Ross Brown Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 is it difficult for a guitarist to play a song in Eb? :confused:I asked to have a song that I sing played in Eb instead of E. I just tune down... It seemed to be a big fat hairy deal. Am I missing something? I was asked to sing it in E. I said "no. we can come back to it next week... in Eb". I could have tried, but I am not all that great at singing anyway... I wasn't looking for a reason to suck more. I like this guitarist.... I just didn't understand the problem. Help me. "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenstrum Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Does he have locked down tuners on his guitar? I once played with a guy who absolutely refused to tune down because of that. Tenstrum "Paranoid? Probably. But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face." Harry Dresden, Storm Front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b5pilot Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Shoot, have him de-tune a half step and he can play it normally. No biggie. It may be a big deal playing E flat if he uses a lot of open strings and can't transpose on the fly in regular tuning. Otherwise I can't see a big problem either. Lydian mode? The only mode I know has the words "pie ala" in front of it. http://www.myspace.com/theeldoradosband Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b5pilot Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Does he have locked down tuners on his guitar? I once played with a guy who absolutely refused to tune down because of that. Yeah that could be a problem. Doesn't he have another axe he can de-tune and bring with him? Most guitards I know at least have a couple. Lydian mode? The only mode I know has the words "pie ala" in front of it. http://www.myspace.com/theeldoradosband Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 I suggested detuning and if that is an issue... bring a second guitar. For gig I'll either quickly detune or have another bass waiting. I didn't know if there was an issue with guitards that I am unaware of... I was surprised by the response and figured I was just ignorant... I may be.... "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fingertalkin Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I think you should have tried to sing it in E and not complain that the guitardist didn't want to tune down. How do you sign a computer screen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bear Jew Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I don't get it. What's so hard about de-tuning a half step? Doesn't this guy know how to use a tuner? It takes about 30 seconds. Maybe he thought you wanted him to transpose the whole song down a half step without re-tuning. I could see a guitarist getting a little bent out of shape about that if they weren't able to think on their feet. Or, as previously mentioned, maybe there's a whole "double-locking trem system" concern. That would be a pain in the butt for changing tunings. Otherwise... yeah, I dunno. Maybe you just caught him on a cranky day. \m/ Erik "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." --Sun Tzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cthulhu Fhtagn Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 My classic rock project runs all night a half step low. What if the whole band was detuned the whole time? Can the rest of your set list still get sung? We stop six times a night for the gutiars to tune and empty their spit valves, so why not use one to drop tune? Jazz project changes keys all the time. I'm not a classic "change on the fly guy" (and subsequently get a little bent) and it's a pain in the bass, but I'm getting better at it. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Geoff Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Why not learn alternative chord shapes? Really! G. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the World will know Peace": Jimi Hendrix http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=738517&content=music The Geoff - blame Caevan!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I read an interview with one of the guys in ELP (can't remember if it was Emerson or Lake), but he pointed out that their rendition of Karn Evil 9 from their live album was played an entire step down from the recorded version on Brain Salad Surgery. If they can do it, I'm sure your guitarist can do it. "Everyone wants to change the world, but no one thinks of changing themselves." Leo Tolstoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Why not learn alternative chord shapes? Really! G. I thought this was maybe the hang up... Something like this maybe is asking too much??? But if figured just detune. It could have been done in the amount of time we talked about it. "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cthulhu Fhtagn Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 G. You play with middling hack guitarists much? Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 I think you should have tried to sing it in E and not complain that the guitardist didn't want to tune down. Thought about it but I have tried it before. It makes a big difference for me for some reason on this song. We had plenty to work on so I just moved on.... for now. "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddiePlaysBass Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Duh Ross, he built a time machine, traveled to the near future and saw you calling him a guitard here. Who wouldn't get angry? On a serious note, I think a lot of musicians get bent out of shape if something is left of centre. We ditched a song because it did not follow the traditional 12 bar blues shape but instead made the (exact same) chord changes sooner than you would expect. Is it so hard to go from the I to the IV to the V instead of I-IV-I-V? The answer, apparently, is yes. It is hard. "I'm a work in progress." Micky Barnes The Ross Brown Shirt World Tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Told me time machine wasn't working.... I thought I would be safe. Wonder what happens if I use mine and go back and don't post this.... or maybe post it before last night.... "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham56 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Playing it is one thing, but do you guys really retune during a gig? I wouldn't like to do it. My band already takes too much time faffing about between songs as it is. With much self-nagging and effort we are getting a bit better at it. But if we were to introduce retuning between songs that would probabaly set us back a hard-won stage. Middling hacks? Yep, that's us... Cheers Graham www.talkingstrawberries.com - for rocking' blues, raw and fresh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b5pilot Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Playing it is one thing, but do you guys really retune during a gig? Nope. That's the joys of having a 5 string and my guitard is pretty good at transposing/alternate chords. For the simple stuff we do anyways. Lydian mode? The only mode I know has the words "pie ala" in front of it. http://www.myspace.com/theeldoradosband Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 I grab a second bass. takes seconds. "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoodyBluesKeys Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Have you tried asking him to play it in D# instead of Eb? Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'm with the guitarist. I'm assuming you need to tune down because you have an open low E in the song. The guitar part probably has one of those too. In the key of E, he can play lots of chords with open strings and they have a certain sound. Using chords without open strings further up the neck will sound completely different. Go ahead, play Play That Funky Music White Boy in D without retuning and tell me how it sounds. Personally, I hate retuning (although occasionally I'll drop the E string down to D). Everything sounds funny to me when an E is not an E. Besides tuning down and then back up for one song takes time. The show should move faster than that. Bring a guitar tuned down to Eb and hand it to the guitarist for the one song. If you don't have a guitar, go buy a Squier strat or tele. It might come in handy at some other time and maybe you could even learn how to play it. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Have you tried asking him to play it in D# instead of Eb? yes. "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'm with the guitarist. I'm assuming you need to tune down because you have an open low E in the song. The guitar part probably has one of those too. In the key of E, he can play lots of chords with open strings and they have a certain sound. Using chords without open strings further up the neck will sound completely different. Go ahead, play Play That Funky Music White Boy in D without retuning and tell me how it sounds. Personally, I hate retuning (although occasionally I'll drop the E string down to D). Everything sounds funny to me when an E is not an E. Besides tuning down and then back up for one song takes time. The show should move faster than that. Bring a guitar tuned down to Eb and hand it to the guitarist for the one song. If you don't have a guitar, go buy a Squier strat or tele. It might come in handy at some other time and maybe you could even learn how to play it. I'm firmly with Mr. C on this one. If you need the half step to sing it (and that's very important: it's gotta be in your wheelhouse if it's going to sound good), then have the whole band tune down a 1/2 step for the whole gig, ala Van Halen or Extreme, or a whole mess of others. Packing an extra guitar for one or two tunes is not energy efficient. Granted, some tunes can be played in any key on guitar and your fella is just a butt-head; but others just don't translate well. What tune are you talking about? Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Sympathy for the Devil. I sound like I am way out of my range in E. When I do it in Eb it is just fine. Very well could be my limitations and inexperience as a singer but so be it. I didn't think I was asking much when I asked to change the key. I agree that the set must keep moving and no one wants to hear the tuning song. I can throw a different bass on in seconds. I can tune down in less than 30 seconds, on mute. Guitar might take longer, agreed. "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bear Jew Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Or just play everything tuned a half-step lower. Make Eb your standard tuning for the band. Plenty of people do that. \m/ Erik "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." --Sun Tzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Thorne Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Sympathy for the Devil. I sound like I am way out of my range in E. When I do it in Eb it is just fine. Very well could be my limitations and inexperience as a singer but so be it. I didn't think I was asking much when I asked to change the key. Aw, fer cryin' out loud. Play it in D. This tune does NOT depend on a low E guitar note,and if you play in D it'll be fine. Guitar players fear flats, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 And the bass doesn't play a low E in that song. It'll sound fine in D. Problem solved. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 I just tried singing it in D.. and playing it.... This may be the answer. Sounds fine. Certainly worth a try. Thanks.. "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Malone Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I've always been of the thought that the singer needs to be in a key that works. A 1/2 step can make a big difference. Tuning down a 1/2 step shouldn't be difficult or take too long. Wally I have basses to play, places to be and good music to make! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele C. Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Personally, I hate retuning (although occasionally I'll drop the E string down to D). Everything sounds funny to me when an E is not an E. One likely reason for not detuning is locking nuts and bridges. An other possible reason is bridge balance: detuning a Les Paul or a Telecaster does not make the brisge springs move as they do on a Stratocaster. Guitars with tremolo are a matter of equilibrium between strings and springs (make that one more entry for the name my band thread). A third reason is that things sound funny. I have been told buy a keyboardist that while it is very easy to detune a MIDI keyboard to play in an easier key, it can make one feel uncomfortable because things are not in the right place. My son an my daughter have perfect pitch and can tell if a key does not play the right note. I do not have perfect pitch, but when I play along with something overheard on the radio, I get my fingers in the right spots almost always on first try, even if I cannot tell what notes I am hearing. I am not sure if tricking this sort of sense with detuning can make some people feel uncomfortable. -- Michele Costabile (http://proxybar.net) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Thorne Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I'm a big fan of bands doing their own versions of tunes , anyway. If the lead singer can't sing in the same key as the artist on the recording it presents a perfect opportunity to make the tune one's own. In my band we have not found audiences to object to a slightly different take on a well-known tune, by and large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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