarterback. It's quite distressing to have your gear/instruments f***ed with, especially the way you described. In the heat of the moment I probably would have given equal consideration to "go to management" and "deliver face-breaking head-butt" as options.

 

This bit is kind of important - if/when you talk to management again, be sure to say that the patrons were cheeky and disrespectful, ultimately making you feel uncomfortable and even a little unsafe in your work setting. Specifically, you were working, they made you feel threatened and uncomfortable. This bit of language will play upon all of those legal concerns that I mentioned above and turn them to your advantage.

 

You do actually (usually) have the *legal right* to work in an environment where you are not hassled. Keep this in the front of your mind when you deal with these wankers. If it comes to it, I believe you would absolutely clean up in small claims court.

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

[Brettymike]

"deliver face-breaking head-butt" = Liverpool Kiss

 

No one has messed with my music gear much that I know of , but I was pretty (extremely) pissed off to find a person launching into my near new car bonnet with a walking stick.

 

Brett

[TommyBoy]

 

As a professional accordionist for the past 30 years I learned long ago to protect my equipment during breaks. For some reason, everybody wants to touch an accordion. They don't see many accordions I guess and want to check them out.

 

My custom-made accoustic accordion from Italy was around $7000 a decade ago and my Roland FR-8X is $5500 so this is not equipment I want people touching. During breaks I put them in their cases. It's a pain but in reality it takes around 30 seconds to put it in the case and 30 seconds to remove it from the case. Most of that time is spent turning off the amp and disconnecting the 1/4" instrument cable.

 

With a sax sitting on a stand I would think you'd be pretty safe but there's always a bozo out there ready to mess with it. I can't understand anybody trying to move an instrument like that but then again, I'm a musician and a person's instrument is their lifeblood and I wouldn't touch somebody's instrument without permission and even then with extreme care in handling.

 

I'm really sorry this happened to you and hope the resolution is positive.

[MotiDave]

I don't want to touch your accordion.

[TommyBoy]

Wow. I just looked at my signature. 10 Years on this forum now. How the hell did that happen? Looks like I post about 15 times per year on average.

 

I read the forum almost every day, however, and learn an unbelieveable amount from all of you.

 

This is a nice place.

[Michael Wright]

It only says "may"

[B3bluesman59]

MoodyBluesKeys said: For future - see if you can get good musician insurance that will both pay for the repair (less deductible).....

_________________________________________________________________

Recently had my SK1-73 damaged to the tune of $488.00 at a gig. Insurance paid the entire bill. Get some musicians insurance...it should cover accidental damages, theft, etc. Not that expensive and eventually you will end up using the insurance.

[Philip Clark]

UPDATE:

 

Got the quote for the horn repair. It's looking around $220. Bell was flattened and the body bent, some tone holes bent, keys bent.

 

Unfortunately the venue will not return my calls. I've been going back and forth, by text, with the one manager I know there who was not present at the time of the incident. It sounds like they're already looking for replacements for my existing dates in April.

 

I basically said since I haven't heard back from anybody it's probably a given we're not doing business anymore. So I cancelled my show with them tomorrow. I expressed my sadness that the venue didn't have my back and this type of thing is unprecedented in my 30 years of playing professionally.

 

Finally the manager on duty that night TEXTED me back (grrr). She said she would review the video surveillance and get back to me about reimbursing me on the repair. But it's probably best I don't return.

 

I have been, literally, sick to death over this all week. It really annoys me that no one will pick up a phone and talk to me. Remember when people used to do that?

[Bif_]

 

Finally the manager on duty that night TEXTED me back (grrr). ....... It really annoys me that no one will pick up a phone and talk to me. Remember when people used to do that?

 

Let me guess.

 

Is she under 30 years old?

[Doerfler]

Seems like an awful lot of aggravation and frustration for $220.00. Life lesson learned, right? So many things we learn only when something bad happens. Hopefully it never happens again, but surely you will handle it differently. On to the next gig.

[Philip Clark]

Seems like an awful lot of aggravation and frustration for $220.00. Life lesson learned, right? So many things we learn only when something bad happens. Hopefully it never happens again, but surely you will handle it differently. On to the next gig.

 

Surely!

[Danny Linguini]

UPDATE:

 

Got the quote for the horn repair. It's looking around $220. Bell was flattened and the body bent, some tone holes bent, keys bent.

What the hell did they do, take it outside and run it over a few times with a truck when you went to take a leak? Seems like more damage than what should occur from just being knocked over.

 

Anyway, sorry your relationship with this place turned to crap. Unfortunately these things happen. If they do actually check the video surveillance, I'd be very curious to hear just what happened. In the mean time, don't let it eat at you (yeah, easy for me to say). Some people will do the right thing and take responsibility, some won't. On the other hand, the people at the club could just be very busy and you're not highest on their priority list at the moment. Who knows. Even if they do review videos and see what actually happened, they're not the ones who did it, and they may not want to take responsibility for it. Best thing to do is take a deep breath, expect the worst, hope for the best, and move on.

 

[CEB]

The cost of a total re-pad gotten has outrageous. It is to the point where in some cases with student horns it is cheaper to buy a new horn rather that to have one repadded. I took my alto in for a repad and my friend the horn (an Olds Parisian, student horn but I liked it) repair man says. No, the horn isn't worth a repad, make a flower planter or something out of it.

[Philip Clark]

The cost of a total re-pad gotten has outrageous. It is to the point where in some cases with student horns it is cheaper to buy a new horn rather that to have one repadded. I took my alto in for a repad and my friend the horn (an Olds Parisian, student horn but I liked it) repair man says. No, the horn isn't worth a repad, make a flower planter or something out of it.

 

This is a King Super 20. It's opened for James Brown, headlined the House of Blues and won at The Apollo. It's worth the repair.

[CEB]

I'm sure. I was just making a statement how the cost of repads have gotten really high the last few years. It is a time intense repair.

 

I've been in the market for a used Bari for my son and trying to find something affordable that won't break the bank because it needs a refurb has been a challenge. There aint nothing around here.

[16251]

If the club pays, they probably wouldn't hire again. As the Doors say "People are Strange"

[Brettymike]

Just a very bad situation/incident , and whats more there is no concrete lesson to learn here.

 

Brett

[Philip Clark]

Just a very bad situation/incident , and whats more there is no concrete lesson to learn here.

 

Brett

 

Not true. I think, "talk to management first and take lots of pics of the crime scene" is my takeaway.

[Michael Wright]

The guitar player I work with never brings his A guitars to our gigs. He wants me to bring my sax out for a couple of songs. I would rather not.

[Six-string-man]

The guitar player I work with never brings his A guitars to our gigs. He wants me to bring my sax out for a couple of songs. I would rather not.

 

 

Tell him that you will bring your sax if he brings his pride and joy. We guitarists can get a bit precious over our axes. In my collection, I have a couple of guitars that no-one else is allowed to even touch, and they certainly will never leave the house, as they are in the £5500/$8000 bracket.

 

 

SSM

[David Loving]

Might be a good idea to video your gigs. In this unfortunate incident, the manager will deny liability. He will say that he can't control every customer, and that the customer is liable not the venue. He has a duty to provide a safe workplace, but hiring security guards or putting up chicken wire ( ) will mean the end of the place as a performing venue; hobson's choice. What if your horn was stolen? Is the venue liable? Without video you'll never be able to identify the perpetrator. Your chance in small claims court is about zip, even with witnesses. For a $200.00 damage you reached the bottom line of the law of diminishing returns. The damages recovery is not worth your time. I'd get your gear insured if you are around this kind of scene much. Use cases and set up away from the customers' reach.

[mynameisdanno]

Sure there's a concrete takeaway: insure your gear, or be prepared to occasionally foot this kind of bill. If you can't afford either of those things, then don't ever leave gear unattended, even for a minute. It's the cost of doing business.

 

The proper thing to say to the customer is nothing, or if they offer an apology, "it's OK". You're playing in a place that makes their money by getting folks intoxicated. You have to be aware of the risks of a job like that. With no protected stage, consider the risk to your gear to be roughly on par with "rodeo clown", and plan accordingly.

 

The proper thing to say to the management is absolutely nothing, if you want to keep the gig. As others have pointed out, if you cause them hassles - no matter how small, or justified - expect to be replaced, unless the supply of musicians is strangely short and the demand for live music strangely high in your market.

[J. Dan]

Sure there's a concrete takeaway: insure your gear, or be prepared to occasionally foot this kind of bill. If you can't afford either of those things, then don't ever leave gear unattended, even for a minute. It's the cost of doing business.

 

The proper thing to say to the customer is nothing, or if they offer an apology, "it's OK". You're playing in a place that makes their money by getting folks intoxicated. You have to be aware of the risks of a job like that. With no protected stage, consider the risk to your gear to be roughly on par with "rodeo clown", and plan accordingly.

 

The proper thing to say to the management is absolutely nothing, if you want to keep the gig. As others have pointed out, if you cause them hassles - no matter how small, or justified - expect to be replaced, unless the supply of musicians is strangely short and the demand for live music strangely high in your market.

 

So you're saying nobody has any personal responsibility? Strongly disagree. Drunk isn't an excuse for killing somebody in a drunk driving accident, you're still responsible. Venues have a responsibility to provide security. Stage area is always off limits to anyone but the band and it's the bar's responsibility to enforce that. Do you think if somebody got drunk, stepped behind the bar, and broke a bunch of glassware in the ice, nobody should say anything to them because they're drunk and you should just expect it? The bar should have locked up the glassware and ice to protect it? He'll no. That person would be at a minimum, tossed out on their ear.

[J. Dan]

The one time I can recall one of our band members having gear damaged by a patron was an outdoor winery gig that got pretty wild - unprotected stage under a pavilion, hundreds of people drunk on wine. A guy was dancing next to the stage and fell onto the stage, wiping out the guitar player's amp and pedal board, prompting the guitar player to throw the drunk guy like a rag doll about 10 feet, we stopped playing, and alerted the crowd why, pointing the guy out to the hundreds of people. We alerted management, they collected contact info from the guy and gave it to us, and made sure for the rest of that gig and every subsequent gig, that security was present at the stage area at all times. The guitar player had to run direct from his pedalboard the rest of the gig. There was $800 damage to his amp. For some reason he elected not to collect from the guy.

[mynameisdanno]

So you're saying nobody has any personal responsibility? Strongly disagree. Drunk isn't an excuse for killing somebody in a drunk driving accident, you're still responsible. Venues have a responsibility to provide security. Stage area is always off limits to anyone but the band and it's the bar's responsibility to enforce that.

Yeah, but if a patron is claiming gear was "in their way", then there probably is no clearly defined stage area, or indication of the stage area being off limits, or security provided by this particular venue. Nothing inherently wrong with having a setup like that, if it's a small laid-back bar/restaurant with some live music in the corner (I doubt we're talking about a 500 cap club here). If a joint like this is made to feel that they have to provide security and build a real stage, they'll probably just opt to not have live music in the future (or at least hire another, more self-sufficient musician).

 

And sure, I believe in personal responsibility. But what good does that do you when the rubber meets the road? What's the best possible outcome to be had in this situation by attempting to hold the patron or manager responsible? What's the likelihood of achieving that outcome? What are the downsides of all the other (much more likely) possible outcomes?

 

Also, personal responsibility is a two way street. If there's no stage barrier or security, then take responsibility for your gear, either by insuring it so you don't have to worry about it, or securing it when unattended.

 

Do you think if somebody got drunk, stepped behind the bar, and broke a bunch of glassware in the ice, nobody should say anything to them because they're drunk and you should just expect it? The bar should have locked up the glassware and ice to protect it? He'll no. That person would be at a minimum, tossed out on their ear.

Yup, and that's the business's call to make. They're in a position to decide when a customer's repeat business isn't worth having, and toss 'em out. A musician isn't in that position. As others have pointed out, in settings like this, musicians are just service providers, maybe one rung up from the plumber. And if we hassle the customers, no matter how valid the reason, we can't expect to keep working at that place (and possibly even other places). Is it fair? No. Is it reality? Yes, and if you're smart, you'll factor it in to your decision-making process in a situation like this.

 

Most people do have a sense of personal responsibility, and 99% of those people would also have the common sense not to move someone else's musical instrument without permission, or failing that, at least the common courtesy to offer compensation unprompted. As for the inconsiderate jerks who don't, you aren't going to gain anything worth the time you spend by dragging some idiot to small claims court. Life's too short to waste time on jerks. You sure aren't going to "teach them a lesson," even if you win. Some people are just inconsiderate fools, and in a business that puts you around them, you have to count on a certain amount of mayhem and protect yourself.

 

Hence the takeaway: get an appropriate insurance policy and you won't really have to worry about it, or airlines smashing your gear, or thieves, or any number of other hazards to your gear. Personally, I'd love for some jerk to spill a beer on my main board. Free replacement.

 

Some will probably see this as an overly conflict-averse way of living life, but it seems rational to me. What does entering into this kind of conflict get you for your time, trouble, and blood pressure?

 

Sorry if all this sounds harsh. I wouldn't have chimed in on this thread, except for the assertion by another poster that there is no concrete takeaway. This sort of thing is a risk of the job, and it's quite easy and affordable to insure against these risks in a self-sufficient way that doesn't put you in a position of trying to wring cash out of a jerk or cause friction with a client.

[mynameisdanno]

A guy was dancing next to the stage and fell onto the stage, wiping out the guitar player's amp and pedal board, prompting the guitar player to throw the drunk guy like a rag doll about 10 feet

 

There was $800 damage to his amp. For some reason he elected not to collect from the guy.

 

Probably because your guitar player eventually realized that his commission of assault and battery was not justified by an incident of accidental property damage, and wisely decided not to pursue the issue further.