Theo Verelst Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I've said this before but I suppose people like having terabytes of samples with all kinds of sounds and the freedom to play with all kinds of user interfaces, but on the other hand the question is if the actual *playing* of the software is musically rewarding enough as compared to a well made instrument. Of course the eternal technical question can partially be answered by comparing the relevant CPU horsepower, useful memory sizes and the audio and keyboard interfaces and their relevant merits and curses. Bottom line IMO still is that a low of software (for possibly still mysterious reasons) just doesn't work that right or is too generic and too little special or even plain boring. Of course you'd still possibly be able to score a whole movie with some officially bought sample library set, which is probably that big nobody immediately things "hey that's a DX-7" or "why didn't they hire a professional". But besides that the software I've heared samples of and works from sounds pretty wrong, annoying at times and strangely similar, especially in (even moderate) mixes, which is a shame or "intelligent design", so I think only sheer sample size is mostly used on computers, except for some amount of mixing and processing, which honestly I'm also quite not fond of. That answers a different question than sheer technical ability, I'm sure a contemporary computer *could* bit-for-bit and including DA converter imitate e.g. a D50 or so. But it appears it doesn't. Theo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I see you have all the answers wise guy but it's not that easy as you'd like it to be. It is if you actually understand what you're talking about; you seem to want to be deliberately obtuse about this, so I'll leave you to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 computer + audio interface + cables + not road worthyTrue, but not quite. keyboard workstation + modules + second keyboard + cables are even more not road worthy, what's not to understand? If musician is good with computers he/she can set it up correctly for stage usageAgain, somewhat true, but not quite. Seriously. SG, here's a visual counterpoint: http://www.purgatorycreek.com/img/rack2.jpg. It's a pic of BurningBusch's gigging setup (inspiring - thanks Busch!). I think you'll agree - nothing particularly not-roadworthy there. Yet, motif - SG is absolutely right in one sense - with hardware, you get road-worthiness straight out of the box. The stuff's actually designed that way. Not so with a laptop + interface. Don't know about burningbusch, but in my experience, it takes a *lot* of painful experience, trial and error, before you can get a setup that is actually as road-(and stage)-worthy as a workstation setup. Possible? Yes. Easy? Hell, no. For most gigging musos, the investment of time and effort is prohibitive - hardware is simply the smarter option. By a huge margin. Anecdotal, but slightly OT - I've been using Linux in my non-musical professional/personal life for more than a decade now. My setup is often admired by friends and colleagues - things that are a PITA, or almost impossible, on their Win systems, they see me doing easily, and much better. What is *not* obvious is the sheer amount of... that I've had to go through, in the initial years. It's paying off for me now, BIG time. But I very rarely recommend it to anyone else (was actually a bit evangelical, back in the day). Yes, it has a lot to do with how much of a techno-geek you are - but in most cases, it's simply not the sensible option. But when you really, really want to do something that you lies outside the bounds of normal use, and are the DIY kinda person - that's when it pays off. Big time. Obvious parallel with the laptop Vs hardware question. There's no simple, straightforward answer (sorry, SG). It depends on your aptitude, how much headache you're willing to put up with, and what your musical goals are. This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I wouldn't get a Kronos for its workstation capability. I'd use a computer for that. You get a lot more; it's easier to use once you learn it, and it can be applied to a lot more than just the Kronos. If I were to get a Kronos, it would be because I like it as an instrument: for its keyboard and its sounds. The fact that it has so much in one package is definitely a plus. I used to gig with laptop and one keyboard. I switched the laptop for an NE2. The laptop sounded better, but the NE2 is a quicker setup and provides a top tier keyboard. It sounds way good enough, for everything but piano. In the studio, software instruments have a big advantage over hardware ones. For one, no additional hardware setup required; if your keyboard is still packed from a gig, you don't need to unpack it (unless you need the keyboard to record MIDI). For another, mixdowns happen at CPU speeds, much faster than real time. Let me clarify that. This applies only if you record MIDI from your keyboard, and play back the MIDI to your keyboard to use its sounds. That way you can edit the MIDI to fix a flub here or there, etc. (If you record your keyboards audio only, skip this.) Well, whenever you change the MIDI part, you either need to have the keyboard connected to play it back, or you need to "render MIDI to audio" by playing the MIDI to the keyboard and recording the audio from the keyboard. This step happens in real time: if it's a 3-minute song, it takes 3 minutes. With a software instrument, any MIDI changes you make are instantaneous. No need to re-render the audio, and even if you do render MIDI to audio (to save CPU time to get more tracks or allow more FX) it happens as fast as your CPU can do it, usually considerably less time than the 3 minutes of the song. In addition, no need to tweak & check audio recording settings each time. I like my digital piano, but I sampled it so that I can use the samples as a software instrument when I'm recording, just for the convenience. Software kicks ass. But, from what I've heard, so does the Kronos. My suggestion: start out and collect some software. There are lots of inexpensive but high quality options. Here are some suggestions for Windows: (Logic for Mac) DAW: Reaper, Multitrack Studio, or n-Track (all under $100, all full-featured) sample player: sfz (free) or sfz+ ($50) piano: TruePianos ($180), Splendid Grand soundfont (free) EP: jRhodes3 soundfont (free), Scarbee (various prices depending on what you get) Even with all these, you may still want a Kronos, but you'll use most of them if you have a Kronos. No doubt folks here have plenty of additional suggestions for inexpensive software instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 ... I don't know that there's a single hardware instrument out there with the sonic capabilites I have in my Laptop. I lost big time in the ease of use department. Someone with an average, run of the mill workstation can probably setup a split or layer in a minute or less.... maybe even 30 seconds or less. For me, I wouldn't even consider trying it on a gig, even on a sound check. EVERYTHING has to be thought out & planned. Wanna be able to control filter cutoff during a solo? No problem, just don't try to set it up on the fly. With my old XP-80 however, I had a dedicated slider (with 1 button push to confirm assignment) for this, ready to go, anytime a whim hits me. For my regular band, this is no problem. I've done the homework & I'm ready to go with any song in our repertoire. On fill in gigs, it's a whole frigging lot more work preparing that it would've been on my old, albeit infereior rompler. Sometime ago, I'd programmed my laptop-based setup for on-the-fly changes. Somewhat like in a Nord, if I'm not mistaken. It's possible, but took a *lot* of work. The end result was quite satisfying - a few button pushes, and you have a complex split/layer arrangement. All relevant parameters 'exposed' via hardware sliders and knobs. However, there are no 'out of the box' solutions for this - had to patch together different midi-processing plugins, do complicated CC routing... Took me lot of time to get it working. Much less time to realise it wasn't very useful in my musical context . Recently re-programmed everything, going back to a more pre-fixed route, with minimal set of parameters exposed (suggestions in this thread helped...!). Bottomline - what you're looking for *can* be achieved, but it's not straightforward. You can actually have a 'preset' mode and an 'on-the-fly' mode, and switch between them. Plus, the laptop route for gigging tends to be very unforgiving about half-measures - you can't enjoy the benefits until that last, tiny thing is taken care of. And that wretched last, tiny thing usually takes forever to fix! This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 computer + audio interface + cables + not road worthyTrue, but not quite. Hey AG... I was going to rebut, but you basically did so in the latter half of that reply, so we're on the same page here. I was also referring to convenience, where a workstation is a closed system rather than an open, component-based system. Workstations also have customized operating systems that do just what the instrument needs, rather than being a 'ready-for-anything' OS like Windows or Mac OS X. Plug a workstation in, connect audio and pedals, turn it on and play (well, wait 2.5 minutes for it to boot up if it's a Kronos ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I was also referring to convenience, where a workstation is a closed system rather than an open, component-based system. Now this is well put. Another anology - iPhone Vs. Android. Plug a workstation in, connect audio and pedals, turn it on and play (well, wait 2.5 minutes for it to boot up if it's a Kronos ). This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offnote Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 I was also referring to convenience, where a workstation is a closed system rather than an open, component-based system. Now this is well put. Another anology - iPhone Vs. Android. really? what is convenient for one person it is not necessary convenient for other...I have returned Ipad2 and bought Android tablet Thrive exactly because iPad was "too convenient". I could only do what Apple wanted me to do on this device, nothing more. I said no way I could live with that. In addition to limiting what you can do or not they also charge you a premium for that "favor"... Same applies to keyboards workstations and I just want to set myself free from it as I did with computers in other areas. p.s. BTW my grandma loves iPad and I can understand her completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 really? what is convenient for one person it is not necessary convenient for other... The inverse is also true... you seem to have trouble grasping that point. However, if you're such an "outside the box" person, why would you ever have "workstation keyboards gas" as your subject states? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offnote Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 So I got myself roland VS-Studio 100 in my studio hooked up with sony i7/6GB RAM/500GB, 7200 RPM HD/16 inch laptop (in dual screen mode with 22 inch monitor) loaded with Sonar Studio and Pianoteq software plus roland RD700GX as a controller and I couldn't be happier. Unlimited tracks on big screens, easy and flexible editing, hardware control give me really nice project recording experience. It's completely not comparable to any workstations I got before. I have tried to record something on kronos and its screen packed tight with small icons etc was really hard on my eyes, couldn't stand it. BTW the V-Studio 100 is really great little unit for recording and controlling surface with it. Anyway I think I set myself free from workstation keyboards chase, probably for good. p.s. thanks for the inspirational pic http://www.purgatorycreek.com/img/rack2.jpg. It's a pic of BurningBusch's gigging setup (inspiring - thanks Busch!). I think you'll agree - nothing particularly not-roadworthy there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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