Overplaying....

[Phil W]

Chad, don't think, just feel. Returning to the original post, I do think jam sessions are often a great source of bad playing because no musician plays at his or her best when they try to hard or try to impress. We play better when our conscious minds are distracted and we just play. There has also unfortunately been a competitive element in jam sessions with people finding any and every opportunity to throw in their favouite licks or the chops they've been working on all week. I tend to avoid jam sessions nowadays but I do hope I can be proved wrong.

[EddiePlaysBass]

I wonder if last night during rehearsal I was overplaying. We were working on two Aynsley Lister songs, both of which have quite busy walking bass lines (I suppose because it is a bass/drum/guitar set-up, like my current band). I have to admit I have not spent the time learning said lines note for note but just wrote down the changes and improvise from there.

 

Singer kept telling me "there's something about [my] bass line" that was off. I tended to play from the octave down on the third bar of B (of four), rather than always start on the root. Seemed to throw him off. That or I was just playing wrong notes - I have to listen to the recording But I in no way feel obliged to start every bar on the root just to accommodate the singer - or should I?

[Chad Thorne]

I wonder if last night during rehearsal I was overplaying. We were working on two Aynsley Lister songs, both of which have quite busy walking bass lines (I suppose because it is a bass/drum/guitar set-up, like my current band). I have to admit I have not spent the time learning said lines note for note but just wrote down the changes and improvise from there.

 

Singer kept telling me "there's something about [my] bass line" that was off. I tended to play from the octave down on the third bar of B (of four), rather than always start on the root. Seemed to throw him off. That or I was just playing wrong notes - I have to listen to the recording But I in no way feel obliged to start every bar on the root just to accommodate the singer - or should I?

IMO it depends. Jazz bass players will often not play the root where we might expect it to be played. In blues/R&B, I think I have to land on the root on strong beats, locking in with the kick drums, to establish/maintain the groove.

 

I suggest you learn the recorded bass line pretty closely, if not note for note. Couple of reasons. 1) The singer, your bandmate, hears something "off." Either he's subconsciously not hearing the notes he expects to hear from the recording and it bugs him, or something you're doing/not doing is affecting the groove negatively. 2) If he can hear it, probably others could, too.

 

Play the recorded bass line, play the heck out of it, and let people tell you what an awesome bass player you are. As time goes on, if you want to change it up a bit, do it sneakily so nobody notices. My $00.02.

[TimR]

Why do you play bass? Is it to show off? Is it to be part of a band playing good music?

 

Some sessions there is a list and the organiser selects people in strict rotation, sometimes musicians see others play and invite them to play with them on the strength of what they have just seen. In the second situation which bass players are being approached the most?

 

If you're going to a jam session to promote yourself, do some market research, if the guitarists and vocalists want bass players who play roots then play roots with something tasteful thrown in. Otherwise (or if you are there just to be a prima-donna) go on push the boat out.

[Bottom End]

Starting off on a different octave throws off the singer? Hmmm. I could imagine it throwing him off, but unless it's some classic bass line that is inseparably THE HOOK for the song, it seems a bit picky. Listen to any classic blues album, the bass player is playing the box pattern about 99% percent of the time, but they throw in a little something, especially if the groove is happening and the players are starting to stretch out. The singer might thinks it wrong because it's not something he's used to, but it's not musically wrong, or wrong for the groove.

 

Maybe you can do a root & octave a little faster to start, and don't do it every time it comes around, maybe only during the solo(S)?

 

IS the singer playing guitar also? I'd recommend you, the guitarist and the singer just work through the passage a few times playing it both ways, see what works, and go with it.

 

I recommend you also

[rockinredneck69]

I think overplaying is simply a moment in my own mind where I hear myself go to far or in some instances someone else, when you know you pushed too far and grabbed a note you shouldn't have. To me, its simply an experience gained type of moment. Hate when it happens, but it does. Sticking to the groove will keep you on the right track every time.

[Michele C.]

I think it's time to stop this mantra. Overplaying is fun, overplaying is good, overplaying is what the song needs.

First let me rule out slapping, I think it is a colour that should be used very sparingly and only when needed, like a drum fill. I would also rule out pointless scale spelling that does count other than like gymnastics.

For the rest, I like overplaying bassists and always have liked them.

Like Paul Mc Cartney in Something. Too much bass, yes, but it does not clash with the song, it just adds dimension and contrapunct, Schubert would have done it that way. Like Chris Squire, doing his strong and complex foundations, John Entwistle doing his best to sustain the song in a trio plus singer, Jack Bruce soloing when Clapton was soloing, creating intricate patterns like in a classical string trio, like Greg Lake and so on.

I think that the bass should be melodic like any other part, with just more stringent requisites on time, but still melodic, as Sir Paul seed it. Think something between cello and contrabass in a string quartet. It should go with the singer.

 

[Ross Brown]

My original post was directed to overplaying that did not fit the song/band. Playing a lot, when it fits the song is not overplay.

 

The playing ended up sounding like junk/mud. It wasn't the sound set up because there were a couple that sounded great using the same set up. When I watched and listened to the overplayers, it was clear what was going on.

 

 

[lug]

I've been wildly successful avoiding over-playing by studiously avoiding any technique that would allow me to over-play in the first place. Don't be jealous.

[picker]

, but it worked for this tune at that time. When you get the author and performer of the tune's explicit approval, even if it is overplaying, it's all good.

[TimR]

A good musician is one who understands his instrument's role within the song.

 

In that clip he was accompanying as a kind of solo bass player. An interesting role o try to fill. I thought some of his 'frilly' bits were too frilly and in the wrong places and he could have played better in other places. But then I'm not Bona. I saw him in London last year with a few of the guys from this forum. I was very impressed and think he could have played much more and probably better than he did in that clip.

 

I think overplaying happens more when you are competing unnecessarily with the other musicians on stage.

[Eric Iverson]

I'm a guitarist, and what little bass playing I've done is mostly tasteful - once in a while throwing in a fast line or two, if I HEAR it.

"Overplaying" is a judgment call, I think; one man's overplay is another man's cup of tea. And, for me at least, it depends on my mood. For example I love both Eric Johnson and Allan Holdsworth - neither is by any stretch a mindless wanker. Sometimes, though, I JUST DON'T FEEL LIKE HEARING ALL THOSE NOTES!!

Good musicians take just as much pride in their slow playing as in the flashy stuff, and don't play a zillion notes all the time. Check out Coltrane, for just one example.

[bassin bill]

if you really want to impress in this situation, go the other route > LEAVE BIG HOLES. it can really make the rhythm do some amazing things. anybody can overplay, not many can leave holes for other things to stick through...

[bassbuddy]

Hi guys,

 

The biggest compliment I got about my playing was a couple of months ago when this MD from a famous group was in the audience at a gig. I did not know he was there until break, and after the next set he told me that I did not try to show boat, just play solid pocket, after I knew he was there.. ...made my night. Playing simple ALWAYS pays off as a bass player, (unless you are a solo bass player like Victor or Marcus where people come to see that).

 

Best,

kENNy

[Imogene]

Playing simple ALWAYS pays off as a bass player, (unless you are a solo bass player like Victor or Marcus where people come to see that).

 

Best,

kENNy

 

 

This is a bass player's forum and I think that these are some words of wisdom for such. I've been with projects where the MD has told me to hold back and play less (all the while complimenting me on my playing...? sigh.) and others that have told me I need to not do that play more than I would think otherwise. I don't know what to do half the time, so I just be myself, do what I do and take constructive criticism, constructively. I love to take direction from people who are more experienced than me. The last thing that I need is to be coddled and told that what I'm doing is GREAT (when it isn't great).

 

There was a Jon Herrera ed on confidence a few months back in the BP mag. That was a good read that I could really identify with because I've been there so many times. This forum reminds me of how needy many people (bass players) are for acceptance. Overplaying? Confidence? Something else? I don't know for sure. But yeah, playing it simple always pays off as a bass player.

[bassbuddy]

Thanks buddy...playing simple has landed me some major gigs and I am thankful.

 

Best,

kENNy

[Vicious]

Being that bass is such a heavy instrument, I try to always be where the music needs me. Guitarist can get away with accidentals most of the time. A funny sounding note on bass is very noticeable. Always remember; unless it's your solo gig, your main purpose is to keep time and tastefully complete the chords. The band sounds really thin without you.

[Phil W]

You'd sometimes never guess that music was an art form.

[TimR]

You're not wrong Phil. It's because it is an art form that everybody has a different view of what is tasteful and what isn't. I always like to compare music and painting. If you look at Constable's Haywain, amongst some of the most recognisable and famous paintings. He didn't paint the whole scene accurately, he left trees out and added them where there weren't any. He changed the horses too. In fact he wasn't even there when he painted it:

 

http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/john-constable-the-hay-wain

 

You don't often hear people say - well he shouldn't have put that tree there, it would have been better there, or he should have left the other trees in. I would have put more hay on the wagon or more people in the fields.

 

Most people sit back and look at the painting and say ahh that looks nice.

 

I think this may be because artists study the masters and learn from them what is tasteful, what works, what people like. If you don't understand these principles then your creativity can be misplaced.

 

Even Damien Hurst and Tracey Emin studied art, and although what they create looks wrong and shocking to many people - they know what they are doing and why.

[Davo-London]

Tricky isn't it.

 

If a player is doing a clinic or a demo then it would seem that a bit of overplaying/pyrotechnics is required.

 

If you are in a band and playing a gig or service then you shouldn't be overplaying.

 

So, at a jam where there are a lot of fellow musicians of the same instrument, it must be impossible not to overplay, but maybe that's the real goal. If you can stand up and root the band with fantastic groovy bass, maybe just maybe, you would be recognised?

 

Just a thought.

 

Davo

[jeremy c]

There seems to be a difference in general between the UK and the US. In general it seems like creativity is more important in one place and the almighty groove is more important in the other place.

 

Now let's discuss which is which.

 

[bassbuddy]

Hi Jeremy...hope all is well.

 

Ok, I can be the 1st one to start on your fine observation. Paul McCartney, John Paul Jones, and Jon Entwhistle were all incredibly creative bass players but also incredibly locked. I did not realize how great all of these bass players were until I was older. Us American bass players were growing up listening to Motown and rock and pop all on the same radio station so we had a R+B feel that was traditionally pocket and less. The English bass players were totally awesome though.

 

Best,

kENNy

[Bottom End]

There seems to be a difference in general between the UK and the US. In general it seems like creativity is more important in one place and the almighty groove is more important in the other place.

 

Now let's discuss which is which.

 

Trick Question!

 

IMO, The Brits have done a great job of selling us the groove back after copping licks off of under-publicized American music as in the first British Invasion making American blues cool to mainstream American listeners, or the late 70's British New Wave selling back R&B licks, (especially the bass players).

 

The only real difference is that it seems like a lot of Brits play bass with a plectrum, whereas Americans seems to lean towards fingerstyle.

[TimR]

I saw a band last night. Something was wrong from the off. The guitarist was awesome, the drummer solid, the keys tasteful, but the bass player was all over the fretboard. There was somethinig else missing though. After about 6 songs my friend (non musician) said they're all very good individually, but they're not playing together. I listened harder and decided that it was the bass player. He just wasn't locking in with the drummer.

 

For the last 2 tunes for the first set and the first 2 tunes of the second set the guitarist and bass player swapped instruments. The new bass player locked in with the drums and kept it simple, the new guitarist played probably the best guitar playing I have seen in a while.

 

So I came to the conclusion that they couldn't find a bass player and decided to go for 2 guitarists and share the duties.

 

After all a guitar is just a bass with 2 less strings isn't it

 

So maybe next time a bass player is overplaying I'll try to work out if he is just a guitarist filling in.