Purpose of angled pickups?

[SteveC]

Looking at the new Godin bass thread got me thinking. Why angle pickups? Godin isn't the only maker to do this. Roscoe comes to mind. I think Dingwall does. I'm sure there are others.

 

What is gained by this design? Is it purely cosmetic?

[rumpelstiltskin.]

it is a matter of managing harmonics to achieve a desired tonality.

 

what?

 

when a string vibrates, as you well know, the fundamental isn't the only frequency of vibration. there are harmonics (mulitples of the fundamental frequency) which also vibrate on the string, but the funny thing is they have specific locations.

 

that is why pickup placement matters. that is why the neck pickup sounds darker or thicker than the bridge pickup. it has to do with where it is placed in relation to these harmonics. and depending upon where you place the pickup you will have different concentrations of different harmonics.

 

and some people think that having more high harmonics is better on the B or E strings than it is on the G or C strings. so they angle the pickup to get the right mix of tonality for each string.

 

angling isn't the only way to do that:

 

http://www.glguitars.com/instruments/USA/guitars/pics/large/COMANCHE-honeyburst.jpg

 

robb.

[98HondaCivic]

http://www.acousticavenues.org/images/instruments/peavey_t20.jpg

 

I saw one of these at a friend's house a few months back, and wondered the same thing. I don't actually know why they are angled, but I figured I'd contribute to the confusion.

 

Edit: It's a Peavey Fury, I forgot to mention.

[Paul K]

Are the ones on the G&L split pickups like on a P-Bass? If so, then that one would be a hum canceling thing. Or, they just look cool. Nothing wrong with that.

[jeremy c]

yes, the G&L pickups are humbucking like P pickups.

[jcadmus]

Looks cool?

[JBFLA]

Looking at the new Godin bass thread got me thinking. Why angle pickups? Roscoe comes to mind.

What is gained by this design? Is it purely cosmetic?

 

All my Roscoes have the slanted 'pups. Maybe more aesthetics, but I also think they reproduce the upper mids more accurately. Strictly a personal choice...

 

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll253/JBFLA/Roscoe%20Family%20Album/RoscoeFamilyII009.jpg

[rumpelstiltskin.]

Are the ones on the G&L split pickups like on a P-Bass? If so, then that one would be a hum canceling thing. Or, they just look cool. Nothing wrong with that.

 

while they may be humbucking, you can certainly have a straight or stacked pair of coils that are humbucking, too.

 

robb.

[The Geoff]

it is a matter of managing harmonics to achieve a desired tonality.

 

....... they have specific locations.

 

that is why pickup placement matters. that is why the neck pickup sounds darker or thicker than the bridge pickup. it has to do with where it is placed in relation to these harmonics. and depending upon where you place the pickup you will have different concentrations of different harmonics.

 

and some people think that having more high harmonics is better on the B or E strings than it is on the G or C strings. so they angle the pickup to get the right mix of tonality for each string.

 

angling isn't the only way to do that:

 

http://www.glguitars.com/instruments/USA/guitars/pics/large/COMANCHE-honeyburst.jpg

 

robb.

 

Firstly, I think the pickup design has more to do with hum-cancelling (A La P Bass pickups) than it does with extra harmonics.

 

Second point - The Sweet Spot - IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!

 

Reason (and this is physics) The Harmonics & Overtones change position EVERY TIME you stop down on a fret.

 

On an open string, the octave is above the 12 fret, ie exactly half-way between the top & bottom termination of the vibrating string.

 

Stop down on the 5th fret, the octave for that note is above the 17th fret, which is the halfway point between the finger stop & the bridge. And so on, for every fretting position. Therefore the harmonics move all over the place.

 

Now, while it is undoubtably true that positioning a pickup in several different places will produce several different sets of overtone/harmonics, this is special only for the open string, because as soon as each string is stopped down the position for every harmonic changes with respect to the fret selected.

 

A 'Sweet Spot' would exist if the harmonics all stayed in the same place.

 

But they don't.

 

So there is no such thing with reference to general playing.

 

A P Bass, for example would definitely sound different if the pup was placed differently, but we are used to how it sounds where Leo put it. If Leo had placed it somewhere else, would we be clamouring now to have it changed, or would we have accepted it & said it too, is a 'Sweet Spot', simply because that's the way Leo did it?

 

And Leo knew best.

 

(Pulls on fireproof suit & runs for cover.........)

 

G.

[b5pilot]

Hmmm, I thought it was for evening out the timbre of the strings. Making the higher strings not sound as nasal and/or tightening up the sound of the lower strings.

 

My Warwick thumb 5 string has angled pickups.

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg285/wildwookster/100_1369.jpg

[zeronyne]

Firstly, I think the pickup design has more to do with hum-cancelling (A La P Bass pickups) than it does with extra harmonics.

 

Second point - The Sweet Spot - IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!

 

Reason (and this is physics) The Harmonics & Overtones change position EVERY TIME you stop down on a fret.

 

On an open string, the octave is above the 12 fret, ie exactly half-way between the top & bottom termination of the vibrating string.

 

Stop down on the 5th fret, the octave for that note is above the 17th fret, which is the halfway point between the finger stop & the bridge. And so on, for every fretting position. Therefore the harmonics move all over the place.

 

Now, while it is undoubtably true that positioning a pickup in several different places will produce several different sets of overtone/harmonics, this is special only for the open string, because as soon as each string is stopped down the position for every harmonic changes with respect to the fret selected.

 

A 'Sweet Spot' would exist if the harmonics all stayed in the same place.

 

But they don't.

 

So there is no such thing with reference to general playing.

 

A P Bass, for example would definitely sound different if the pup was placed differently, but we are used to how it sounds where Leo put it. If Leo had placed it somewhere else, would we be clamouring now to have it changed, or would we have accepted it & said it too, is a 'Sweet Spot', simply because that's the way Leo did it?

 

And Leo knew best.

 

(Pulls on fireproof suit & runs for cover.........)

 

G.

 

First, you're not really refuting what Robb was saying. Robb was not talking about a sweet spot, nor did he say that the combinations of harmonics stay constant as the string is fretted.

 

Second, I don't think "sweet spot" as you use it is ow it is used in stringed instruments. Tennis rackets, yes. Studio monitor placement, yes again. I think most people (as it pertains to bass) consider a sweet spot to be the particular place where a particular pickup sounds best, which is about as subjective as it gets.

 

And technically, Leo Fender did not necessarily know best...all we know for sure is that he was, for all practical purposes, first, and his concept of a great bass sound became iconic, and there were many non-qualitative and non-quantitative reasons why that happened, i.e. the engineer doesn't feel like moving anything on the console, so you better bring a P Bass like the last guy.

[EddiePlaysBass]

Second point - The Sweet Spot - IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!

 

That's what I keep telling my girlfriend

[SteveC]

Hmmm, I thought it was for evening out the timbre of the strings. Making the higher strings not sound as nasal and/or tightening up the sound of the lower strings.

 

My Warwick thumb 5 string has angled pickups.

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg285/wildwookster/100_1369.jpg

 

That makes some sense to me. The G string area of the pickup is a little further from the bridge than the B string which may give the B a little more definition or clarity while keeping the G string from being thin or whatever.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

Hmmm, I thought it was for evening out the timbre of the strings. Making the higher strings not sound as nasal and/or tightening up the sound of the lower strings.

 

My Warwick thumb 5 string has angled pickups.

 

That makes some sense to me. The G string area of the pickup is a little further from the bridge than the B string which may give the B a little more definition or clarity while keeping the G string from being thin or whatever.

 

this is truth. because as the G said, whenever you fret, you're changing the location of the harmonics. at the same time, the farther you move to either end of the string, the less fundamental and second harmonic you will have. in other words, there will definitely be a greater concentration of higher harmonics towards the ends of the strings.

 

you will get less low end the closer the pickups are to the bridge, and you will get more low end the closer the pickups are to the neck. irrespective of any mythical sweet spot.

 

perhaps, qualitatively, tonal balance is perceived when pickups are angled. some people love a classic P arrangement, but others prefer it reversed to get more definition out of the low strings. the warwick thumb has pickups angled toward the neck on the high strings; roscoe basses angle their pickups toward the bridge on the high strings. both basses are popular and sound good to me, in different ways.

 

robb.

[Davo-London]

Now I have played a ton of Jazzes in my time. I love the sound of the bridge PU - I don't like the sound of the neck PU! This is all about where the PU is placed and so it does show how important it is. The above generalism fits most basses I've tried. I guess angling the PU challenges the point that there is no logic per se in straight (perpendicular) PUs.

 

Davo

[Russkull]

Now I have played a ton of Jazzes in my time. I love the sound of the bridge PU - I don't like the sound of the neck PU!

 

I'm exactly the reverse - love the dark lows!

 

And since I've learned so much from this topic, may I highjack it and ask why I get a buzzing when I turn up only one pickup on my Jazz, but it goes away when I turn up both? I'm guessing it has to do with the single coils cancelling each other out somehow?

[rumpelstiltskin.]

correct.

 

robb.

[Russkull]

Thanks for the detailed answer.

[JBFLA]

Thanks for the detailed answer.

 

robb = he's nothing if not thorough...

 

...and there's that bit about knowing more than most of us.

 

My Lull M4 is the only bass I own with single coils. Outside of the studio or P&W groups, the hum from the bass is a non-issue.

In fact - I prefer the sound of the forward 'pup down about 20% - the "burpy bridge" sound. If I need to be quiet, I back off the volume and hope I remember to turn back up when it's time.

[b5pilot]

My basses although they look like single coil, they are either active (EMG's)(MEC's) or stacked (Fender noiseless.

I usually don't get hum.

 

Normally I have both pickups on. I occasionally favor a bit the bridge pickup until recently where I've been favoring the neck pickup especially with the jazz bass. It just sounds beefier.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

Russell -- the pickups are wired such that the are in reverse phase, so that the noise cancels when both are at equal level. in practical application, this is only at full volume on both. and since i'm, uh, thorough, it looks like this in real science.

 

the pickups are close enough together that radiated noise is detected in phase on both. however, they are wired out of phase from each other such that the noise electrically cancels when the signals are combined at equal level. this configuration also causes the cancellation of midrange that results in the iconic, characteristic tone of J basses.

 

B5 -- the thing that's special about active pickups is that they are low impedance, which means that even though they need to be amplified just to reach instrument level, they are far less susceptible to noise. high impedances, on the other hand, are much more susceptible to noise.

 

don't forget that you can also make side-by-side "single coil" humbuckers. i believe dimarzio does just that. nordstrand, apparently, designs both versions.

 

robb.

[Russkull]

Thanks Robb. I know I could just look it up myself but I figured your explaination would be more clear and to the point (not to mention all that science!).

[lug]

Longer wave lengths have a larger amplitude toward the middle of the string, so the closer you get to the 12th fret, the more of the fundemental's energy you get in the overall mix. As you move toward the bridge, the shorter wavelength harmonics start to even up with the fundemental's in amplitude. So, the closer you get to the bridge, the higher harmonic content and lesser fundemental content you get in your pickup output.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

the question i have, though, is what does it take to cancel out a lug .mp3 before it hits my ears?

 

robb.

[abemo]

Just out of curiosity, are certain pickups designed to be angled and others straight? Or are they all designed uniform and it just depends on how they're set on the bass?

[Michele C.]

How beautiful that G&L. I wonder why it took so long for someone to marry single coils and hum resistance like this.

On the other hand, you may enjoy these diagrams of vibrating strings on different harmonics

 

http://denebola.if.usp.br/FisMatI/oe.html

 

And see these harmonics add up dinamically in this gorgeous applet

 

http://denebola.if.usp.br/FisMatI/oe.html

 

try plucking at different places and see the harmonics rise.

 

Then, hear harmonics for yourself: try plucking your string with a plectrum over the 12th fret, then the 7th, the 5th, the 4th. Make the note last some seconds and repeat. You should clearly hear harmonics coming into play from the dullest sount (at 12th fret). Of course it is the same if you move plucking point towards the bridge, just move the same distance.

 

The theorem in acoustics says that plucking you cancel harmonics that would have a node where you pluck the string.

 

Finally, consider that moving a pickup is somewhat like moving plucking point, you change focus. Still, there is no spoon and no sweet spot, because every time you fret a string you move all harmonics accordingly. This is why people angle pickups, to equalize the sound of different strings forced to share the same length.

 

 

[lug]

the question i have, though, is what does it take to cancel out a lug .mp3 before it hits my ears?

 

robb.

 

It's unpossible to avoid the pain. Prayer is your best option.