Can someone do a brief xw-p1 vs Electro 3 organ comparison?

[AnotherScott]

I just don't get it - here's a keyboard that has a "drawbar" engine that doesn't seem to sound any better than an organ in any other $500 board, but this one has nine short sliders for controlling the engine - and suddenly everyone is praising it. To me in the video demos it still sounds like a rompler organ, drawsliders or not. And - any decent organ sample will sound nice through a Ventilator, IMHO.

 

If all you need is one or two generic organ patches to pull out now and then, a rompler will often be enough. But organs are capable of so many different sounds that you can't begin to emulate without drawbars. Or you may need percussion that doesn't trigger on every key, as some rompler samples do. Or a rotary effect where you can hear the speed change,which some romplers lack. Or the ability to bring in different harmonics *while* you are playing. And so on. So if you need, not just "an organ patch or two" but really need to "play" organ, you need drawbars, separate percussion controls, etc.

 

The thing about the P1 is that this has not been available before to players who could only afford a $500 board. And while you're right that a Ventilator hides a multitude of sins, if it weren't for the ridiculous closeout price on the PC361, there wouldn't be any keyboard with real organ functionality that you could get for $1000 that would sound as good as a P1 and a Vent. How can I say that before I even play one? Because there is no other board with full organ functionality you can buy for $1,000.

 

Apart from the wild card that is the PC361, there is no board under $1500 that gives you the organ functionality of the P1. Are the $1500+ options better? I expect so. But they're $1500+. (And, as an aside, they also don't do a lot of other things the P1 does.)

 

So yes, for someone who wants drawbar organ functionality, getting it at all for $500 or pretty decently for $1000 is a good deal, even if that's ALL it did. Now add the fact that it is also is a full rompler, and a full VA synth, so that's one or two other boards you may not have to buy to get the functionality you're after. Oh, and it weighs 11 lbs. I can easily see why it generates the excitement.

 

But no, certainly without a Vent, it clearly does not compete with the PC361 or a Nord. With a Vent... I'd have to hear it. But the common widsom has been that adequate organ sounds with a Vent are at least competitive with better organs without. Though I'm sure that also is a function of what kind of sounds you're after. If you need a good C/V, a Vent isn't going to help you no matter what.

[David Loving]

Don't Casio's "high end" CTK7000 and wK7500 have little drawbars, too?

[Tobias Åslund]

Get a used Oberheim OB3 squared or Viscount DB3 for around $500- can't be too hard to find. Add Ventilator - done! You have a perfectly fine clonewheel for $1000. It looks good too, with wooden panels and all. My point - the XW-P1 isn't the only alternative if you want a reasonably cheap drawbar organ.

[AnotherScott]

Don't Casio's "high end" CTK7000 and wK7500 have little drawbars, too?

Not really. It looked like it, but that was a real let-down, because instead of 8 audible positions for each drawbar, the sliders only supported 3. So lots of combinations could not be emulated, and for players who manipulate the tones as they play, it was unworkable because of the huge stairstepping as the levels of each tone would abruptly jump as you moved the fader.

 

The lack of an expression pedal can also be a problem for many organ players, and while that problem continues on the P1, it looks like it can at least be addressed via MIDI, an option that was not available on those older models because they had no standard MIDI jacks. (The lack of MIDI jacks and the lack of a mod wheel were other things that dampened enthusiasm for that series in general.)

 

The P1 is also benefitting from the fact that we know we can improve its sound with a Ventilator, an option that was not available when those earlier models came out. But the limit of 3 volume levels per drawbar was really pretty unfortunate regardless.

[AnotherScott]

Get a used Oberheim OB3 squared or Viscount DB3 for around $500- can't be too hard to find. Add Ventilator - done!

Maybe not hard to find in Sweden, but actually pretty scarce in the U.S. But yes, I fully expect that those would be better sounding organs, if indeed organ is all you need.

 

What's also interesting here is that, usually, you can always get more for your buck if you're willing to look at used stuff. In this case, apart from the rare ones you mentioned, you're unlikely to even find something decent *used* for $500. But for a grand... just for organ... I might pick up a used CX3 or SK1 over a Casio+Vent... though even then, I'd have to hear it to be sure. And I'm still not sure I'd rather gig with them considering the weight difference. Pretty much any way you come at it, Casio has a pretty compelling case to be considered.

[Col.B.]

Get a used Oberheim OB3 squared or Viscount DB3 for around $500- can't be too hard to find. Add Ventilator - done! You have a perfectly fine clonewheel for $1000. It looks good too, with wooden panels and all. My point - the XW-P1 isn't the only alternative if you want a reasonably cheap drawbar organ.

 

Yep. Dunnit.

Viscount DB3 a while back from ebay GB£200

just arrived Vent from ebay GB£220

Can midi in lower keyboard and pedalboard.

 

Very pleased

[Tobias Åslund]

Oberheim/Viscounts are not common here either, but I see a few for sale every year. One look at American Ebay and there is at least an OB3 squared module for sale.

[AnotherScott]

Oberheim/Viscounts are not common here either, but I see a few for sale every year. One look at American Ebay and there is at least an OB3 squared module for sale.

Yup, you lucked into seeing one. And it's not the "squared" version. And $400 with no keyboard attached, so it's still going to cost you more than a P1.

 

Yes, if you're patient, you might find a deal. But if you actually want to go out and buy something, the options at $500 at any given time are minimal-to-none, even used.

[Tobias Åslund]

Ok, my mistake.

Anyway, I think our UK friend Colin here has made a hell of a deal - both organ and vent for £420, which equals $670!

[NeedMoreBass]

My XW-P1 showed up at my door a couple of hours ago and I have spent a little time just going through the factory sounds. First impression is not bad for the money, not bad at all. The organs are better than what are in my SV-1 overall which is what I was looking for, but don't even think it will ever replace a Hammond. It would sound much better with a Ventilator, but I'd rather put that $500 towards a PC361 I found for $949 new shipped. I'm going to keep the XW-P1 as it has many strengths, but I won't get into those here since this thread is about the organ section. But if it were between the XW-P1 and the PC361 for just the organ I'd have to say the PC361 at this point.

[AnotherScott]

But if it were between the XW-P1 and the PC361 for just the organ I'd have to say the PC361 at this point.

Yeah... without a Ventilator, I would expect that to be pretty much no contest.

 

To add another wrinkle to this discussion, I was actually considering a P1 largely for the purpose of running VB3. I want something small and light with 9 faders. The best option looked to be the Roland PCR-800 (or its current equivalent)... but for not much more money, it looks like the P1 will be an equally suitable organ controller, plus give me a whole bunch of other cool functionality. If you happen to already have a suitable laptop, that would be a very cost-effective way to get a really high quality organ and then some.

[David Loving]

AScottie! Musicians Friend has a Korg nanokontrol controller on sale for $29.00 that is perfect for controlling software B3:

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/korg-nanokontrol-midi-controller

 

I use one after a friend of mine tipped me off. Works very well - without having to buy a whole board just to get 9 sliders. I use NI Kontakt5 and this Korg controller can handle just about every control item (Swell, perc 2/3, chorus vibrato etc etc). Just an idea.

[AnotherScott]

AScottie! Musicians Friend has a Korg nanokontrol controller on sale for $29.00 that is perfect for controlling software B3

As a matter of fact, I picked one of those up last week, "just in case". At that price, it can't hurt just just to have it around! And that old model, with 9 sliders, is far preferable to the new one with 8.

 

But actually, my earlier message was only part of the story. Having come at this with the idea of possibly controlling VB3, I ended up going for their hardware module instead, which I am now waiting to receive. I wanted the latest-and-greatest VB3, and still haven't quite made my peace with laptop gigging, so I bit the bullet. (Not quite as casual a purchase as the $29 nanokontrol!) And you can't use the nanokontrol with that, or at least, not quite so easily. It's really designed to be used over standard DIN MIDI ports. There is USB in there as well, but things start to get complicated... there are numerous caveats, which I won't get into here. There may be a way to use it, but a traditional MIDI board with built in sliders/drawbars is the only thing that will be plug-and-play.

[erikjamesmusic]

Get the PC361. The shear power in that instrument makes this a no-brainer.

[kwyn]

AScottie! Musicians Friend has a Korg nanokontrol controller on sale for $29.00 that is perfect for controlling software B3:

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/korg-nanokontrol-midi-controller

 

I use one after a friend of mine tipped me off. Works very well - without having to buy a whole board just to get 9 sliders. I use NI Kontakt5 and this Korg controller can handle just about every control item (Swell, perc 2/3, chorus vibrato etc etc). Just an idea.

 

Can you use that thing with an Electro 3 for drawbars. I Can't afford the ocean beach thing.

[AnotherScott]

Musicians Friend has a Korg nanokontrol controller on sale for $29.00 that is perfect for controlling software B3

 

Can you use that thing with an Electro 3 for drawbars. I Can't afford the ocean beach thing.

Not directly, at least, because it's USB only. But you can use programable fader boxes that have standard MIDI. Something like the M-Audio Evolution UC-33e would work, though they've gotten hard to find.

 

You might be able to use the cheap Korg over USB if you're using a computer... I haven't done this, but it seems like it should work if you turn Local Off on the Nord and run both the Nord and the Korg through the computer... it should be able to merge the keyboard's note-events and the Korg's fader-events and send them back out to the Nord's sound engine.

[Ashville.Guru]

You might be able to use the cheap Korg over USB if you're using a computer... I haven't done this, but it seems like it should work if you turn Local Off on the Nord and run both the Nord and the Korg through the computer... it should be able to merge the keyboard's note-events and the Korg's fader-events and send them back out to the Nord's sound engine.

Not only doable, but utterly simple. Although, there's no "merging" happening anywhere; it's a simple routing: NanoKontrol->computer->Nord Midi In.

 

But I'm betting that the OP isn't very interested in the computer route...

[kwyn]

You might be able to use the cheap Korg over USB if you're using a computer... I haven't done this, but it seems like it should work if you turn Local Off on the Nord and run both the Nord and the Korg through the computer... it should be able to merge the keyboard's note-events and the Korg's fader-events and send them back out to the Nord's sound engine.

Not only doable, but utterly simple. Although, there's no "merging" happening anywhere; it's a simple routing: NanoKontrol->computer->Nord Midi In.

 

But I'm betting that the OP isn't very interested in the computer route...

 

Yeah. The drawbuttons are more convenient than putting a laptop into the mix.

[AnotherScott]

Not only doable, but utterly simple. Although, there's no "merging" happening anywhere; it's a simple routing: NanoKontrol->computer->Nord Midi In.

Ah, yes, thanks for the correction.

 

But I'm betting that the OP isn't very interested in the computer route...

I suppose it could probably be done without a computer by adding an iConnectMIDI.

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/iConnectMIDI

 

A bit pricey at $180, but $180 + $30 for the Korg piece is $210, which is still notably less than the $300 Ocean Beach piece... OB clearly is far better ergonomically, but the iConnect might serve some other useful purposes as well, and it does save you 30%...

[JeffLearman]

Hmmm ... for $29, that nanoKontrol might be good enough for my use with NIB4/VB3, which currently are home studio only (I use NE2 for gigs). If so, I could sell my B4D to Jim.

 

But I just don't know if I could gig with one of these. I mean, it looks like Romper Room!

 

What I wish is that someone would make a decent MIDI drawbar controller with two knobs: volume and gain. The rest of the controls I can map to controller keyboard buttons, pedals, or keys. But I really don't want to live without dedicated volume and gain controls. When I used NIB4 live, I used those all the time -- just as I still do with the NE2.

[David Loving]

I use the $29.00 Korg nanokontrol with Kontakt5's B3 and the rest of my set that I routinely use. I use a Belkin powered hub into which goes the Korg's usb, a presonus audio interface and the controller's usb go into the macbook pro's usb ports. I use the belkin powered hub (inexpensive) because it just cuts down on any problems. Kontakt5 has a drawbar display that the Korg can be set up with midi-learn to control every drawbar, switch, whatever on the B3 program. It also sets up to control volume on the NY Steinway piano, Wurli, Neo-Soul Suitcase Rhodes, and Scarbee Rhodes. I velcro the Korg to the controller I am using. The Korg controller has 4 different "scenes" each of which can be set up for whatever you need - say you want a set for the lower manual on K5. I use knobs to control volume and Swell on the organ. The NI B3 uses either a knob or the sustain pedal to switch the leslie effect. Works flawlessly. I even painted the sliders to match the brown and white drawbar pattern. I do not know how it would work with any other software, but for just a little $$$ it is great with Native Instruments Kontakt 5. I gig with it all the time, and it really cuts down on set up and tear down hassle and sounds great.

If your piano or nord or whatever has no usb, just midi, an inexpensive midi-usb converter is a solution.

 

Here's "vintage organs" NI : http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/producer/powered-by-kontakt/vintage-organs/

[AnotherScott]

What I wish is that someone would make a decent MIDI drawbar controller with two knobs: volume and gain. The rest of the controls I can map to controller keyboard buttons, pedals, or keys.

Once you go that far, though, the drawbar controller might as well have toggle buttons for Percussion (on/off, short/long, 2nd/3rd). Depending on your controller, you might not have logically and conveniently grouped buttons to use for that purpose.

[Ashville.Guru]

What I wish is that someone would make a decent MIDI drawbar controller with two knobs: volume and gain. The rest of the controls I can map to controller keyboard buttons, pedals, or keys. But I really don't want to live without dedicated volume and gain controls. When I used NIB4 live, I used those all the time -- just as I still do with the NE2.

 

I don't get it. If you're using a softsynth, it should be easy enough to map volume and gain controls to the audio outs. I've been doing that for quite sometime now. The leftmost slider is my master volume, sometimes I have individual sliders mapped to different sounds.

 

What exactly do you mean by 'dedicated' volume/gain controls on a midi controller? At the end of the day, everything is just sending midi CCs, so it's just a question of labelling them. Or am I missing something here...?

 

But I just don't know if I could gig with one of these. I mean, it looks like Romper Room!

It all depends on how you mount it in your rig, right? With the tiniest bit of double-sided tape, my NanoKontrol looks and feels like a integral part of my CDP-100. My bandmates probably think it is...

[David Loving]

The knobs on the nanokontrol will control the switches, I found. You can map it anyway you want. I have not figured out the little buttons, but I reached my set-up ceiling already. Mine velcros to the px330 and my bandmates are used to it. I don't care how it looks; I won't leave w/o it.

 

added w/ edit - NI has a global volume control that I max out, but one can map a knob to control that - or use the cursor; the presonus audio box interface has a knob to control output that can control volume, too. I leave it at 75% and control vol. with the nanokontrol.

[Ashville.Guru]

The knobs on the nanokontrol will control the switches, I found. You can map it anyway you want. I have not figured out the little buttons, but I reached my set-up ceiling already. Mine velcros to the px330 and my bandmates are used to it. I don't care how it looks; I won't leave w/o it.

The buttons send out Midi CCs, same as the knobs (by default). If you've mapped a switch to a knob, you should be able to map it to a button.

 

But remember - the buttons have two modes - momentary and toggle. Momentary is default, so try switching to toggle mode. The nice glowing LED would be pretty useful in telling you whether the switch is on or off!

[David Loving]

That is correct - I just have not been able to get them to work that way with the percussion, 2 &3, etc. switches, and need to spend more time on that.

[Ashville.Guru]

You'll need the Korg Kontrol Editor, downloadable from here. Plug in the NK, start up the Editor. The NK shows up. Click on the button of interest, you'll see a drop-down box called 'Button Behavior' on the right. Change it from 'Momentary' to 'Toggle'. Click on 'Communication->Write Scene Set' and you're done. Should take much less than a minute.

 

EDIT: There's a good reason why you would have found it easier to map the knobs rather than the buttons. Both knobs and buttons send out Midi CC. Now when Kontakt 'maps' a controller to a switch, that's just a rule: 'the switch is ON if the CC value is greater than 64, OFF otherwise'. Naturally, works perfect with a knob. But in 'momentary' mode, a button transmits 128 when pressed, and 0 when you lift your finger. So the switch is on only as long as you're holding down the button! In 'toggle' mode, the same button transmits 128 the first time you hit it, and 0 the second time. Perfect for controlling a virtual switch!

[JeffLearman]

What I wish is that someone would make a decent MIDI drawbar controller with two knobs: volume and gain. The rest of the controls I can map to controller keyboard buttons, pedals, or keys.

Once you go that far, though, the drawbar controller might as well have toggle buttons for Percussion (on/off, short/long, 2nd/3rd). Depending on your controller, you might not have logically and conveniently grouped buttons to use for that purpose.

Right -- if I were designing a product, I'd definitely do that. But I don't need them for my own purposes, because I've already solved that issue other ways. Even when I was using NIB4D drawbar controller, I didn't use those buttons on the B4D because the ones I'd mapped to my master keyboard were easier to hit on the fly.

 

What I wish is that someone would make a decent MIDI drawbar controller with two knobs: volume and gain. The rest of the controls I can map to controller keyboard buttons, pedals, or keys. But I really don't want to live without dedicated volume and gain controls. When I used NIB4 live, I used those all the time -- just as I still do with the NE2.

I don't get it. If you're using a softsynth, it should be easy enough to map volume and gain controls to the audio outs. I've been doing that for quite sometime now. The leftmost slider is my master volume, sometimes I have individual sliders mapped to different sounds.

 

What exactly do you mean by 'dedicated' volume/gain controls on a midi controller? At the end of the day, everything is just sending midi CCs, so it's just a question of labelling them. Or am I missing something here...?

We must not be communicating, because I don't understand what you're saying at all.

 

My point is that, on a drwawbar unit, I want a gain knob and a volume knob that I can easily grab and turn, and the Ocean Beach unit for Electros doesn't have (or need) those. The Korg has available knobs, but it's not what most people would call "a decent drawbar controller" since the faders don't look or feel anything like Hammond drawbars.

 

But I just don't know if I could gig with one of these. I mean, it looks like Romper Room!

It all depends on how you mount it in your rig, right? With the tiniest bit of double-sided tape, my NanoKontrol looks and feels like a integral part of my CDP-100. My bandmates probably think it is...

OK, glad to hear that! Maybe the pictures don't do it justice. I'm a big Velcro fan for things like that. :-)

[AnotherScott]

Maybe the pictures don't do it justice.

Actually, it doesn't look as goofy in real life as it does in some of the pics! But you can actually get them in black, too... they just don't seem to be available as cheaply. They seem to be around $60 vs $30... I guess they had overstock on the funkier looking ones when they closed them out!

[JeffLearman]

There's always paint!