C major scale in 4ths?

[EddiePlaysBass]

So I am working on scales etc, and I was referencing Stuart's book on the topic. At one point (page 44) it mentions practicing scales in 4ths and I notice that it notes the 4th of the F note as B rather than Bb, which I expected.

 

Having some google skills, I found out that the movement from F to B is an augmented 4th (correct me if I am wrong) so now I am wondering whether the augmented 4th is inherent to:

 

- this particular scale exercise; or

- the F note; or

- the F note in its position in the scale (i.e. the fourth note in the scale)

 

Or maybe it is something else entirely? I am just wondering how to incorporate this particular movement / interval when practising it in a different key than C.

 

Thanks!

[b5pilot]

I thought in the key of C the B is natural. Are you thinking the key of F where the B is flat?

 

Then again I could be wrong. It's been a while.

[Richard W]

If you're playing an F major scale, the fourth is Bb.

 

The F in C major is in the Lydian mode, and the fourth is a B.

 

Then again, I could be wrong.

[TimR]

F major scale.

 

F G A Bb - Bb is the fourth. Augmented means #. Bb (#) is B.

 

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

No I mean in the key of C major. But to be clear, I mean playing the scale like this:

 

C F D G E A etc.

 

When I hit the F, I assumed the "fourth" to play would be a Bb but it turns out this is a B. I am still unclear as to why?

 

Likely my thinking is flawed, because I did assume that the fourth would be a Bb because if you start on F (see where I went?) then the fourth in that scale / position would be a Bb. I guess this is the hazard of having limited knowledge, an trying to apply it.

[jeremy c]

David,

your scale in fourths is correct and yes, there is one interval that is not a perfect fourth, it is an augmented fourth.

 

The interval between the B and F is indeed a augmented fourth.

 

When you play the scale in fifths:

C G D A E B F C G D A E B F C

you will discover that the interval between B and F is a diminished fifth.

 

That's just the way scales go and these relationships are true in every major key.

 

I'm assuming that when you hit the Bb your ear told you that something was wrong: it was out of the key.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

For more theory:

 

In the key of C, the V chord is G7. This chord has a B and an F in it and the tension between those two notes is what makes our harmony work the way it does. The G7 chord resolves into the C chord: the B goes up to C and the F goes down to E.

[Eric VB]

I am wondering whether the augmented 4th is inherent to:

 

- the F note in its position in the scale (i.e. the fourth note in the scale)

(Italics added.)

 

The intervals between degrees in a major scale are thus:

1 W 2 W 3 h 4 W 5 W 6 W 7 h 8(1)

 

That is, there is a whole (W) step between the 1st and second degrees. (In the key of C those degrees would be C and D.)

 

To play a scale in 4ths does not mean to play each scale degree in order and insert a perfect 4th above; it means to insert the scale degree 3 notes above. [Why 3 instead of 4? Moving from C (1) to F (4) -- a 4th interval -- is 4-1=3 notes away.]

 

The intervals are thus:

4-1 F-C W+W+h=2.5

5-2 G-D W+h+W=2.5

6-3 A-E h+W+W=2.5

7-4 B-F W+W+W=3

8-5 C-G W+W+h=2.5

9-6 D-A W+h+W=2.5

10-7 E-B h+W+W=2.5

 

The only time the interval is not 2.5 steps (a perfect 4th) is when moving from the 4th degree (F) to the 7th degree (B), which is 3 steps (augmented 4th).

 

So, yes, in the key of C, F is the 4th degree of the scale, and therefore playing the 7th degree, B, will be an augmented 4th interval.

 

In the key of F the 4th and 7th degrees are Bb and E. The names of the notes change but the interval remains an augmented 4th.

[johngoldsby]

David, You could think of those notes F and B natural as belonging to the G7 chord, which is the 5th chord (V7) generated by the C major scale.

 

That "augmented fourth" interval (F to B) is very important, because it outlines the defining chord tones of the G7 chord (the 7th and 3rd of the G7 chord). G7 is the dominant chord that leads back to your home base of C major. The G7 chord is a tension chord, and the note F (the 7th of the G7 chord) wants to resolve to the E (the 3rd of C major) of the C major chord, and the note B (the 3rd of the G7 chord) wants to resolve to the root © of the C major chord.

 

I wrote a BP article awhile back about 4ths, 5ths, and the Devils Interval. In the middle ages, the augmented 4th (F to B) was called the Devil's Interval

 

I think in these modern times, we can use it without any adverse effects.

[SuStudio]

I wrote a BP article awhile back about 4ths, 5ths, and the Devils Interval. In the middle ages, the augmented 4th (F to B) was called the Devil's Interval

 

I think in these modern times, we can use it without any adverse effects.

 

"Twixt the fourth and seventh degree, a scurrilous hell for all to see"

-an obscure Gregorian Aphorism...

[EddiePlaysBass]

Thank you, everyone, for your comments and advice! As always you have come through tremendously! I have much to contemplate now

 

you will discover that the interval between B and F is a diminished fifth.

 

While driving home the other day, I pondered this one sentence and I think a realization came over me, which I would like to double-check: it's all there, isn't it? It's all contained within the scale, no?

 

Whether you play it in thirds, fourths, fifths ... all the notes are already in the scale, right? Playing it in fourths will not make a different note "appear". A Bb is not part of a C major scale and therefore could never be part of said scale played in fourths. Hope I got this, cos if I did, it is a major (pardon the -minor- pun) breakthrough for me personally.

[jeremy c]

Whether you play it in thirds, fourths, fifths ... all the notes are already in the scale, right?

 

Definitely!

 

If you are playing scales in 3rds, 6ths or 7ths, some will be major and some will be minor. In 4ths, one will be augmented. In 5ths, one will be diminished.

 

Try playing all these scales up the neck and across the neck as well. You can play an scale in thirds without moving your hand.

[EddiePlaysBass]

David, You could think of those notes F and B natural as belonging to the G7 chord, which is the 5th chord (V7) generated by the C major scale.

 

Thanks John! This, too, gives me much to contemplate! I will grab a bass and see what I can work out. I remember the article: I actually keep a pile of BP mags with certain articles written by yourself separate from the rest, as I want to be able to reference these articles quickly

[EddiePlaysBass]

In the key of F the 4th and 7th degrees are Bb and E. The names of the notes change but the interval remains an augmented 4th.

 

Excellent stuff, Eric!! I am beginning to grasp the concept. Ever so slightly, but still Thanks!

 

Whether you play it in thirds, fourths, fifths ... all the notes are already in the scale, right?

 

Definitely!

 

Awesome! Time for bed now, and tomorrow a busy day of labor awaits with little to no time for physical playing, but I will be thinking of this thread

 

[Eric VB]

David, You could think of those notes F and B natural as belonging to the G7 chord, which is the 5th chord (V7) generated by the C major scale.

 

Thanks John! This, too, gives me much to contemplate! I will grab a bass and see what I can work out. I remember the article: I actually keep a pile of BP mags with certain articles written by yourself separate from the rest, as I want to be able to reference these articles quickly

Try this.

1. on the D string, play a B (9th fret)

2. on the G string, play an F (10th fret)

Play them together. Now to give them a context,

3. on the A string, play a G (10th fret)

 

Congratulations! You've just played a G7 chord!

 

Yes, we missed a note. We didn't play a D (G7 = G-B-D-F). That's OK. Especially in jazz we leave out the 5th a lot.

 

You can also "outline" chords this way by playing the notes one at a time instead of simultaneously.

[Phil W]

David, have you played piano? It might be good to try the exercise on a piano, it'd only be white notes in C major and it's be really clear why it's a B natural, both visually and soundwise.

[EddiePlaysBass]

David, have you played piano? It might be good to try the exercise on a piano, it'd only be white notes in C major and it's be really clear why it's a B natural, both visually and soundwise.

 

Not yet. But my girlfriend's got a piano which we are taking with us when we move (first half of 2014) and I plan on having it tuned and then drive her crazy with this stuff

[Phil W]

Yes, enjoy that. I don't really play keyboards but when I do try voicings or theory stuff out on my son's keyboard it often makes more sense.

[Chad Thorne]

"C major scale in 4ths?" In the name of all that is holy - why?

[jeremy c]

It's a way to practice scales.

You can play scales up and down and then you can play scales in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths, and octave.

 

You will learn your bass's neck, you will learn your scales and you will learn to hear intervals.

 

There are many things to practice besides songs.

 

What do you recommend?

[EddiePlaysBass]

If nothing else, it has actually given me a better understanding of how scales work. It has also given me a lot of new questions. I would say I moved ahead one step, but the trip just got way longer

[Chad Thorne]

It's a way to practice scales.

You can play scales up and down and then you can play scales in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths, and octave.

 

You will learn your bass's neck, you will learn your scales and you will learn to hear intervals.

 

There are many things to practice besides songs.

 

What do you recommend?

Long ago somebody said to me, "You play what you practice." I found that when I practiced scales, my solos sounded - "scaly." For me I do learn bass lines from recordings of songs I want to play; in preparation for (the more infrequent the better) solos I just blow, find my way in and out. That's my method.

[jeremy c]

When you practice scales in intervals, you are learning how to jump around the bass.

 

These days my solos are getting more chordal, except when I'm playing blues riffs.

 

I play in a jazz trio: guitar,bass,flute, and I am given a lot of solos. I have to negotiate my way through various chord changes, some easy, and some hard.

 

I'm trying to forget about the changes and just make up a new melody to what I am hearing, but it is nice to have reference points to fall back on.

[Wally Malone]

Todd Johnson's Improve Method is great for one wanting to use a chordal approach to soloing. I just printed out all of the exercises since I want to use this away from my computer. There's so much included in this that it will take me a long time to digest.

 

Wally