Ross Brown Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Short story... our guy is talented and a nice guy. At this point ( a few months in) I still don't feel like we lock in. The drummer and I are right on but as much as we may hate to admit it.... the bass must also lock in with the guitar... In your experiences does this come with time or has it always happened right away for you (locking in with the guitar player... being on the same page, in the same vibe/groove)? I think part of the problem is that the guy does not practice enough so he is thinking too much when we play together... who knows...? Thanks... "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklab Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 More often than not, I do NOT make a concerted effort to lock in with a guitar player. But when I've spoken with guitar players about this very subject, a number of them have said that they try to lock in with the drummer. And when you look at it from that standpoint it makes sense. I'm trying to lock in with the drummer, so why shouldn't the guitar player? Very often that works. Because if a guitar player is playing a rhythm part, he may very well be accenting a different part of the beat than the bass. I don't see that as a bad thing. Obligatory Social Media Link "My concern is, and I have to, uh, check with my accountant, that this might bump me into a higher, uh, tax..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky McDougall Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 It's not your job to lock in with anyone but the drummer. Your guitarist needs to know that. "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb, voting on what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb, contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 good perspective... he should lock in with the drums too... that might do it... Just took a call from drummer with same complaint... guitard is all over the place... (we played terrible last night.... can you tell???). "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcadmus Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Sounds like he's not listening to what anyone else is doing. Golly for a guitar player, that's so...unusual... "Tours widely in the southwestern tip of Kentucky" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumpelstiltskin. Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 most songs the bass follows the drums, but some songs the bass follows the guitar. it's important that all players have good groove. you may have discovered that your guitar player does not. hopefully it's something he can work on, though. robb. because i like people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 When I play guitar, I try to lock in with the drummer AND the bass player, although not always at the same time. Sometimes, I expect them lock up with what I'm doing. And sometimes, I expect them to be a solid foundation for me to play over. It all depends on what's going on.I don't know what your guitarist is doing, but it sounds like there is a musical power struggle going on, perhaps unbeknownst to anyone involved in it, about who is going to lead and who is going to follow. Have you spoken to him about paying attention to what is going on around him rather than just playing his parts? Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Everyone should be playing in time and there is no excuse not to. There is a time feel which could be ahead of the beat, on the beat, or behind the beat and could also include the "swing factor", the degree of swing which can vary from straight eighths to straight triplet feel and include everything in between and also beyond. This feel is usually set by the drummer, but not always. Most drummers have one place where they are most comfortable. Since I play with many different drummers, I have to remember where that place is and be there instantly. It's rare that a drummer will adjust to me. Since SNF reminded me that I used to have a theory thread going here on the forum, I will soon start at rhythmic feel thread going at which time I'll go into depth about what I have been talking about. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottom End Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Sounds like he's not listening to what anyone else is doing. Golly for a guitar player, that's so...unusual... +1 If the guitarist is off the tempo, he's wrong. "Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me, yet you cannot play upon me.'-Hamlet Guitar solos last 30 seconds, the bass line lasts for the whole song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I think part of the problem is that the guy does not practice enough That's all you need to know. Record a practice and play it back to him. Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plangentmusic Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Record and analyze. Until you do that, everything is speculative. It's isn't mysterious or magical. You're either on tempo or not. JAZZ UN-STANDARDS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vE4FoJ4Cr4&feature=related DON'T FEAR...THE REVERB! 60's Instrumentals with MORE BASS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cthulhu Fhtagn Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Everyone should be playing in time and there is no excuse not to. There is a time feel which could be ahead of the beat, on the beat, or behind the beat and could also include the "swing factor", the degree of swing which can vary from straight eighths to straight triplet feel and include everything in between and also beyond. This feel is usually set by the drummer, but not always. Most drummers have one place where they are most comfortable. Since I play with many different drummers, I have to remember where that place is and be there instantly. It's rare that a drummer will adjust to me. Since SNF reminded me that I used to have a theory thread going here on the forum, I will soon start at rhythmic feel thread going at which time I'll go into depth about what I have been talking about. JC: I've done some reading when I was evolving my jazz chops. I think someone referred to it as "the couch". You can sit in the middle (on the beat), on one side (ahead of the beat) or the other side (behind the beat). There is a time and place for that. Does that ring a bell? As I recall, that theory thread grew rather long. Maybe YOU should write a book. Music theory with the bassist in mind? Ross: Project Doomed had a guitar with that issue (yeah, I know. But I'm only kvetching about one guitarist). When playing, he was too loud and impervious to anything anyone else was doing. In addition, he memorized songs incorrectly (the extra two beats in the intro to China Grove drove the drummer nuts). This guy has been giving guitar lessons for the last 10 years and has little or no live band experience which is probably the root of the problem. Does your guy have much of a live performance background? Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 Everyone should be playing in time and there is no excuse not to. There is a time feel which could be ahead of the beat, on the beat, or behind the beat and could also include the "swing factor", the degree of swing which can vary from straight eighths to straight triplet feel and include everything in between and also beyond. This feel is usually set by the drummer, but not always. Most drummers have one place where they are most comfortable. Since I play with many different drummers, I have to remember where that place is and be there instantly. It's rare that a drummer will adjust to me. Since SNF reminded me that I used to have a theory thread going here on the forum, I will soon start at rhythmic feel thread going at which time I'll go into depth about what I have been talking about. Does your guy have much of a live performance background? He does, but never as the only guitarist... "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 (the extra two beats in the intro to China Grove drove the drummer nuts). Ha! I used to gig with a sax player who would turn "A Foggy Day" into a 32 bar tune. Drove me nuts 'cause he routinely would also play outside the changes. The guitar player would sometimes be wise to the situation and cut the two bars also, but never gave me the Hi Sign to do the same. It was my fault for "not feeling it, man." Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Thorne Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Guitar player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 Thanks everyone. I do agree with the perspective that the guitar and bass both need to lock in with the drummer. Maybe I am saying this in a backwards way when I say guitar and bass should lock in. Long story short. Drummer is furious that we all work hard and guitarist does not practice (and it shows). I got feedback from other musicians (since I have since asked them) and the consensus is that the bass, drums and vocals are lock tight and the guitar is all over the place, including out of tune solos, dropped notes and rythmic issues, in a big way. He is talented but too busy to devote time to the set list. He has been released from the band... "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottom End Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 You gotta do what's right, it saves time and effort in the end. I got involved in a band, then started a new job that kept me from practicing enough or making rehearsals on a regular basis. The right thing was parting ways. "Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me, yet you cannot play upon me.'-Hamlet Guitar solos last 30 seconds, the bass line lasts for the whole song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Malone Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Some musicians can groove and some never will! Wally I have basses to play, places to be and good music to make! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Thorne Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 He has been released from the band... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 So. Gonna stay a trio and pocket the extra $, oar knot? Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 knot... "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bear Jew Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I think a lot of it comes down to communication--if the dude doesn't know he's screwing up, he can't even try to fix it. Some people can't hear the disparity between themselves and the rest of the band. As several people mentioned, a recording will shed light on this in a big way. You can't deny tape. I find that a lot of players (of any instrument) have individualistic senses of note value and feel, and that can make things pretty challenging when it comes to locking in as a band. I find a non-confrontational way to figure stuff out is to work on it during rehearsal. Say something like, "What am I hearing in there? I hear something weird? Hey, (guitar guy), is this what you're doing in that spot?" (Play approximation of guitar part on bass.) That usually gets them to play it for you, and at that point you can kind of say, "OH! That's what you're doing... OK... 'Cause we're doing this..." (Play part with drums and whoever else is in the band.) If he can't hear what he's doing wrong at that point, you kind of have a more serious problem. Unless he has compromising photos of you with a honey badger, you probably need to get someone else to play guitar. \m/ Erik "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." --Sun Tzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 If someone can't play in time, nothing you do in a rehearsal will help. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 This is a situation you'll always find in an amateur band. There will always be a weakest link. You just have to make sure it's not you. If you keep firing people who are not as good as you pretty soon everyone else will be better than you.... You can get very picky with the level of musicianship when really the audience don't notice. If you are getting gigs then often it's better to stick with a stable band, than to fire someone and not have a band. Sometimes it's because the guitarist is playing parts that are too hard for them (whether they would be better with practice isn't the issue) and you just have to make the decision to play simpler tunes. Feel the groove internally within your own creativity. - fingertalkin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 He was not open to discussion. He was critcal of bandmates. He was consistantly unprepared. This, all in addition to my OP of not locking in, etc. The band was going to kill me (for keeping him) or him (for being a flakey)... After my OP there was more discussion and heat from the rest of the band about this guy... There is a ton of more detail... but I think I'll just stop... I am really ready to be gigging every weekend again but I don't have any desire to do it poorly. "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 ... He was critcal of bandmates. ... That usually a sign that he knows he's not playing well and is trying to deflect attention away from himself. If the rest of the band were complaining then it must have been bad. Feel the groove internally within your own creativity. - fingertalkin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bear Jew Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 If someone can't play in time, nothing you do in a rehearsal will help. Oh, come on... you're a teacher. People can learn to play in time. It's a skill that can be built. Having said this, you probably don't want to have to work through basic guitar time-keeping rudiments during rehearsal time... but it's not like the dude couldn't become a better player if he was shown where he was doing the wrong thing. I mean, I get it--it's rehearsal, not a music lesson. But I see that he wasn't willing to do anything to improve, so I guess it's a moot point. I think it's interesting that the players who are most in need of improvement are often also the ones who are quickest to point their fingers at their band-mates when something doesn't sound right. Those types seem to be really defensive. I played with a guy like that before. It wasn't always fun. He eventually split, and things got a lot better. \m/ Erik "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." --Sun Tzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 who are most in need of improvement are often also the ones who are quickest to point their fingers Sounds like you're talking about my ex-wife. Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 ... That usually a sign that he knows he's not playing well and is trying to deflect attention away from himself. ... ... I think it's interesting that the players who are most in need of improvement are often also the ones who are quickest to point their fingers at their band-mates when something doesn't sound right. Those types seem to be really defensive. ... LOL. How's that for a cross post! In my experience good players who don't practice have lost interest. It's kinder to help them on their way.... Feel the groove internally within your own creativity. - fingertalkin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 I sometimes point my finger too... It may be at times when I am not doing my part, but I hope not... I am usually pretty self aware. When I am failing, I usually know it... Like now... failing to put a band together... much of it is my fault but like I said I don't want to be in a bad band (anymore). Also, for instance, I fail at being a real funky bass player... I still work on it, but not there yet. On funk songs, I am the weak link... not cool and I know it... but we do very few "funk" songs... I don't point to the drummer and say.."It's your fault"... I own it... Most people do... no problem. Trouble shoot and move on... "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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