Kawaii MP7 Organ Drawbar Parameters Require SysEx?

[MotleyFool]

I am seriously considering the Kawaii MP7 as my weighted 88.

 

Ideally, I would like to play the MP7's organs and control the drawbar parameters with a 61 synth action controller's faders.

 

Can someone check these assumptions to see if I've got my thinking straight?

 

1. A sysex message needs to be sent to the MP7 for each of the drawbars, e.g. Drawbar 16' Level=F0 40 00 10 00 11 40 01 50 00 00-7F (1-127).

 

2. If done in real-time, the MP7 sound is likely to glitch (as most synths glitch when sent sysex live)

 

3. My best live performance solution is to send a SETUP Bank/Program Change via the MP7's system channel, and use the MP7's faders if making realtime drawbar changes.

 

To sum up, I can't create a SETUP that can be called, and have the synth-action controller's faders make real-time changes to the drawbars using Control Change (CC) #'s...

 

True?

[voxpops]

You don't need to send sysex to control the drawbars - a simple CC# for each drawbar suffices. The challenge is to find the relevant instruction in the manual! It's on page 44, under Edit Menu Parameters - 3 Sound. You just have to tell the system that you want to use external drawbar control. You can assign different CC numbers internally, or, as I did, set up a patch on your controller to correspond with the MP's default values.

 

The only limitation is that you can't assign a drawbar organ setup to a sub zone (it has to be within the Main zone). This means that if you want to play all the MP's synth/organ sounds from an external, unweighted controller, you have to create setups where the piano sounds are on sub zones (to be played from the MP's keyboard) and the other stuff occupies the main zone for each patch (because that's where your MIDI-receive channel would have to be routed). Thus, if you want, say, a phaser plus tremolo plus amp on an EP, while also playing a drawbar organ with rotary, you can't, because using multi-effects is Main-zone dependent.

 

Edit: thinking about it some more, you might be able to get your multi-effects back by having all three sub-zones working at once, each adding a new effect. I'm not sure what the effect of having three EPs playing at once would be, but it might be worth experimenting with!

[OB Dave]

If done in real-time, the MP7 sound is likely to glitch (as most synths glitch when sent sysex live)

Nah, I don't think so. There's nothing inherent about a SYSEX message that would cause an instrument to glitch. Rather, it has to do with the underlying synth architecture. For example, I could see where switching a synth parameter in real time would cause a glitch if that particular parameter wasn't intended to be changed while playing. Also, note that the Roland Jupiters and Fantoms, and the Kronos all use SYSEX for realtime tonewheel drawbar control. Like those instruments, the Kawai MP7's organ drawbars are definitely designed to be moveable in realtime.

 

You don't need to send sysex to control the drawbars - a simple CC# for each drawbar suffices. The challenge is to find the relevant instruction in the manual! It's on page 44, under Edit Menu Parameters - 3 Sound. You just have to tell the system that you want to use external drawbar control. You can assign different CC numbers internally, or, as I did, set up a patch on your controller to correspond with the MP's default values.

 

There's also a chart on page 133 that appears to show default values (hex 50-58) but it's not clear to me that these are what's currently implemented. The unit in the booth was set to something different. The MP7 has a nice editing menu for changing the CC values and MIDI channel for each drawbar, once you know how to get to it.

 

The sub-zone thing is news to me. Hopefully there's a good workaround for this.

 

[video:youtube]

[MotleyFool]

Thank you so much, voxpop, for taking the time to set me straight!

 

You don't need to send sysex to control the drawbars - a simple CC# for each drawbar suffices. The challenge is to find the relevant instruction in the manual! It's on page 44, under Edit Menu Parameters - 3 Sound. You just have to tell the system that you want to use external drawbar control. You can assign different CC numbers internally, or, as I did, set up a patch on your controller to correspond with the MP's default values.

 

Looking at p44: So, if choosing the MIDI CC# External Control option, I would assign a different CC# to each drawbar, then create a template (in the Novation SL MK2 for instance) mapping the sliders to each drawbar?

 

If I used the MIDI Ch External Control to assign a different channel to each drawbar, I'd set just one MIDI CC# for all the drawbars?

 

The only limitation is that you can't assign a drawbar organ setup to a sub zone (it has to be within the Main zone). This means that if you want to play all the MP's synth/organ sounds from an external, unweighted controller, you have to create setups where the piano sounds are on sub zones (to be played from the MP's keyboard) and the other stuff occupies the main zone for each patch (because that's where your MIDI-receive channel would have to be routed). Thus, if you want, say, a phaser plus tremolo plus amp on an EP, while also playing a drawbar organ with rotary, you can't, because using multi-effects is Main-zone dependent.

 

Edit: thinking about it some more, you might be able to get your multi-effects back by having all three sub-zones working at once, each adding a new effect. I'm not sure what the effect of having three EPs playing at once would be, but it might be worth experimenting with!

 

Appreciate the heads-up. Hmmm. EDITED: Nah, workaround originally posted doesn't work...can't see a way to have serial effect chain using subs...

 

P.S. Interesting that Kawaii limits effects in the subs...wonder if that really saved money.

[MotleyFool]

Thanks, OB Dave,

 

If done in real-time, the MP7 sound is likely to glitch (as most synths glitch when sent sysex live)

Nah, I don't think so. There's nothing inherent about a SYSEX message that would cause an instrument to glitch. Rather, it has to do with the underlying synth architecture. For example, I could see where switching a synth parameter in real time would cause a glitch if that particular parameter wasn't intended to be changed while playing. Also, note that the Roland Jupiters and Fantoms, and the Kronos all use SYSEX for realtime tonewheel drawbar control. Like those instruments, the Kawai MP7's organ drawbars are definitely designed to be moveable in realtime.

 

Makes sense.

 

 

[voxpops]

Thank you so much, voxpop, for taking the time to set me straight!

You're welcome!

 

Looking at p44: So, if choosing the MIDI CC# External Control option, I would assign a different CC# to each drawbar, then create a template (in the Novation SL MK2 for instance) mapping the sliders to each drawbar?

 

You could assign specific numbers to each drawbar, or use the default numbers. But yes, whichever route you take, the template on your controller must match the MP's settings.

 

If I used the MIDI Ch External Control to assign a different channel to each drawbar, I'd set just one MIDI CC# for all the drawbars?

I suppose so, but why do you want a different channel for each drawbar? One channel will do the job, providing each drawbar has its own CC value.

 

[voxpops]

EDITED: Nah, workaround originally posted doesn't work...can't see a way to have serial effect chain using subs...

It does work... sort of. I just quickly setup a Wurli on subs 2 & 3, both activated, and each with a different effect. I had both phaser and tremolo working, although because only one of the pianos has each effect, you need greater depth to produce the outcome, and the result seems less "defined", possibly because I forgot to kill one of the reverbs. Seems like it would work better with some tweaking.

[OB Dave]

Looking at p44: So, if choosing the MIDI CC# External Control option, I would assign a different CC# to each drawbar, then create a template (in the Novation SL MK2 for instance) mapping the sliders to each drawbar?

 

If I used the MIDI Ch External Control to assign a different channel to each drawbar, I'd set just one MIDI CC# for all the drawbars?

 

That's basically correct. It appears that on the MP7 you edit MIDI channel and CC independently for each drawbar. So you could do same CC on different channels, same channel but different CCs, or go completely crazy and do different CCs on different channels.

 

I think it would make the most sense to set them to different CCs on the same midi channel and then sent your template to match.

[MotleyFool]

EDITED: Nah, workaround originally posted doesn't work...can't see a way to have serial effect chain using subs...

It does work... sort of. I just quickly setup a Wurli on subs 2 & 3, both activated, and each with a different effect. I had both phaser and tremolo working, although because only one of the pianos has each effect, you need greater depth to produce the outcome, and the result seems less "defined", possibly because I forgot to kill one of the reverbs. Seems like it would work better with some tweaking.

 

Ah. Just in case, didn't mean your workaround, meant one I deleted - was thinking "on paper" if I could route the audio of a sub through a DAW, then chain effects in the DAW...can't see how to make it work...

 

When I get the MP7, will definitely explore parallel effect processing in the sub...

 

Cheers.

[voxpops]

Ah. Just in case, didn't mean your workaround, meant one I deleted - was thinking "on paper" if I could route the audio of a sub through a DAW, then chain effects in the DAW...can't see how to make it work...

 

OK, I was thinking of playing live, while I presume you're planning to record with your DAW. In which case, you probably don't need to bother with the subs, just have everything setup in Main zone patches.

[MotleyFool]

Ah. Just in case, didn't mean your workaround, meant one I deleted - was thinking "on paper" if I could route the audio of a sub through a DAW, then chain effects in the DAW...can't see how to make it work...

 

OK, I was thinking of playing live, while I presume you're planning to record with your DAW. In which case, you probably don't need to bother with the subs, just have everything setup in Main zone patches.

 

Right now, indeed, am focused on composing & arranging; however, looking forward to the occasional gig, so your "live" thinking is appreciated. Cheers.

[Kawai James]

Interesting discussion, with lots of useful advice from voxpops and Dave!

 

Cheers,

James

x

[AnotherScott]

Looking at p44: So, if choosing the MIDI CC# External Control option, I would assign a different CC# to each drawbar, then create a template (in the Novation SL MK2 for instance) mapping the sliders to each drawbar?

 

If I used the MIDI Ch External Control to assign a different channel to each drawbar, I'd set just one MIDI CC# for all the drawbars?

 

That's basically correct. It appears that on the MP7 you edit MIDI channel and CC independently for each drawbar. So you could do same CC on different channels, same channel but different CCs, or go completely crazy and do different CCs on different channels.

 

I think it would make the most sense to set them to different CCs on the same midi channel and then sent your template to match.

It's nice that the MP7 has that flexibility. There are some fader devices out there that send the same CC (i.e. volume) on each slider, each on a different channel, for mixing purposes. This flexibility on the Kawai sida lets you use that kind of device to control drawbars if desired.

 

To those seeing this and not familiar with the MP7, it is worth pointing out that the MP7 does have a mode where its existing knobs and sliders (and a pair of buttons, since they were one short otherwise) can be temporarily repurposed to function as drawbar controls. Not as good as something like an Ocean Beach device of course, but it is still nice to be able to get some real-time control out of the box. Though as I have mentioned to James, one shortcoming of the Kawai implementation is that, while (as is being discussed here) you can set its organ drawbar parameters to respond to any CC (allowing control by an external device), there is no option to have these "internal" drawbar controls (repurposed knobs/sliders) *send* these same CCs when using them for this purpose. Adding that option would improve DAW recording (for duplicating virtual drawbar manipulation on playback), as well as allow these controls to be temporarily assigned to do things like control real-time synth parameters in an attached soft synth.

[MotleyFool]

[...]as I have mentioned to James, one shortcoming of the Kawai implementation is that, while (as is being discussed here) you can set its organ drawbar parameters to respond to any CC (allowing control by an external device), there is no option to have these "internal" drawbar controls (repurposed knobs/sliders) *send* these same CCs when using them for this purpose. Adding that option would improve DAW recording (for duplicating virtual drawbar manipulation on playback), as well as allow these controls to be temporarily assigned to do things like control real-time synth parameters in an attached soft synth.

 

Thank you, anotherscott, for taking the time to comment.

 

As indicated in the opening post, I am considering the Kawaii MP7 as my 88 key, as I really like the feel. But anotherscott highlights a significant consideration that I will have to weigh against the "feel" of the Kawaii MP7 (which I really like) - the ability of my 88 key to be a master controller.

 

I am on a budget - I am going to have to make a choice (sigh) - is the feel of the 88 key the overriding requirement or is a "good enough" feel and a robust capability to be a flexible MIDI controller the combination I'm looking for.

 

I now am at the point of having to weigh the trade-offs between a "feel" I really like - the Kawaii MP7 (and I've played it as well as the Casio Px350, Yamaha CP40, Yamaha CP4 and Roland RD800) - or a "good enough" feel with excellent MIDI controller capabilities (DAW/soft synths are central elements). More research / testing is, unfortunately, needed - the Korg Kronos X 73/88? the Yamaha Motif 88? the StudioLogic 88? the Arturia Keylab 88?

 

I am taking to heart anotherscott's observation: for me, if the Kawaii MP7 had a strong "MIDI Controller" capability, no brainer...but, as it is..

 

Thanks so much to everyone for helping: what a wonderful forum; am adding to my Favorites Bar...thank you again, one and all.

[AnotherScott]

I am on a budget - I am going to have to make a choice (sigh) - is the feel of the 88 key the overriding requirement or is a "good enough" feel and a robust capability to be a flexible MIDI controller the combination I'm looking for.

 

I now am at the point of having to weigh the trade-offs between a "feel" I really like - the Kawaii MP7...- or a "good enough" feel with excellent MIDI controller capabilities (DAW/soft synths are central elements). More research / testing is, unfortunately, needed - the Korg Kronos X 73/88? the Yamaha Motif 88? the StudioLogic 88? the Arturia Keylab 88?

It is easier to add a control surface to an MP7 to get more MIDI functionality than it is to improve the action of an Arturia, Kronos, whatever. ;-) You may be on a budget, but you can get the MP7 and an additional control surface (or even 2nd board, something as inexpensive as a Samson Graphite 49) for a lot less money than a Kronos 73/88 or Motif 88. (Though if you're looking for a board with sounds and strong MIDI control, don't overlook Kurzweil.)

 

for me, if the Kawaii MP7 had a strong "MIDI Controller" capability, no brainer...but, as it is..

The MP7 does have pretty strong MIDI controller functionality, including the ability to set 4 knobs to send whatever MIDI CC you want. What I was suggesting was a way to have 8 or 9 MIDI CC functions available instead of 4, but I don't want to mislead you into thinking that that capability isn't there at all.

 

[MotleyFool]

Thanks, anotherscott, for the follow-up. Woke up this morning and realized I'd be seriously unhappy with a feel I don't like.

 

It is easier to add a control surface to an MP7 to get more MIDI functionality than it is to improve the action of an Arturia, Kronos, whatever. ;-) You may be on a budget, but you can get the MP7 and an additional control surface (or even 2nd board, something as inexpensive as a Samson Graphite 49) for a lot less money than a Kronos 73/88 or Motif 88.

 

Yes, indeed. That's the "99%" solution for me right now: I can keep my keyboards to two, get the 88 feel I want and better MIDI controller capability by purchasing the Kawaii MP7 and a 9 fader MIDI controller (e.g. the Nektar Panorama P1 <$300) - and keep my MOX6.

 

Now, just wait for a GuitarCenter 15% off day and I'll hit my budget

 

Cheers.