Behringer X-32 or Presonus Studiolive..?

[Tobias Åslund]

Well, now it's Behringer bashing time again... The thing is we are getting a new mixer for our band. We will need 12-18 channels depending on what type of gig or recording we're making. A digital board seems like the best idea for a number of reasons. Also we feel the need of a FW interface for as many channels as possible, to be able to do live recordings. Some of our gigs at smaller places we will do the mixing ourself and in other cases we have a sound engineer who helps us out.

 

Now to the big question - what should we get? We have about $2500-3000 to spend, not more than that. In that price range there's not many digital mixers that meet the requirements we've set up - it basically comes down to Presonus StudioLive 24.4.2 or... the Behringer X-32.

 

Now, I've heard nothing but good reviews about the Presonus and we were about to order one, but when I discussed it with the sound guy we're working with - he actually thought we should consider the Behringer, even though he never thought he would recommend a Behringer to anyone. Most musicians, including me and the sound guy knows all about Behringers reputation and previous quality control issues. BUT, so far there I've read nothing but very positive reviews about the X-32. Impressive specs, good preamps and overall sound quality and seemingly solid build quality.

• So, what do you guys think - could it be that Behringer finally got it right now with the inclusion of technology from Midas and Klark Teknik?
  
• If you would make the same choice - would you get the StudioLive instead?
  
• Are there other mixer in the price range we should consider?
  

[timwat]

So the scenario is: two mixers considered (and perhaps the Yamaha O1v96i is worthy third candidate?), one of which has a good reputation, the other model is brand new and brand rep is an open question.

 

It is possible that Behringer finally got it right. Anything is possible.

 

But if it was my $3K to spend, there are too many "ifs" in that sentence. Because when I'm thinking of a band's mixer, it has to provide core functionality all the time, every time. You rarely carry a spare around with you.

 

That's my initial thought, for whatever it's worth. But no matter which way I go, I'd try to purchase from a retailer with an extended support / return policy. Here in the US, Sweetwater has treated me very well in this regard for over a decade. Don't know what the equivalent is in Europe.

 

[mikecorbett]

How about a Yamaha N12, even though you would only have 12 channels its a great board. O1v96i is certainly a good bet. Why are you guys set on a digital mixer over analog? Mackie Onyx all have FW built in now, good pres etc.

[steadyb]

I work for Presonus.

 

I would suggest that, depending on your needs, you might want to consider the several great pieces of software you get with the StudioLive.

 

Capture, Universal Control, w/integrated Smaart frequency analysis, Studio One, along with 2 free iOS apps StudioLive Remote and QMix.

 

Even if you're a Pro Tools guy, or Logic, or Performer (or any DAW for that matter), Capture is great for getting a 16 or 24 channel recording easily and reliably, and then bring the tracks into your DAW. Capture automatically recognizes which mixer it is connected to and when you launch a new session it creates the appropriate number of tracks. 2 clicks, "arm all tracks" and "record" and that's it. You just mix the gig. When you're done, you've got a 24 track recording of the show. Which you can edit, overdub, and remix any way you like. Pretty cool.

[J. Dan]

I work for Presonus.

 

I would suggest that, depending on your needs, you might want to consider the several great pieces of software you get with the StudioLive.

 

Capture, Universal Control, w/integrated Smaart frequency analysis, Studio One, along with 2 free iOS apps StudioLive Remote and QMix.

 

Even if you're a Pro Tools guy, or Logic, or Performer (or any DAW for that matter), Capture is great for getting a 16 or 24 channel recording easily and reliably, and then bring the tracks into your DAW. Capture automatically recognizes which mixer it is connected to and when you launch a new session it creates the appropriate number of tracks. 2 clicks, "arm all tracks" and "record" and that's it. You just mix the gig. When you're done, you've got a 24 track recording of the show. Which you can edit, overdub, and remix any way you like. Pretty cool.

 

We've started using the Presonus board. We were going to borrow somebody's macbook to record using Capture, since none of us own one. Considering it's not my laptop and I already have software on my desktop with plug-ins, etc., is it possible to export the tracks from capture?

[Tobias Åslund]

How about a Yamaha N12, even though you would only have 12 channels its a great board. O1v96i is certainly a good bet. Why are you guys set on a digital mixer over analog? Mackie Onyx all have FW built in now, good pres etc.

Well, for starters 12 channels aren't enough and the N12 has only 8 mic pres and two stereo channels, so I wouldn't even call it a 12 ch mixer. Yamaha 01v96i is an interesting board, though I have heard negative things in general about Yamaha's mic preamps. Presonus should sound better, from what I've heard. Also a lot of dislikes about the interface. One can also wonder if USB 2.0 really is enough to handle 16x16 channels for live recording. Most importantly though - the 01v96i only 12 preamps and two stereo channels, Presonus has 24 pres and Behringer 32.

 

Why digital? We want built-in dynamics processors and multi-fx and possibility to store mixer scenes/presets/whatever you want to call it. Both of these mixers offers some degree of iPad control, even though you'll need an external wifi router and/or computer to use it (no built in wifi).

The alternative, if you choose an analog mixer, would be to have a rack of outboard compressors, meaning more stuff to carry to gigs, more cables to connect and as I see it - higher cost. So no, analog is not an option right now.

 

I work for Presonus.

 

I would suggest that, depending on your needs, you might want to consider the several great pieces of software you get with the StudioLive.

 

Capture, Universal Control, w/integrated Smaart frequency analysis, Studio One, along with 2 free iOS apps StudioLive Remote and QMix.

 

Even if you're a Pro Tools guy, or Logic, or Performer (or any DAW for that matter), Capture is great for getting a 16 or 24 channel recording easily and reliably, and then bring the tracks into your DAW. Capture automatically recognizes which mixer it is connected to and when you launch a new session it creates the appropriate number of tracks. 2 clicks, "arm all tracks" and "record" and that's it. You just mix the gig. When you're done, you've got a 24 track recording of the show. Which you can edit, overdub, and remix any way you like. Pretty cool.

 

Have you read the listed features and/or seen videos of what the Behringer can do? Aside from the included recording software included with the Presonus, it seems Behringer does all of what those things you've mentioned above and add to that a lot of features that the Presonus doesn't have. There's also mention of a future upgrade where you will be able to record all channels to an external USB hard drive - no computer needed. Of course - this is only mentioned and it may be years before this feature will be reality - I'm just saying it might happen some day.

 

So the way I see it - if you look at features - Behringer is a clear winner. Big color display, motorized faders, 32 channels vs 24, ethernet port and last but certainly not least expansion options. Available now are the digital stageboxes S16 and the personal monitor modules P16. The USB/FW interface will be replacable with other I/O options in the future

 

Also, the reviews so far regarding audio quality seems to be conclusive that this sounds like there actually is Midas class preamps in the X32 and the effects sounds like Klark's expensive outboards.

There are also limitations with the Behringer, of course. All those features and low price tag must mean some cutbacks. There has been reports of 17 s boot up time - somehing to consider before using it live I guess. Does anybody know the boot time of the Presonus? Max sample rate is 48k and then there are also probably some other limitations I haven't read about yet.

 

So far - to me what it will come down to is the long term reliability of the Behringer - and also the one question no-one can answer yet... When you look at feature's the Behringer is the clear winner. It also has slightly lower price.

[Aidan]

The Behringer looks promising but honestly, around £2,300UKP is a lot of money to speculate on a product from a company whose record for reliability and quality is not exactly pristine. Despite the seemingly better feature set, if it were my money I'd be getting the Presonus.

[steadyb]

We've started using the Presonus board. We were going to borrow somebody's macbook to record using Capture, since none of us own one. Considering it's not my laptop and I already have software on my desktop with plug-ins, etc., is it possible to export the tracks from capture?

 

yes.

[Mogut]

Behringer made in china

 

Presonus made in USA

 

 

.....to me, it matters

[steadyb]

Behringer made in china

 

Presonus made in USA

 

 

.....to me, it matters

 

 

Although it probably means less to someone from Örebro, Sweden. (Seriously, why would it?)

 

 

[steadyb]

Now, I've heard nothing but good reviews about the Presonus and we were about to order one...

 

From reading your other posts, you seem to have convinced yourself that the X-32 is the better fit for you, and perhaps it will be.

 

Good luck to you and please keep us posted as to it's reliability, quality, and functionality once you've used it in the real world. (no sarcasm intended)

[Mogut]

Behringer made in china

 

Presonus made in USA

 

 

.....to me, it matters

 

 

Although it probably means less to someone from Örebro, Sweden. (Seriously, why would it?)

 

 

Yeah, but china quality is still china quality even to a swed

 

Dont tell me your not aware that china quality completely sucks, right?

[allan_evett]

 

The PreSonus board does have a solid history/track record, and it covers the OP's needs. In the same situation I'd bet on a StudioLive, and let others be the test group for the new Behringer board - especially with all of the technology involved. The StudioLive is a proven entity.

[Tobias Åslund]

Now, I've heard nothing but good reviews about the Presonus and we were about to order one...

 

From reading your other posts, you seem to have convinced yourself that the X-32 is the better fit for you, and perhaps it will be.

 

Good luck to you and please keep us posted as to it's reliability, quality, and functionality once you've used it in the real world. (no sarcasm intended)

 

I haven't made up my mind and since we're six people in the band it's not all up to me. I hadn't thought about the Behringer at all before last night - and after that I was really impressed with all the features for that price. The reason I started this thread was to get more input. Greg, I hope I didn't offend you in my earlier post regarding the Presonus' features.

 

Behringer made in china

 

Presonus made in USA

 

 

.....to me, it matters

 

 

Although it probably means less to someone from Örebro, Sweden. (Seriously, why would it?)

 

 

Yeah, but china quality is still china quality even to a swed

 

Dont tell me your not aware that china quality completely sucks, right?

 

Please - let's not make this thread a USA vs China thread. Greg is right - it is of less importance to me.

There are examples of quality electronics made in China - AFAIK all iPhones and MacBooks are made in China. Also - I have a strong suspicion that all the circuit boards in Nord keyboards are made in China, even though they read "handmade in Sweden" on the front.

 

The question is - can Behringer make pro quality boards?

[Mogut]

bah look at me.... I lied

 

I just went and looked at my presonus board. Its says "engineered in USA, manufactured in china"

 

ive been bamboozled

[Tobias Åslund]

On a side note - at Thomann, Europe's biggest music store the X32 is at the moment the no 1 selling product, all categories included. On 2nd and 3rd place is the SM58 and a LED can. Full list here. I guess that says a lot about the sudden interest in a mixing desk, but of course nothing about long term reliability. It does however show, I guess, that Behringer will have huge problems in the near future if the build quality isn't good enough. I think this is their one chance to gain the trust of pro musicians. I certainly hope they have learned their lesson by now...

[Tobias Åslund]

bah look at me.... I lied

 

I just went and looked at my presonus board. Its says "engineered in USA, manufactured in china"

 

ive been bamboozled

Damnit - then it's no better then an iPad! Now, if it would have said "handmade in Sweden" you would have had my attention!

[Tobias Åslund]

Thanks for all your input and thoughts so far. I'm going to sleep now - it's already midnight in Sweden, but let the ideas and suggestions flow!

 

I promise I will keep you posted, whichever route we'll take!

[jimmymio]

I have no experience with the Behr but i can say I LOVE my 16.0.2

[C.J. Lewis]

I would re-iterate what steady b said...

 

I work for PreSonus (as an independent rep)

 

Consider the free software you receive with the StudioLIve that works NOW.

 

Capture multi-track recording, Universal Control remote software, Smaart Spectra with spectrograph and RTA frequency analysis (soon to be much more!), Studio One, and 2 free iOS apps - StudioLive Remote and QMix. All free. All working now.

 

I know there are two major updates coming to S1 and UC in the near future . . . both of which will be free. Again.

 

I can't tell you specific #'s, but I can say that the StudioLive is one of the (if not THE) most popular pro audio product of our generation, and it's only been out for ~3 years. It's proven, it sounds great, and it gives you unparalleled end-to-end flexibility. I say go for it.

[Tobias Åslund]

CJ, that's a strong point. I just realized there is at the moment no OSX support for the X32, not even a driver... which is a big problem since the three of us in the band who are likely to use the mixer most all have MacBooks... and the same goes for the sound engineer. So if nothing happens in that field in the following weeks, the X32 is out of the game.

[Theo Verelst]

I sure the harmonic distortion and effective noise figures of the Behringer are fine in the specs (though probably a 160 euro, at Thomann, Lexicon Omega 4ch interface is better, to have a comparison), and that the machine has an impressive technical spec sheet, even FPGAs and Lexicon effect simulations (you may soon want the real thing, if you ask me , though), but remember the max. 48 kHz sampling frequency, probably with the same clock for all inputs, is going to have a ***HUGE*** effect, no matter how you turn and twist science in that area, on the overall sound, compared with an analog signal path mixer.

 

It's very worth while to take some cheapo second hand analog mixer and a band, and compare that with the digital mixer! Of course the recording of 32 channels is interesting, and it's fun to play with the channel strip effects, but I know from experience the 48k effects will ***ALLWAYS*** sound a certain way, unless, well, uhm, you use a real Lexicon for it, and know how to use it. Even the Waves plugins and other well known boxes don't ever really cut it in a _high quality_ live setting. If you're fine with how those standard low freq samples sound: fine. But scientifically, it is a too low frequency for great "live" sound, unless you know very well what you're doing. This has to do with the Second Part of the Shannon sampling theorema, the "reconstruction filtering". I know, I know, lots of people work with it all, but I've had more than a few interactions with sound pros about the subject, and most of them grin a bit already when bringing this subject forward...

 

Also, big displays aren't as expensive anymore (a HD LED screen under $100) so probably more manufactuers will make these available, and the same holds for DSP and FPGA chips. I like the seperate channel display idea, though of course mulit-touch screens are getting cheaper too, which make that no longer needed.

 

I too know the Yamaha 01.. is probably worth the mention because they have good pro properties, something which in the long run may matter for such a sum of money.

 

T.V.

[Tobias Åslund]

Theo, let me first say I just I appreciate your input in the matter.

 

Now, we're a six piece band playing 70's style rock and dirty, heavy blues on mainly overdriven instruments. Even in my Nord, except when playing acoustic pianos almost every sound goes through the internal speaker sim and overdrive, thougt organs go through a Ventilator.

Then most of our gigs is played in front of more or less drunk people in a pub invironment where the background noise is quite high.

Under these circumstances I don't think anyone, even a trained ear will hear much difference between a 48k or 96k mix - and I assure you no-one will care if the singers raspy voice is run through a real Lexicon reverb or not.

 

If we were an acoustic jazz quartet recording in a studio or playing in an almost silent concert hall with fairly educated listeners, then I guess you might have a point in your argument, but even then I don't think it will make a huge difference. Just my two cents.

[orangefunk]

I have a Studiolive 16.0.2. I bought it a year ago but for one reason or another (moving, lack of space, etc.) have only got around to using it in the last week.

 

At first its rather intimidating, but what little I know so far has me convinced this is a high quality product with tons of flexibility.

 

I am still pissed off by my iMac seemingly going to sleep now and again (I really wish there was an audio centric OS available) and audio beginning to crackle.. but I am sure its not the Presonus at fault (either OSX or Logic I think).

 

 

[jlebreton]

Hey guys,

 

Just to let you know that I was also debating between the Presonus 24-4-2 and the Behringer X32. Because the presonus had crash problems and that the X32 I had much more features plus much better effect processors, I went with the X32. I know the Behringer name had a bad rap on some of their products so I've been following another forum for months before finally making a decision. Let me tell you something, It sounds AMAZING! I never thought my Tannoy monitors sounded so good! Everything works great and I don't regret one bit of that great purchase. Kudo to Behringer for an amazing product and looking forward to the great upcoming updates!

 

Good luck in your decision!

[C.J. Lewis]

Jacques, I'm curious - did you own a PreSonus that crashed a bunch? Which features are you referring to in the X32 that the PreSonus didn't have (besides motorized faders)?

 

It is a good sounding board - it feels and looks nice as well - I'm glad it worked out for you.

[jlebreton]

Hi Ivorycj,

 

I know you work for them so I'm not here to argue forever with this - EDIT: Just realized you are not the one that works for them, sorry. I do own an Audiobox VSL and I really like it so I'm not anti-Presonus trust me. However, I like to buy equipment that is the best value for my hard earned money. I follow a lot of forums or read reviews especially when I have to purchase something. I read the Presonus 24-4-2 do crash and this is not something I'm interesting in. As for added features, I like the extra 8 inputs, The Matrix outputs, the 16 outputs, the option to connect their P16-M monitoring system directly with just one network connection and then link that unit to the others through simple cat cables. The P16-M is very full fledge for the musician using it (Eq per channel, limiter, solo, mute...). 8 Klark-Technic stereo effect processors instead of 2. I hear the 2 effect processors on the 24-4-2 are not that great, just ok. Flying faders was obviously one of the strong point of my decision. I had a Yamaha Promix 01 (remember this one lol) and loved the flying faders option. The MIDAS preamps was another strong point of my decision. Especially that they are fully programmable mic preamps . 32 channel recording (and playback) with DAW remote control emulating HUI* and Mackie Control. I know there are more options but just download the manual on the Berh site and check it out. And best of all, it solid! No crash .

[jlebreton]

Oh and another option I love about this X32 system. The ability to connect their stagebox(es) S16 with only one cat 5 (network) wire! Did I forget to mention the beautiful 7" TFT color screen .

[Al Coda]

Then most of our gigs is played in front of more or less drunk people in a pub invironment where the background noise is quite high.

 

That looks like a "real world" gig to me,- NORD + int. amps/ Vent or not.

 

Under these circumstances I don't think anyone, even a trained ear will hear much difference between a 48k or 96k mix

 

Wrong,- I´m trained to hear everything above 48K only, and that´s the reason why I myself appreciate Theo´s post to an excess.

 

- and I assure you no-one will care if the singers raspy voice is run through a real Lexicon reverb or not.

 

I´m surprised you´re not able recognizing how Lexicon smoothly removes the raspyness of these voices,- really !

 

If we were an acoustic jazz quartet recording in a studio or playing in an almost silent concert hall with fairly educated listeners, ...

 

Without any Lexicon,- you´ll never be for sure !

 

Just my two sense.

 

fixed ...

 

A.C.

[JoeSanborn]

Hi Guys,

I wanted to introduce myself.

My name is Joe Sanborn I work for the Music Group. I am very involved with the BEHRINGER X32 and can answer any questions you may have. Feel free to hit me up either in this forum, or via PM. Being an engineer myself for the past 25 years I am very excited to be part of the X32 team.

 

I put together a comparison of the X32, Presonus StudioLive, Yamaha LS9 and A&H GLD. I think this really shows the level of technology involved with the X32 when you compare it to consoles costing three times the X32s' price:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7b83aeoe046tgci/MARK%20Serv%20Grap%20GLOB_Artwork_X32%20Comparison%20Chart-S4%20Final_2012-08-24_Rev.0%20%281%29.pdf

 

A few key X32 features:

- 32 Midas Designed Mic Pre Amps

- 25 Motorized Faders

- Full Recall, including Pre Amp Gain

- LCD Scribble strips

- 40 different FX types (not just reverbs and delays as some other digital consoles are limited to)

- AES50 from Klark Teknik, (this is a 96 channel down a single Cat-5 cable for a complete digital snake system using our new S-16

- Built into the X32 is a 16 channel discreet monitoring system vial ULTRANET. This is a dedicated 16 channel bus to feed our P16M personal mixers.

- 32x32 Firewire/USB recording card included for direct DAW integration

- Plus many other key features to making mixing much easier.

 

In the past three years since acquiring Midas and Klark Teknik, The Music Group has invested 20 million dollars into our manufacturing capabilities. This has dramatically improved BEHRINGER's manufacturing capability allowing us to produce products such as the X32, and allowing us to offer a new 3-Year warranty.

 

I am here to answer any questions you might have in regards to the X32.

 

Best

Joe Sanborn

Manager, Channel Marketing

MUSIC Group

BEHRINGER