johnchop Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I can understand the relatively slow changes to the hardware platform, given their focus on CPU/heat issues. Also, they use enterprise-grade SSDs (SLCs I believe) which are significantly more expensive than a consumer drive. Some have hacked their Receptors to use MLCs... more power to 'em. The software does lag behind Mainstage and other hosts in terms of MIDI flexibility (IIRC no velocity/aftertouch curves, limited MIDI filtering). I'm also a fan of Mainstage's ability to abstract a control from MIDI message assigned to it, so I miss that in the Receptor. But maybe it's all "good enough" for the folks buying Receptors? I can layer patches and balance levels easily enough, and assign just enough controllers for what I'd use in performance, so...? While I'm not gigging at the moment, I do use my Receptor (2 pro max) at home, and after rigorous testing of specific patch changes, would definitely gig with it. However, I'd also consider Mainstage in addition... or perhaps as a backup. Anyway, now you jokers have me GASsing for an Integra. Seriously, screw you guys I make software noises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Ingram Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Anyway, now you jokers have me GASsing for an Integra. Seriously, screw you guys. I just found out there's no patch remain...ugh...I actually was looking into replacing my JV. I've found patch remain to be really crucial, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechEverlasting Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I've found patch remain to be really crucial, though. This is a nuisance, but on any older Roland module Tone-Remain only really worked if the patch didn't have a dedicated MFX effect. Otherwise you'd get a glitch as the effect processor reloaded. All 16 channels of the Integra-7 can have dedicated MFX processing. My solution to this is to alternate channels on successive Kurzweil Setups. I'll use Integra-7 channels 1, 3, 5, 7 on one Setup and then 2, 4, 6, 8 on the next. As long as I have program change transmit deactivated on the unused channels I've got my Tone-Remain back. You do still want to have zones for those unused channels in your Setups so that your volume pedal and other controllers track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markay Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I can understand the relatively slow changes to the hardware platform, given their focus on CPU/heat issues. Also, they use enterprise-grade SSDs (SLCs I believe) which are significantly more expensive than a consumer drive. Some have hacked their Receptors to use MLCs... more power to 'em. If CPU heat issues are a primary focus then they should be upgrading as fast as possible. The main feature of 5th gen Haswells is lower power consumption and cooler running. As for SSD Muse use the Samsung Pro series range which co-incidentally is what I use. These are regarded as the best for this type of application as they are optimised for fast read and write and also have advanced thermal overload management. In my dollars the 512gig version is currently $449 and the 1TB is $749. Take off 20% for US equivalent. At these retail prices for one chip it begs the question why Muse have not switched to SSD only. And they do not make it easy for existing owners to buy their own SSD and upgrade with the old DOS style fixed size for two of the three partitions. Similarly the included software is now quite out of date. Included software still mentions Alchemy, effects only, and the five or more year old IK Multimedia Amplitude. The concept is great for those seeking a one box solution but if it is to be a viable alternative to a laptop it needs to keep pace with the constant evolution in hardware and software. A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I've found patch remain to be really crucial, though. This is a nuisance, but on any older Roland module Tone-Remain only really worked if the patch didn't have a dedicated MFX effect. Otherwise you'd get a glitch as the effect processor reloaded. All 16 channels of the Integra-7 can have dedicated MFX processing. My solution to this is to alternate channels on successive Kurzweil Setups. I'll use Integra-7 channels 1, 3, 5, 7 on one Setup and then 2, 4, 6, 8 on the next. As long as I have program change transmit deactivated on the unused channels I've got my Tone-Remain back. You do still want to have zones for those unused channels in your Setups so that your volume pedal and other controllers track. Related to that, switching from among the 16 Integra sounds within a user-defined Studio Set can always be done with patch remain. So you can create setups with 16 sounds, and freely switch among them from any controller that allows you to turn zones on and off. Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechEverlasting Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Related to that, switching from among the 16 Integra sounds within a user-defined Studio Set can always be done with patch remain. What you're describing is essentially how the "Snapshots" in the Receptor worked. You would set up a multi with up to 16 different plugs loaded and tap through different mixer settings. The one thing to be careful with when muting MIDI channels to change sounds is tracking of volume pedal and other continuous controllers. If you fade volume pedal to zero, deactivate a channel and then floor volume pedal on another channel, when you go back to the first channel volume will still be at zero. Using pitch wheel while muting and unmuting channels can really be a trainwreck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimmeabeat Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Hi gang Just thought I'd chime in here I'm Bryan Lanser here from Muse Research. Interesting discussion, and obviously there is a lot of Mac fans here. I use a Mac every day for hours. I use my Receptor for playing music. I find the two experiences really different as different as recording is to performing. Receptor is, for those who own it and use it, more of an instrument than it is a computer. We never suggest that you choose one over the other, we see the two enhancing each other in a very advantageous way. We designed Receptor to be an all-in-one, super-rugged, rack-mountable system for people who simply want great sounds with a minimum of fuss and bother, we think that the Receptor is the right solution for a lot of people. Receptors have survived rainstorms, 120 degree summer concert temperatures, stage collapses and 20 foot drops off of airplane luggage conveyors that would have decimated a laptop. But its not for everyone, and for some, a computer is a better choice. So I'm happy to give anyone our perspective on why we're doing the things we do, and I'm happy to engage in (constructive) conversation about why a Receptor might or might not be a good solution for any particular musician. But I would have to say from the outset that I'm not going to get in to any "my computer's better than your Receptor" debates, because that's comparing two things that are very different, and in fact very synergistic. It doesn't have to be either / or, and we never claim it should be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Ingram Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I find playing a MacBook vs playing a module to be a very different experience as well. There's something to be said about having a dedicated instrument on stage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bif_ Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Hi gang Just thought I'd chime in here I'm Bryan Lanser here from Muse Research. Bryan, Welcome to the forum! I'm a Receptor owner (for less than two years) but have barely dipped my toe in the water with what it can do. Purchased it to run Ivory and enjoy it for that. Also enjoy Komplete (version 9) and can spend/waste/play the hours away just scanning through the immense libraries represented. Great 'instrument' and I'm sure I'll go deeper with it. Appreciate your presence on the forum. I'm sure you can be a good contributor! Greg Kurzweil Forte, Yamaha Motif ES7, Muse Receptor 2 Pro Max, Neo Ventilator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analogaddict Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Hi gang Just thought I'd chime in here I'm Bryan Lanser here from Muse Research. Hi and welcome! I'm a happy Receptor user (since 2006!) and I'm glad to see your presence here. MainStage and a receptor are different animals but still rather alike. I can do stuff in either system that can't be done in the other and I hope this can be a fruitful discussion. I'm currently using my Quattro in a rather big production while the band leader uses Mainstage 3, and so far he's had more trouble than I have. ;-) One GREAT feature in MS is the ability to 'lock' certain AU plugs in a bank while the others respond to program changes and so on. If used for samples, it smoothes the process of changing sounds rapidly out a LOT since the samples don't need to be reloaded. Is that a feature that's possible to add..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechEverlasting Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 "One GREAT feature in MS is the ability to 'lock' certain AU plugs in a bank while the others respond to program changes and so on." I'm not very familiar with Mainstage but I don't understand how this is not a Receptor feature. The only way I will use a Receptor live is to have a single Receptor multi with multiple Kontakt Instrument banks and Omnisphere multis all responding to program changes. (There might also be an instance or two of Ivory in there.) I literally never change Receptor multis, and as a result I never wait even a millisecond for anything to load once I've booted up. The Receptor has never crashed on me when used like this, not even after months of eight-show weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doerfler Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Hi gang Just thought I'd chime in here I'm Bryan Lanser here from Muse Research. excellent first post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannjl Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 I want to thank everyone for the posts on my question. Let me know what I have missed on this summary. Need many great sounding patches I can set up in advance and call up live on demand, as well as ad hoc patches in the moment (rehearsal). It has to be simple. Small budget. 1) If I want a less expensive dedicated hardware solution (that will receive sound libraries) to the Receptor VIP.... There is no other device like it. So buy used or save more money. I am still unclear how to control this live. The front panel seems unworkable live for me. Need iPad??? Total cost...about $2.7k 2) For about $500 less than the receptor I could get the Roland Integra-7. Good enough sounds for live work. Same issues on how to control this live since I don't have an iPad anymore. So in adding the iPad I am back up to $2k. 3) I could get a computer, buy some software, assume have to buy some interface hardware, and buy sound libraries. Control it live with a mouse? DAW/mixer? Unknown cost. I assume $2k for all this. Let me know what I have missed here. Thanks JL Hammond XK3, Yamaha PSR-s610, Leslie 3300, Neo Ventilator, Motion Sound Pro-145(fixed!), Yamaha Clubs & Subs, Hammond T-220 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechEverlasting Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 2) For about $500 less than the receptor I could get the Roland Integra-7. Good enough sounds for live work. Same issues on how to control this live since I don't have an iPad anymore. I'm not clear why you would need an iPad to play live with an Integra-7. Whatever keyboard you use to play it should at least be able to send program changes. You can either use simple program changes to call up 64 of your own "Studio Sets" which are up to 16-channel deep multis, or if your controller can send MSB LSB bank select you can call up thousands of individual programs on up to 16 channels at once. I have done tons of complex editing on my Integra-7 just from the front screen, it's a well designed interface. (I don't even own an iPad.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Ingram Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 There are several Integra modules for sale on eBay (in mint condition) for under $1200, such as this one. No, you don't need an iPad for any editing. I suppose if your MIDI controller doesn't have any controllers on it, you may be out of luck in terms of bringing in/out sounds inside a performance, but the price would still be roughly $1200 + shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannjl Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 My Hammond XK3 (not c) does not have any controller functionality, but I was thinking about swapping out the Yamaha arranger keyboard for a controller. With a used Integra-7 that may work in my budget. JL Hammond XK3, Yamaha PSR-s610, Leslie 3300, Neo Ventilator, Motion Sound Pro-145(fixed!), Yamaha Clubs & Subs, Hammond T-220 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan_evett Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 On-the-fly module control with an iPad is a mixed bag. There are some advantages in a rehearsal setting, but during a gig I'd rather have most of my programming done beforehand, and limit live control to a small set of MIDI commands sent from a keyboard instrument. I've used my Receptor Trio extensively for recording at my home studio, and have several preset templates set up - which could easily be tweaked into live multi-patches. As the Receptor has ample USB ports and dedicated PC ports for a keyboard and monitor, it's super-easy to program using the graphic interface. I spent about $400 for a wired mouse, keyboard and monitor for the Receptor; and that package included a 17" monitor. I imagine a more portable, rehearsal setup could be created with a compact monitor and keyboard/trackpad combination; and likely could be done for less money. Depending on how a couple of pending gig opportunities proceed, I may be taking the Receptor out live. In that case I know it will more than do the job. The amount and variety of sounds onboard my module are pretty extensive. And the ones I use most frequently are quite diverse: Ivory American D, VB3, Omnisphere, and Diva. Diva is almost worth the price of admission alone. When I first opened Diva and staring playing the sounds it was most definitely a "Holy Cow !" moment. 'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo. We need a barfing cat emoticon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechEverlasting Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 How many different sounds would you need to get out of the Integra-7 in one gig? You could create a chain of up to 64 "Studio-Sets" which you could call up from the Integra-7's front panel. If you are going to get a dedicated keyboard controller see if you can find one that lets you send Bank select. The Yamaha S90 series will do this on 4 channels split and/or layered. Older Kurzweil K2's will do this on 8 channels, and the newer PC3 series gives you 16 channels at once to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analogaddict Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 "One GREAT feature in MS is the ability to 'lock' certain AU plugs in a bank while the others respond to program changes and so on." I'm not very familiar with Mainstage but I don't understand how this is not a Receptor feature. The only way I will use a Receptor live is to have a single Receptor multi with multiple Kontakt Instrument banks and Omnisphere multis all responding to program changes. (There might also be an instance or two of Ivory in there.) I literally never change Receptor multis, and as a result I never wait even a millisecond for anything to load once I've booted up. The Receptor has never crashed on me when used like this, not even after months of eight-show weeks. I use mine as a mixer as well, setting up sidechain processing as well as fx sends for my HW synths. If I use snapshot banks, the patches in the synths don't change with the multi, and zload wants me to organize my patches in show order, but I send pc from my Kurz... So what I would need to smooth things out is a way to load samples in ram once for an entire bank of patches... I use about 300 MB so it's not a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechEverlasting Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 So what I would need to smooth things out is a way to load samples in ram once for an entire bank of patches... I use about 300 MB so it's not a big deal. Are you using Kontakt to play samples? Kontakt instrument banks are a great solution for this - you select all the instruments you're going to want to use and drag them into one of 128 locations which correspond to MIDI program changes. The bank loads up once and then all instruments are available instantly. I'm not sure if it's possible to use this functionality while also using program changes to call up Receptor Snapshots. I gave up on Snapshots because I always needed access to more than 16 sounds without loading additional multis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannjl Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 I need about 16-20 "sets" (layered sounds). My arranger supports 8 "sets" with two layered patches per set. JL Hammond XK3, Yamaha PSR-s610, Leslie 3300, Neo Ventilator, Motion Sound Pro-145(fixed!), Yamaha Clubs & Subs, Hammond T-220 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechEverlasting Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 You could easily put together a chain of up to 64 Studio Sets on an Integra-7 that you could advance through from its front panel. Some of these could be silent, which should make it possible to use the XK3C as a controller. Each Studio Set can be up to 16 programs split and layered, using whichever synth engines and up to 4 SRX or "Supernatural" expansions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimmeabeat Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Hi again couple of comments have been made that I can't resist chiming in on One about Freezing a plugin and allowing it to accept program changes without reloading that's what the LOCK / UNLOCK feature does in the Smart Snapshots feature in Mixer mode. The Rack mode is a fairly different beast with its Live Mode function, and the idea is that it doesn't require reloading the plugin since each preset is already in RAM. Hard to explain in text, either to see it in action. Also, I don't mean any disrespect to Integra fans, how is it even reasonable to compare a product that stores its sounds on a few hundred MEGABYTES of ROM with virtual instruments that have sounds that are dozens or even hundreds of GIGABYTES in size? And although 128 voices of polyphony was a lot 15 years ago, all the newer Receptors can deliver many hundreds and often thousands of voices depending on the plugin there's just no comparing the two worlds, expect in the form factor. That doesn't mean Integra isn't appealing. Any device with lots of sounds that are well programmed in a compact and robust 2 rack package is cool. Its just not in the same league when you start comparing the expressivity and sonic detail you get in the world of plugs, whether they are running on Receptor or a Mac. And before you accuse me of having something against hardware synths, I will confess that I worked at E-mu for many many years, I'm VERY familiar with the world of Romplers and rack samplers. But now that I live, eat, sleep and breath VSTs all day long, I can't even turn on my Proteus 2000 and play the sounds without raising my eyebrows and crinkling my nose. So what is it exactly that we're trying to compare when looking at an Integra?? I'm not being snarky I'd really like to know. Cheers Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechEverlasting Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Bryan, I have used the Receptor lots and agree that it's a great device. I have also used the Integra-7 extensively for critical live performance situations and it has never once failed to load up ready to play in about 15 seconds and has also never once made a sound other than what it was supposed to. I can't say either about the Receptor. Also there's quite a bit of work involved in getting a Receptor set up and loaded, although I will concede that Muse sends them out with a nice set of pre-loaded material these days. I have been unable to get any recent Kontakt 5 libraries to authorize on my Receptors. A few years ago it would have been ludicrous to compare any hardware synth with a suite of plug-ins. When I hear the Integra-7 I no longer feel that's the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Also, the Integra 7 has various kinds of behavior modeling programmed into many of its SN Acoustic sounds. My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that, while it is possible to program these kinds of behaviors into some plug-in based libraries (i.e. Kontakt scripting), there is no "out of the box" solution that effortlessly gives you these kinds of realistic behaviors for a wide range of acoustic instruments sounds, as you get on the Integra. Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADino Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I havent tried an Integra, but I read that the APS sounds disappeared from the Supernatural Accoustic. Read that in the SOS review. Not sure why one of Rolands best sounds would disappear, if in fact that is the case. SOS does some pretty good articles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorayM Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Also, I don't mean any disrespect to Integra fans, how is it even reasonable to compare a product that stores its sounds on a few hundred MEGABYTES of ROM with virtual instruments that have sounds that are dozens or even hundreds of GIGABYTES in size? And although 128 voices of polyphony was a lot 15 years ago, all the newer Receptors can deliver many hundreds and often thousands of voices depending on the plugin there's just no comparing the two worlds, expect in the form factor. It's not the size, it's how you use it North Haverbrook - Godsticks - SoundCloud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I havent tried an Integra, but I read that the APS sounds disappeared from the Supernatural Accoustic. I´ve read that too and wonder what that means. What are APS sounds and what´s so special w/ ´em ? Are they dispensable or not ? A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardware Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I use my own builds, choose my own apps and use Bidule for last 10 years. Much cheaper, much better and hardware integration is vital. Real time needs trump convenience. Below is a 1U I just finished building for 1050 USD. 32GBs of CAS 8 DDR3 1600 3 x MX-100 256GB SSDs i7 4790S OC'd to 3.9GHz Soniccore XITE-1 TC Fireworx Furman PL+ Must use DAWg's that Hunt. http://s9.postimg.org/d0ljzvapb/compact.jpg upload image online Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADino Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I havent tried an Integra, but I read that the APS sounds disappeared from the Supernatural Accoustic. I´ve read that too and wonder what that means. What are APS sounds and what´s so special w/ ´em ? Are they dispensable or not ? A.C. Wouldnt it mean Accoustic Piano? Thats the way I took it. What was also interesting was the SOS review of the FA-08 and the authors search for its AP sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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