Speaker advice

[Scott Fraser]

These days I'm gigging with a rack full of loopers & electronics plugged into a stereo pair of Tech21 Power Engine 60s, which are basically a powered extension speaker, i.e. no preamp section. The preamp, & all my tone shaping is done in the rack. The Power Engine is open back, & has a single Celestion Seventy 80 12" in it. I do a lot with an octave pedal & thus need response in the bass range & quite simply the Power Engine doesn't really deliver much low end at all. I'm looking for suggestions on how I can get more real low end out of the system, bearing in mind one of the great benefits of the Power Engine is that it only weighs about 30 lbs. I'm not willing to haul a pair of 4 x 12 cabs around. So, would you all suggest (A) closing the back of the Power Engines, or (B) some other 12" speaker known to have better bass response than the Seventy 80s, or something else all together? Additional info is that I don't play rock & I don't play loud, so all the tone & breakup characteristics of any given speaker are generally not a consideration. Clean, neutral, with extended lows is my quest here.

Thanks for any & all ideas,

[The Geoff]

Celestion G12-65

 

If you can find them.

 

I had a Seventy-80 in a closed cab - wasn't impressed - in fact my G12-65 was actually worse in that cab.

 

I've had my G12 since the mid-eighties & it's been in quite a few cabs. Currently it's in my little Fender Studio 85 (65W - open back) and it sounds great - very boxy with the original Jensen, but the Celestion opened it right up - bags of bottom & top - it's not unlike a Greenback, with a lot more power handling.

 

G.

[pinkjimiphoton]

or use a bbe maximizer in your rack to make it SEEM like there's more bass...?

[Scott Fraser]

Celestion G12-65

If you can find them.

I had a Seventy-80 in a closed cab - wasn't impressed - in fact my G12-65 was actually worse in that cab.

I've had my G12 since the mid-eighties & it's been in quite a few cabs. Currently it's in my little Fender Studio 85 (65W - open back) and it sounds great - very boxy with the original Jensen, but the Celestion opened it right up - bags of bottom & top - it's not unlike a Greenback, with a lot more power handling.

G.

 

Did some Googling around. They are available, as a reissue, I guess. Expensive. Celestion seems to be one of the very few manufacturers which print frequency response charts for their speakers. All of them have a pretty dramatic low end roll off & some major peaks in the upper mids. Fine for guitar amps, though I'm realizing I'm aiming for more of a PA type application; extended lows, smooth, natural non-peaky mids & highs. I'll have to see if there are any samples on the Web. Thanks for that tip.

[Scott Fraser]

or use a bbe maximizer in your rack to make it SEEM like there's more bass...?

 

Hadn't thought of that. A friend's bagpipe & drum band uses the Waves MaxxBass processor to do with hardware what I do in software when mixing their albums. That's a very possible route. The BBE must work on a similar principle to the Waves; psychoacoustics suggest more bass by boosting the first couple of harmonics. Thanks for that.

[Winston Psmith]

I went over to KB amps years ago, to handle the range of synth and pitch-shifted tones I use. To add some meat to the guitar's tone, I compensate with amp modeling from either my GT-3, or a Boss GP-20 pedal, which has a few more features than the GT-3 models - I don't run the guitar synths through the guitar amp models. I also discovered that KB amps can be great for acoustic/electric instruments - lots of headroom, full-range response, and usually three or more channels. (Having a small sub-mixer right at hand can be useful, too, maybe mounted on a music stand.) Some of the Roland KB amps can also be mounted on a speaker stand. Don't know if this helps you in your search, but it's worked very well for me.

 

BTW, did you ever swap out the pups on your PRS SE? IIRC, you were looking for more of a P-90/SC kind of sound. Let me know how that turned out, if you found anything . . .

[Caevan O’Shite]

In general, I'd think something EV or JBL in brand or type (Weber, for example, has a LOT of various models based on a number of classics) would be what you're looking/listening for. Or maybe even full-range cabs, passive or powered varieties.

 

I know that for amplified, 'out-loud' use of my DigiTech GNX4 with some pedals in front of it, it sounds best feeding a powerful amp and full-range cabs, like a PA and/or monitors.

 

It sounds TERRIBLE going into a guitar amp and speakers, whether via the front-end input or a power-amp in/effects-loop return; so I always go D/I with the DigiTech, and completely parallel upstream of it with any real tube-amps.

 

Over on the DigiTech/GNX forums, there were threads discussing speakers that worked well for digital-modeling and multi-effects based rigs...

 

Celestion G12-65

If you can find them.

I had a Seventy-80 in a closed cab - wasn't impressed - in fact my G12-65 was actually worse in that cab.

I've had my G12 since the mid-eighties & it's been in quite a few cabs. Currently it's in my little Fender Studio 85 (65W - open back) and it sounds great - very boxy with the original Jensen, but the Celestion opened it right up - bags of bottom & top - it's not unlike a Greenback, with a lot more power handling.

G.

 

Did some Googling around. They are available, as a reissue, I guess. Expensive. Celestion seems to be one of the very few manufacturers which print frequency response charts for their speakers.

 

FWIW, look to Weber's 1265 as an option.

[J. Dan]

That speaker rolls off really high. You're going to want something pretty strong down to the 80Hz range. The problem with non-guitar 12" speakers is that they lack the high-end response. You want something that will extend to 5-6 kHz. So finding a suitable guitar speaker would be the appropriate route. Eminence makes a wide range, and is actually used OEM in more amps than you may realize. I'd look at them. After that, you may need to reduce the size of the opening on the back (not close it off completely). A little trial and error could yield the results you want. But first find a speaker that has the low end you want - you can't boost something that isn't there.

[Scott Fraser]

That speaker rolls off really high.

 

Which, the Seventy 80 I have, or one of the recommendations here?

 

You're going to want something pretty strong down to the 80Hz range.

 

Even lower to get the bass range of the octave pedal. The few graphs I have seen show rolloffs around 55 or 60 on bass speakers, well above 100 on guitar speakers.

 

The problem with non-guitar 12" speakers is that they lack the high-end response. You want something that will extend to 5-6 kHz. So finding a suitable guitar speaker would be the appropriate route. Eminence makes a wide range, and is actually used OEM in more amps than you may realize. I'd look at them. After that, you may need to reduce the size of the opening on the back (not close it off completely). A little trial and error could yield the results you want. But first find a speaker that has the low end you want - you can't boost something that isn't there.

 

True, it may be a multi-pronged attack, working on the speaker, the box & adding some processing.

Thanks,

 

[Caevan O’Shite]

So, what about a pair of full-range powered-monitors, Scott?

 

-OR- if you like the basic sound you're getting, other than the lack of extended lows- what about simply adding a separate subwoofer to your existing 2 x Power Engine rig?

[picker]

You could go with the Rivera Los Lobottom subwoofer. It would probably have all the bass than you need, and then some. But they are 120 pounds. Maybe you could get one of these and a subwoofer cabinet of some sort, 1x12, 1x15, and put the two together.

[Scott Fraser]

You could go with the Rivera Los Lobottom subwoofer. It would probably have all the bass than you need, and then some. But they are 120 pounds. Maybe you could get one of these and a subwoofer cabinet of some sort, 1x12, 1x15, and put the two together.

 

When I have a team of roadies to hump these I'll consider that Rivera.

[Caevan O’Shite]

How 'bout a pair of Mackie TH-12A powered cabs? Compact, 25.5 lbs apiece, ample power compared to your Power Engine cabs, configurable as stand-alones, monitor-wedges, stand or pole mounted, or flown; a lot of bang for the buck.

 

Or, again, something EV-ish or JBL-ish in 12" to replace the speakers in your Power Engines.

[harvey]

How 'bout a pair of Mackie TH-12A powered cabs? Compact, 25.5 lbs apiece, ample power compared to your Power Engine cabs, configurable as stand-alones, monitor-wedges, stand or pole mounted, or flown; a lot of bang for the buck.

 

 

+1 i was thinking of a pair of full range powered speakers, too.

[harvey]

PS How can we hear some of your stuff, Scott?

[Scott Fraser]

How 'bout a pair of Mackie TH-12A powered cabs? Compact, 25.5 lbs apiece, ample power compared to your Power Engine cabs, configurable as stand-alones, monitor-wedges, stand or pole mounted, or flown; a lot of bang for the buck.

 

+1 i was thinking of a pair of full range powered speakers, too.

 

Well, those are lighter weight & less expensive than most of that ilk. I am hoping to not reinvent the wheel, though, & would rather improve what I have, instead of buying something new & different. I used to run this rig through a power amp into a pair of Ramsa PA speakers & going to the Tech21 cabs was a way to simplify & lighten the set up. I have to say also, as a guitar player, I'm aesthetically much more drawn to something which looks like a guitar amp (the Power Engines) as opposed to a plastic molded PA cabinet. That's just a visual preference, but looks do affect one's overall perceptions. If size, weight & cost were no object, & I had a crew to set them up, I'd probably want to play into a pair of Marshall or Vox 2x12 cabs, powered by the Marshall stereo tube amp. But that's not my situation, nor the type of venue I'm apt to play.

[Scott Fraser]

PS How can we hear some of your stuff, Scott?

 

Some of my collaborations are on CDBaby & Bandcamp, but I need to set myself up on Bandcamp or one of those to show some of the solo stuff. I'll work on that.

[Scott Fraser]

Or, again, something EV-ish or JBL-ish in 12" to replace the speakers in your Power Engines.

 

I'm having a hard time finding any product specifics about EV or JBL speakers. Do they not sell raw speakers to the public anymore? Are there any sites that actually have comparative graphs on freq response? Seems like most manufacturers have dumbed down their product descriptions to "warm & thick with more midrange punch & sparkling highs." That just doesn't tell me much about the low frequency extension.

[pinkjimiphoton]

or use a bbe maximizer in your rack to make it SEEM like there's more bass...?

 

Hadn't thought of that. A friend's bagpipe & drum band uses the Waves MaxxBass processor to do with hardware what I do in software when mixing their albums. That's a very possible route. The BBE must work on a similar principle to the Waves; psychoacoustics suggest more bass by boosting the first couple of harmonics. Thanks for that.

 

yah, basically it just re-aligns the bass and treble frequencies or something like that. you can get it in a stompbox these days.

 

the waves plugin would DEFINITELY work, but then ya gotta haul a hardware host for it, or a laptop.

[Scott Fraser]

the waves plugin would DEFINITELY work, but then ya gotta haul a hardware host for it, or a laptop.

 

There's a hardware Waves MaxxBass box now. Two actually, a full rack +4 version & a more consumery half rack -10 model. Haven't used it myself but I'm sure I can borrow my friend's unit.

Mainly I'm really concerned about adding any weight to my racks. I've pretty much blown both rotator cuffs in my shoulders & it's about all I can manage with a pair of 50 pound racks. It's the load in & out of the minivan that's tough.

 

[picker]

I've heard that the EV-Musician series speakers they use in Boogies produce more lows than the Celestion Black Shadows that are the less expensive option. A local Boogie expert told me they used them to make the open back cab sound more like a closed back. But they weigh a LOT with that huge magnet they use. I don't know for sure, but I think the 12" weighs around 25-30 lbs.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Or, again, something EV-ish or JBL-ish in 12" to replace the speakers in your Power Engines.

 

I'm having a hard time finding any product specifics about EV or JBL speakers. Do they not sell raw speakers to the public anymore? Are there any sites that actually have comparative graphs on freq response? Seems like most manufacturers have dumbed down their product descriptions to "warm & thick with more midrange punch & sparkling highs." That just doesn't tell me much about the low frequency extension.

 

I know what you mean! Albeit, a lot of those pitches assume that the reader has experience with similar speakers and knows pretty much what they're looking for and looking at.

 

 

You might even want to look into 12" speakers aimed at bassists, or vintage bass style speakers.

 

So, would you all suggest (A) closing the back of the Power Engines...?

 

 

Hmn, how about first trying out your Power Engine cabs backed up against a wall, or with something propped-up, held in place covering the back of the cab, just to get an idea of how they'd sound closed-off?

 

I bet that making a ported back-panel, that has less opening than the cabs currently have, and putting a beefier speaker in there would help with the lows quite a bit. Look at the ported-back designs of some 65 Amps and Fuchs cabs...

 

 

Check out the Anniversary and Heritage editions of the Celestion G12H 30, particularly the 55hz "Bass" cone versions, if only for the freq graphs they display on the Celestion 'site; and if you aren't adverse to the Celestion G12H sound, then look at similar but higher power-rated speakers like the Scumback H55 65 or 100 watt, and Weber Legacy 12 65 or 100 watt.

 

For example, on my recommendation, LeftyBlues put a Celestion G12H 30 in his Peavey Windsor Studio Amp, as he was seeking more beef in the low-end. Here's what he had to say:

 

The sonic upgrade is amazing, I played out in the garage for a while at decent volume levels (nobody called the cops ) and then inside at low levels. The response and overall quality of the sound is most excellent...

 

Yes sir the bottom end is there, although at the low volume I typically play at it's not that much different. I know when I turn it up it's definitley much improved. At low levels I really can tell the improvement in the overall sound, very much improved!

 

I've heard that the EV-Musician series speakers they use in Boogies produce more lows than the Celestion Black Shadows that are the less expensive option. A local Boogie expert told me they used them to make the open back cab sound more like a closed back. But they weigh a LOT with that huge magnet they use. I don't know for sure, but I think the 12" weighs around 25-30 lbs.

 

Bet you're right on all counts there, picker... They might not weight quite that much, but they ARE pretty heavy, with the cast frames as well as the heavy magnet assembly. (I could be wrong, maybe they do weigh that much!)

[Scott Fraser]

BTW, did you ever swap out the pups on your PRS SE? IIRC, you were looking for more of a P-90/SC kind of sound. Let me know how that turned out, if you found anything . . .

 

I kind of got overwhelmed with options & not wanting to make a sideways move into something that was different but still not the sound I'm after I put the pursuit aside. BUT just last night I saw something that may get me moving which is a single coil size adaptor plate to fit in a humbucker size cutout, from GFS.

http://store.guitarfetish.com/Humbucker-Rout-adapter-ring-Fits-Strat-pickup-Straight-THREE-COLORS_p_4348.html

What I really want is a single coil sound in a guitar currently sporting humbuckers, & this opens up the entire realm of great sounding Strat pickups. I think I may have found the way forward.

[Winston Psmith]

Very cool, Scott! I'll be interested to see what you finally choose. More and more, I'm coming to view the SE's as very nice guitars for hot-rodding - eventually, I'll probably be down to the neck & body, for original parts.

[pinkjimiphoton]

ummm, why not just wire the humbucker coils in series?

then they'll effectively be singlecoil, and still buck hum.

 

do it on most of my guitars with buckers (wiring permitting) and it works great...

 

sounds like a cross between a strat pickup and a p90...and if ya use push/pull pots, you can have humbuckers in series or parallel..normal, or single coil. great trick, do it all the time!

 

[Scott Fraser]

ummm, why not just wire the humbucker coils in series?

then they'll effectively be singlecoil, and still buck hum.

 

That's something I just recently found out about, the series/parallel possibility on humbuckers. I had thought the only option was a coil tap, which I don't want to do because of the noise. But my new Epiphone Swingster has series/parallel switching on their version of Filtertrons & it provides a huge range of tone options. I'll have to see if the PRS humbuckers bring all 4 wires out where I can switch them. Thanks for that tip.

[pinkjimiphoton]

i believe they DO bro. you should be good to go.

 

i REALLY dig this option...sounds like a humbucker, or sounds like...well, you can hear the windings of the strings, and your neck pickup gets a nice bell that's close to a good strat...

 

with NO hum. well...you know what i mean.

[Winston Psmith]

Hm, I've already got some nice 4-wire HB's from GFS, for both of my SE guitars, (because I'm really not loving those SE pups) but now that ya mention it . . .

 

Yeah, what the hell, I'll get a coil-splitter for one of them, at least. Thanks, Scott and Jimi, I probably would have bypassed that option altogether, if it hadn't come up in this thread.

[Terrell]

ummm, why not just wire the humbucker coils in series?

then they'll effectively be singlecoil, and still buck hum.

 

That's something I just recently found out about, the series/parallel possibility on humbuckers. I had thought the only option was a coil tap, which I don't want to do because of the noise. But my new Epiphone Swingster has series/parallel switching on their version of Filtertrons & it provides a huge range of tone options. I'll have to see if the PRS humbuckers bring all 4 wires out where I can switch them. Thanks for that tip.

 

Lace Sensor Dually is my favorite. Good output, low drag, super low noise, fairly traditional sound for single coil, very open sound in humbucker, wire them in any way you want.

 

Atomic makes a Tube Powered active full range two way system designed to be used with modelers like the Fractal. It's 46# powered. It's heavy, but if you want low end power, you need a big magnet and power... Atomic

[Caevan O’Shite]

Atomic makes a Tube Powered active full range two way system designed to be used with modelers like the Fractal. It's 46# powered. It's heavy, but if you want low end power, you need a big magnet and power... Atomic

 

I believe that NYC tube-amp expert extraordinaire Harry Kolbe either designed or was consulted on those.

 

I'd like to know what "8 ohm 200 watt 12" speakers" they use; note that they also employ a tweeter...