dvuksanovich Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Hey all. So in my last topic I was asking about the proper tools for setting up a guitar. I've ordered and received Dan Erlewine's Guitar Player Repair Guide and I've gone through the chapters on truss rod adjustments, action and intonation. Tomorrow I'm going to get my capo and my feeler gauge set (the really good straight edges are a bit expensive for my taste right now so I'm going to use the strings as my straight edge). I'm all set to get to work. My question has to do with intonation near the 24th fret. Right now I've got the guitar pretty close to being intonated at the 12th fret (I'll need to go back and tweak things if I make any truss rod or action adjustment, of course), but near the 24th fret I'm noticeably sharp on all strings. Anyone have any ideas on why this might be? I'm a bit confused right now because my first guess would be too much neck relief, but there's very little relief (at least to the naked eye) at the moment and I can't think of what else might be causing this. The guitar is a very well made Carvin DC400 and I've had a few different people (including one guy who builds the American made guitars for a notable guitar company) look at it and everyone swears to me that the guitar is built properly. Thanks in advance for your time and advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Geoff Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 How often do you play up there? G. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the World will know Peace": Jimi Hendrix http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=738517&content=music The Geoff - blame Caevan!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvuksanovich Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 If it were only the 24th fret I wouldn't care, but the sharpness starts around the 17th, and I do play up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq. Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Inconsistent fretting pressure? "And so I definitely, when I have a daughter, I have a lot of good advice for her." ~Paris Hilton BWAAAHAAAHAAHAAA!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvuksanovich Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 I suppose it's possible, but I have a really light touch, so I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq. Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Well, if the fretboard is slotted accurately and the frets are in the proper locations, and the intonation is good at the 12th fret, I don't see how it could be off that much at the 24th fret. To tell you the truth, I never check the intonation at anything higher than the 12th fret. Of course, good intonation is essential for the guitar to play in tune up the neck, but the only thing you can really ascertain from good 12th fret intonation is that the 12th fret is exactly in the center of the string length. As far as to whether the 24th fret is actually the next octave (halving the string length again), the only way to know for sure is to measure. "And so I definitely, when I have a daughter, I have a lot of good advice for her." ~Paris Hilton BWAAAHAAAHAAHAAA!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Tomorrow I'm going to get my capo and my feeler gauge set (the really good straight edges are a bit expensive for my taste right now so I'm going to use the strings as my straight edge). I always use the strings as a "straight-edge" to check relief; with the guitar held in playing-position, a capo at the 1st-fret, and the string fretted at the fret that's closest to being over the point where the neck and body meet, I check between the bottom of the string and the top of the fret closest to being halfway-between the 1st-fret and the fret at the neck/body junction, usually the 7th or 8th fret or so. My question has to do with intonation near the 24th fret. Right now I've got the guitar pretty close to being intonated at the 12th fret (I'll need to go back and tweak things if I make any truss rod or action adjustment, of course), but near the 24th fret I'm noticeably sharp on all strings. Anyone have any ideas on why this might be? I'm a bit confused right now because my first guess would be too much neck relief, but there's very little relief (at least to the naked eye) at the moment and I can't think of what else might be causing this. The guitar is a very well made Carvin DC400 and I've had a few different people (including one guy who builds the American made guitars for a notable guitar company) look at it and everyone swears to me that the guitar is built properly. First- use the absolute best, most accurate tuner that you can to first tune and then check and set the intonation; for example, my Peterson StroboStomp tuner is a marked improvement over nearly all other digital tuners, perhaps the very best in its class- my guitar tunes and intonates noticeably better since I got and employed it. I use its "EQU" Equal-Temperament preset to initially tune, check, and set the intonation; once that's done (action, relief, intonation and all), I tune with its "GTR" "sweetened"/compensated preset, and I love, love, LOVE the results. I used to try to ever so slightly flatten the plain 3rd-string while getting the wound 4th-string as close to perfect as I could without going sharp at all- but now the StroboStomp's "GTR"-preset does it for me quickly, conveniently and consistently every time, hassle-free. Now, there's really no such thing as perfect intonation; you have to find the best compromise, balancing the intonation out as best you can between, say, the 5th, 12th, and 17th frets, etc., per each string, varying with each guitar. The given player's picking-technique and finger-pressure on the frets come into the picture, as well- the lighter ones touch with either hand, the better the intonation will be; while a heavy-handed attack and squeeze will sharpen the intonation, sometimes necessitating setting the intonation a tad flat to compensate. Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq. Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Yep, and in the higher registers, the fretting pressure seems to produce even more difference in pitch. I've used Peterson strobe tuners for many, many years. You just don't get better than that. I started out with one of the old mechanical strobe tuners (Model 420 IIRC), when it finally bit the dust I got a Peterson VSAM. The regular guitar tuners are not nearly precise enough for setting up intonation. "And so I definitely, when I have a daughter, I have a lot of good advice for her." ~Paris Hilton BWAAAHAAAHAAHAAA!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvuksanovich Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 Thanks again, gentlemen, for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Well, the further up the neck, the more displaced the string is when fretting. All the elements of set up are interactive when setting intonation (Obvious?), so it's always a multi-step, backtracking operation... ...I wonder: when one gets that far up, closer to the pickups, does magnetic pull come into play ? d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 ...I wonder: when one gets that far up, closer to the pickups, does magnetic pull come into play ? It can and does, if the pickups are two close to the strings- particularly on Strat-style guitars or with Strat-style pickups. Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvuksanovich Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 Interesting point. I'll back the pickups off a bit and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvuksanovich Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 So the Carvin manual recommends 5/32" pickup clearance. Do I measure that with or without fretting the string? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvuksanovich Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 I backed off the pickups and the intonation changed immediately. I think that was at least part of the problem. I re-intonated and now it's still a bit (though less so) sharp all the way up at 24, but it's much better up to and including the 22nd fret. You guys kick a**. Not being sharp all the time kicks a** too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq. Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Good! I'm glad you have it sorted out to your satisfaction. "And so I definitely, when I have a daughter, I have a lot of good advice for her." ~Paris Hilton BWAAAHAAAHAAHAAA!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I think you should just yank all the ferts above the 17th and have a little section of fertless slip 'n' slide wildness on that thar end o' th' neck-board... Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvuksanovich Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 What's a fert? So I thought you'd all find this funny... my band had rehearsal tonight and now that my guitar is sounding sweet it's painfully obvious that the other guitarist's guitar is waaaaaaaaaaaaay off. So now I've got another guitar to work on... and then I'll probably need to look at the bass when I'm done with that. Being the one who cares about stuff like this means that I'm now the "setup guy." Wonderful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 What's a fert? Something y'leave behind in an elevator. d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 So I thought you'd all find this funny... my band had rehearsal tonight and now that my guitar is sounding sweet it's painfully obvious that the other guitarist's guitar is waaaaaaaaaaaaay off. So now I've got another guitar to work on... and then I'll probably need to look at the bass when I'm done with that. Being the one who cares about stuff like this means that I'm now the "setup guy." Wonderful. Been there, STILL doing that! Watch out, once you get the other guy's guitar playing and sounding better, he'll start spontaneously bustin' up tha ferts while it's supposed to be YOUR turn to solo... BEEN THERE, EXPERIENCED EXACTLY THAT, TOO... (I even tune all the guitars- ALL of 'em- and the bass, as well as my own guitar, so that EVERYONE is DEFINITELY in tune, and in tune together... ) What's a fert? Something y'leave behind in an elevator. So Jaco went up the elevator twenty-floors to make the Weather Report? ...>*Mmmmmwhaaarrrrr*<... Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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