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[MusicWorkz]

Passion is soul with movement. Soul is an intangible, but we all have it because it comes from deep within and manifests itself through the music. When one is passionate about something, you become zealous about what you are doing. Passion keeps you from sleeping, keeps you trying to finish that hook at 3 AM in the morning, helps you navigate the promotional tour and let's you forsake a normal social life, food and a reliable car with working brakes because you are having a bout with GAS...

[Botch.]

Anyhow that's a machine, not a human, so it has no soul. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 08-06-2001 at 09:34 PM [/B][/QUOTE] Lee, you've never driven a Saab Turbo convertible, have you? That machine has a soul. In fact, I think I'll be buried in it since I'll probably kill myself in it!! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Lee Flier]

Right on, MusicWorkz! That certainly sums it up for me! And I think popmusic and rold did a great job of summing up my feelings about drum machines... which DOES actually lead back to the point of the topic. I think when you have that great a passion for something you generally make a major commitment to it. Loving something that much brings on strong feelings and also usually creates enemies - I don't mean human enemies, necessarily, but conceptual enemies. For me, my biggest commitment artistically is to the drums. Yes, I'm a guitar player, not a drummer, but being a rock guitarist I know which side my bread is buttered on and what's driving the car: the drums. If the drummer isn't happening, nothing's happening, and if the drummer IS happening, if we're locked into the groove together, I'm in a state of eternal bliss. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] The primal, physical, temporal element of music is the foremost thing in my mind. When I stand in front of our drummer and feel the WHOOSH of air coming off the drum kit every time he hits it hard... the incredible intensity and energy coming from a fellow human being slamming flesh and blood and soul to wood and skin and metal... but controlled and SYMPATHETIC to the common cause of serving the song... well, ya know I just can't imagine anybody NOT wanting that. And sure, lots of people obviously don't - there are even a lot of drummers who enjoy programming electronic drums (though not any of the ones I love personally, I can tell you!). But the very idea of a drum machine or a sample is the conceptual enemy of what I'm all about, period. Just about ANY kind of mucking about with time alignment or sampling or other slicing and dicing of drum tracks is to profane my bliss, if you follow. My point is not to try to sway anybody else to follow my own artistic path, nor even to diss anybody else personally for following theirs if it is "the enemy" of mine. It's simply to point out that I HAVE a passion, I have a bliss, and while the reasons why it moves me way beyond the point where it might move someone else are impossible to define or quantify, to follow it requires clearly defined action, commitment, willingness to defend your turf and create the kind of space that is needed in order to make it happen. You can feel passion inside but in order to put it across to other people, you can't wuss out on it. You can't pander to what other people of differing paths might think about it, otherwise the whole thing is lost to all concerned. That still doesn't mean I can't ever enjoy what someone else has done which is obviously soulful even if it's on a drastically different path than mine. I can totally respect that and relate to it. I can't make any guarantees whether I'll LIKE it, but ya know Eric, I still do want to hear your cut on the compilation CD. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] --Lee

[Lee Flier]

Man, pop, you've been doing the hired gun thing for too long. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Real passion isn't theater. I'll put it this way: a good actor can pretend like he's somebody else and do a good job of convincing people that he really is that person. A GREAT actor, actually BECOMES that person for the amount of time that he's on stage or on camera. Once you have felt intense passion it doesn't go away just because you're mad at your boyfriend that day. In fact, the anger can spur you to sing a great love song just as easily. And if you are passionate about music it can heal you of your troubles. Like last week our drummer showed up for practice having had an intensely shitty day. He could EASILY have let his mood dictate what happened at practice, and he was dog tired which could easily have affected his drumming, and nobody would have faulted him had that happened. After all it was "only" a practice and we all have a really bad day now and then. But, practically the instant we started playing, a great big grin broke out on his face, and he played with as much intensity as I've ever seen, maybe more. His mood was completely transformed. There was no "theater" involved - there was no audience, and nothing to prove to anybody. It was completely genuine. And that's what happens when you find your passion - it's an end in itself, not a means to an end. WHY it makes you feel the way it does, is the part that's impossible to quantify. --Lee

[strat0124]

and exactly why I stated earlier that it may be impossible to recognize passion/soul if you've never known it yourself.

[miroslav]

I've spent the last few months making very little music because I decided to completely overhaul my studio. I worked my way back up from bare walls to fresh paint, lighting, acoustic treatments, custom made racks/console furniture (that was a bitch), and now I'm soldering a couple of hundred plugs on brand new snakes and also doing some other new wiring. Through it all, I've felt confident, confused, satisfied, frustrated, happy, annoyed, and most of all....tired. Occasionally some family/friends have asked "when is it going to be finished...how much longer", or "why are giving yourself all this work"? Well, a few times I stopped and even asked myself similar questions...but before the thoughts even sank in...I knew the answer...passion. Passion was and is my ONLY driving force...oh yeah, maybe there are SOME expectations...you know...finish the studio, make some great new music in this fresh, new creative space...maybe break through some of those "doors" with that new music...OK, OK...I'm not gonna' jinx myself...hehehe But it WAS/IS passion that drives my ambition and gives me the energy and desire to continue, no matter how hopeless my dream might seem to others around me. And now...now that my new studio is almost ready for some M-U-S-I-C...man it's smokin'...worth all my time and effort....looks fantastic and... ...it has SOUL! Obviously, any music I create in it will also have that same passion and soul. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] This message has been edited by miroslav on 08-07-2001 at 01:14 PM

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]I dunno, am I the only one (no offense to Lee) who actually do not like the sound of real drums, or a real drummer?[/quote] Obviously not...but I do feel for you...you have my pity.

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b] We're all acting to some extent when we pick up a guitar or step in front of a mic. [/b][/quote] We are?? Speak for yourself, buddy! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] For me, picking up a guitar is as real as it gets. It makes most other things seem contrived by comparison. You wanna 'splain to me why it is inherently any less "real" than anything else? --Lee

[strat0124]

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b] We are?? Speak for yourself, buddy! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] For me, picking up a guitar is as real as it gets. It makes most other things seem contrived by comparison. You wanna 'splain to me why it is inherently any less "real" than anything else? --Lee[/b][/quote] It's about as real as it gets, unless you're doing air guitar. A buddy of mine once called us "six string prostitutes". He's damn near right.

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b] Obviously not...but I do feel for you...you have my pity. [/b][/quote] LOL!! For real! Actually Steve, something you said on the "Problem with Manufactured Music" thread really hit home with me: [quote][b]I just don't like the fact that Listeners seem very satisfied with this music...not just kids either...people put on the Pop music radio station in their car on the way home from work and are Fully Satisfied by the experience...I find this kinda scary. Stepford people? [/b][/quote] I think this ties in with what Strat said about not being able to recognize passion if you've never experienced it yourself. And you know, I've been skating around that point but I think he's right. And like you, I tend to feel an unbelievable sadness and creepiness at the fact that so many people are just sleepwalking through life, having obviously never had the experience of true passion. I don't want to believe that but it seems inevitably true. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/confused.gif[/img]. In fact I've known a lot of people who not only have never experienced it, but will actually run away from it and/or try to squash it when they see it coming. That's an extremely destructive force in the world IMO. One of my favorite quotes EVER is from Howard Thurman, a minister, classmate and lifelong friend of Martin Luther King Jr: "Don't ask what the world needs. Find what makes you come alive and then go and do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 08-07-2001 at 01:56 PM

[strat0124]

DAMN that's a great quote!!!! I wrote it down and saving it for a friend of mine who's on a mission to save the world......wow.

[Master Zap]

[quote]Don't ask what the world needs. Find what makes you come alive and then go and do it. [/quote] ...which in my case is making computer base groovy-ass music, free from real drummers [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] But seriously, some people just dont grok when you want a "sound" of a non-drummer. I had a few people complain about [url=http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/1750/1750074.html]this[/url] song and say things like "The drum track SUCKS, sounds like ping pong balls", and I go [i]"exactly!"[/i]. I wanted a synthetic drum sound, I picked one. It worked perfectly (IMHO), and was precicely the oldschool syntho-sound I was after. Is there something WRONG with wanting that, I wonder!? /Z

[strat0124]

[quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b] I'm not implying guitar, synth, acoustic drums, etc. or any other instrument is more or less "real"... That's not what I was getting at. Let's say you're about to play a really bluesy down-in-the-dumps kind of song, but you've had a great day and have nothing to be down about... To get into the character of the song, it takes a certain amount of acting. Once you're there, great -- but the point is that you don't necessarily always play what you feel. [/b][/quote] I remember listening to Jerry Jeff Walker intro'ing his song "Mr. Bojangles" on his LIVE GONZO'S album......as he was introducing the song he said "I gotta put myself back in that place". It ain't hard to remember the blues when you lived them. Not to say living the blues is a prerequisite for playing the blues, but it is what created them.

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]And like you, I tend to feel an unbelievable sadness and creepiness at the fact that so many people are just sleepwalking through life, having obviously never had the experience of true passion. I don't want to believe that but it seems inevitably true.[/quote] Well yeah, it is sad and I think it's getting worse for some but I look at my Son and the kids in the neighborhood and see tons of passion so I guess it just kinda goes in cycles, the old Pendulum theory. I hope so anyway. We're the few stragglers from older generations who still have that passion so it's our DUTY to show it to the kids, y'know help bring it out. I dunno, I think the older you get the more you become a teacher. Great quote from Howard Thurman, I've heard that one before and always thought it very true and important.

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b]Let's say you're about to play a really bluesy down-in-the-dumps kind of song, but you've had a great day and have nothing to be down about... To get into the character of the song, it takes a certain amount of acting. [/b][/quote] I don't agree. When you are really taken over by passion, it comes with a heightened awareness of the ENTIRE range of emotions, often all at the same time. For example if you have someone in your life that you truly love, it's often accompanied by a terrible fear of losing that person. If I've had a great day, thinking about and/or playing songs that reflect past days that have really sucked, makes the day that much sweeter. I often write much more truthfully about the hard times in my life, when I'm having good times, because it's almost like I can finally allow myself to fully experience the pain now that I'm at a distance from it. I can go "Wow, that sucked! Sure am glad I'm not going through THAT anymore!" Conversely if I'm going through crappy times I often write/play more optimistic stuff because I'm trying to pull out of my funk. Neither of these things are true 100% of the time but the point is that emotions are rarely "pure" and rarely do not contain their opposite somewhere close by. And the more deeply you love, the more apparent that becomes. I like to play stuff that runs the full gamut of emotions no matter what state of mind I'm in personally - and I never feel like I'm acting. --Lee

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]If you hear drum machine sounds in your head and the music moves you, that's all that matters![/quote] Of course...absolutely...I still pity Zap though [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 08-07-2001 at 02:18 PM

[Rob4CU]

Maybe the art of playing with passion has more to do with letting go of what one is currently feeling and letting the soul dictate the path. This would be less "acting" and more "living"... "letting go" vs. "grasping"... Rob

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by Rob4CU: [b]Maybe the art of playing with passion has more to do with letting go of what one is currently feeling and letting the soul dictate the path. This would be less "acting" and more "living"... "letting go" vs. "grasping"... [/b][/quote] Ding ding ding ding ding!! You said it right. The thing is, when you've really "got it goin' on" there is no need to "conjure up" anything. You're already there. Time has stopped and there is no real need for delineating into past, present and future. It becomes not all about you anymore, but about something bigger than you. Of course, sex is probably the best analogy. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] A lot of people like to have sex with strangers (or at least don't mind it), and tie their sexual satisfaction to specific things that they like to do physically. But, most people who've experienced it agree that having sex with someone they really love is WAY better, even if that person doesn't necessarily gratify their particular fetishes. This would not be the case if there were nothing more to sex than physical manipulation (or "technique"). Part of what makes sex with someone you love great, is the knowledge that it is THAT person, and all the experiences you have had together. You aren't actually thinking about all those past "memories" with that person while you're making love, but they're there, somehow. Your empathy with your partner also plays a huge role in your own satisfaction - not only your own experiences are with you at that moment but the other person's as well. Likewise there are some musicians you can listen to and KNOW that what they are playing is infused with passion. Someone else could play the EXACT SAME NOTES using the exact same gear and it wouldn't matter - the difference is that it is THAT person who's playing. For some reason that concept really bothers a lot of people. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] They want to be able to quantify it. I am perfectly satisfied with the notion that each soul is unique and that if we are being true to ourselves that uniqueness will come through in our music, our work, making love, whatever we are doing. And if we are not being true to ourselves and being in the moment, giving ourselves up to the passion, no amount of gear or technique or anything else will substitute. --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 08-07-2001 at 03:40 PM

[b3wiz]

I saw BB King a while back. His guitar player was technically way better than BB. His rig sounded (technically) way better as well. But when BB came out and picked up Lucille, which was plugged directly into an old Lab Series amp he blew my mind with one note. No one else could get away with that. If it was anyone else I probably wouldn't have even noticed. That is the difference that true passion and soul makes. That is why BB is who he is. I never really dug him until I saw him live. He is one soulful dude. I learned how to play the blues from an old bluesman when I was 13. After 3 years I had ALL the chops down but it didn't mean anything to me or anyone else. Now, 30 years later I have been to hell and back. Life has been great. Life has sucked big time. Once again I am playing the blues. But, now it is alive. It moves me. It moves everyone I play for. Passion can't be bought at The Guitar Center. And it's school has a tuition no one can afford and it's courses take forever. If we knew how hard it would be, no one would enroll. But, it's worth everything you pay for it.

[-]

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b] The thing is, when you've really "got it goin' on" there is no need to "conjure up" anything. You're already there. Time has stopped and there is no real need for delineating into past, present and future. It becomes not all about you anymore, but about something bigger than you. [/b][/quote] Well -- maybe this belongs on a different thread, but I do believe there is a kind of a split personality needed to do music: an artist and a craftsman (or crafts[b]wo[/b]man [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] ). Everyone has a different inherent distribution of the two, and sometimes the distribution may vary depending on the kind of music you're creating, but I believe both are necessary. Seems that you're referring more to the artistic side and I'm talking about something a little closer to the craft side (with the end result still being artistic). I don't think either of us are right or wrong -- it's just two sides of the same coin. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

[strat0124]

Damn Lee......the sex analogy.....am I the only one that caught some zing in her description? I love it when you speak to the things you are "passionate" about. And I say that with my greatest respect.

[chessparov]

"In acting you put on the mask, when you sing for others you take it off". That paraphrases a quote from a singing book I recently read, and it seems to summarize a lot mentioned here previously. How many times have you heard people say so and so has a great (technical) voice, however, their singing leaves them flat? Having "soul", IMHO, is the ability to transmit authentic emotions via music into the listener. For example, listening to Bob Marley's recordings sure beats the typical reggae boat cruise! Of course, although further examples are legion, they seem to point to those musical individuals who have the talent or even genius to have us identify with their unique yet universal "statement".

[robsmusic]

Passion is easily faked by using exaggerated emotional behavior calculated to effect. The public is often duped by fake passion/soul. But, real passion , though often overlooked, comes from the heart of the artist performing to the best of his/her abilty to communicate with the audience. It's a blend of skill and taste. Count Basie didn't always play a lot of notes, but he knew which notes to play. (BB King, Duke Ellinton, and others). That's why I can listen to the old recordings of Charlie Parker, Billie Holiday,Dizzy, Miles, Duke, and others , and hear the passion, despite the poor recording quality. Many of the popular recording artists through time have been , in reality, just bad actors who fooled the public(The current crop of teen idol boy and girl groups comes to mind). The Beatle's were once such a group. When they sang "She loves you yeah, yeah, yeah", was that passion? or just a contrivance to get young girls to buy their records? I don't know. But, I beleive that those young girls who bought those Beatle records ( and who are buying those Backstreet Boys CDs), perceived that the artist was performing with passion/soul. Also, According to the dictionary http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=machine , all musical instruments ,including the human body, are machines. All musical instruments can be played soulfully, or not. This message has been edited by robsmusic on 08-08-2001 at 12:15 AM

[-]

[quote]Originally posted by robsmusic: [b]The Beatle's were once such a group. When they sang "She loves you yeah, yeah, yeah", was that passion? or just a contrivance to get young girls to buy their records? I don't know. [/b][/quote] What about the old Les Paul/Mary Ford records? On one hand, everything on those records is studio trickery (mutlitracked guitars and vocals), yet I still get a warm, fuzzy feeling listening to them... I get the vibe that Les and Mary were really passionate about creating great music, even though someone could argue they were craftsmen first, artists second... This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-08-2001 at 02:27 AM

[robsmusic]

Yes popsmusic, Les Paul passionately pursued his pioneering work on the solidbody guitar and multitrack recording. Rob ------------------ R. Guilford Butts www.mp3.com/robsmusic "Your talent is God's gift to you. What you do with it is your gift back to God"......Leo Buscaglia

[Curve Dominant]

[quote][b]Count Basie didn't always play a lot of notes, but he knew which notes to play.[/b][/quote] Aaaahh! You have to luv this sort of basic insight - it's like a nice breeze on a hot day. It's like being in love: you just know it. If you're in love with what you're playing, words like "passion" and "soul" don't even begin to describe it. Play what you love. There's a world out there, and it needs good music. Play. E