Second tier choice...

[Aidan]

I've tried to like the Supernatural upgrade for the RD700GX. Really, really tried. But I've decided it isn't for me. And the more I play the CP5, the more it seems to pull clear of the Roland. So it looks like I will be selling the RD in the near future.

 

One of the reasons for this will be to help finance a new second tier board. At the moment, I only have the XK3 as a practical second board (don't want to lug two 88s!) which is great for some things but lacking for others - hence my current loan of John's Korg X50.

 

So I've decided I need a "Swiss Army knife" top board to be able to cover all (or at least most) possibilities.

 

One obvious choice would be to also sell the Motif XS rack and replace both with either an XS or XF board.

 

However, right now, Kurzweil's PC3 line is a real bargain - I can get a 361 for under a grand (pounds) from one of the big retailers at the moment - which would allow me to keep the Motif rack as well, and is probably a better bet for "emergency Hammond" than the Motif.

 

So, finally, a question - I can get a PC3 (the 76-note version) for only a slither more than the 361. Obviously, the greater range might prove handy for splits etc but given that the Kurz would probably be used mostly for organ and synth stuff, which keybed is the better candidate?

[DanS]

Wasn't your last Kurz possessed by the spirit of Dudley Moore or something?

[AnotherScott]

So, finally, a question - I can get a PC3 (the 76-note version) for only a slither more than the 361. Obviously, the greater range might prove handy for splits etc but given that the Kurz would probably be used mostly for organ and synth stuff, which keybed is the better candidate?

 

For organ playing, I'd prefer the feel of the PC361 keyboard.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I have not had a 361, but my understanding is that the keyboard is similar to the K2661 that I did have. Personally, I'd rather pay the small extra for a 76 key, and schlep around the extra weight.

To me, a secondary purpose of the second tier is to cover me if something goes wrong with the first tier instrument on a gig. Also, as a beta tester, there are some new sounds, including a couple of new a. pianos in OS 2 for the PC3, plus a better Hammond/Leslie emulation - piano would definitely play better on the 76 key.

I don't know if you use splits and key ranges for triggering riffs, that sort of thing, but the extra real estate was imprtant enough to me that I even got the 73 instead of 61 when I bought my Electro 3, and I'm glad to have the extra range.

 

[AnotherScott]

Personally, I'd rather pay the small extra for a 76 key, and schlep around the extra weight.

To me, a secondary purpose of the second tier is to cover me if something goes wrong with the first tier instrument

I support the idea of a second tier also functioning as backup for the first. But that said, it is very rare that it is needed that way, and if it ever happens, I can manage to get through a gig on 61 keys. To me, the one day in 5 years or whatever that I may be inconvenienced by the lack of those keys in that particular situation isn't worth the extra bulk and weight for all the other days. Then again, easy transport is a particular focus of mine. In fact, the reason I didn't keep the PC361 as much as I liked it was because I found it too big and bulky! I do realize, though, that it's not so much of a priority for everyone, and not for the OP if he has been happy with an RD700GX or a CP5 as his 88.

 

Also, as a beta tester, there are some new sounds, including a couple of new a. pianos in OS 2 for the PC3...piano would definitely play better on the 76 key.

I agree that the PC361 keyboard is poor for piano. But if he ends up loving some of the AP sounds in the Kurz, he can drive them as alternate sounds from his 88. The combination of an 88 and a PC361 gives him a "no compromise" action for either piano or organ, and the flexibility of the Kurz would allow him to drive any combination of its sounds from either action he prefers at any time.

 

the extra real estate was imprtant enough to me that I even got the 73 instead of 61 when I bought my Electro 3, and I'm glad to have the extra range.

I prefer 61 on an Electro, if its main purpose is organ. I like to be able to easily swipe up to the screaming high C, which is such a characteristic Hammond maneuver, and it's awkward when there are more keys above the C. And the big benefit of extra keys on the bottom, for me, would be for splits and left hand bass, neither of which the Electro supports (except for dual organ registrations). Even if you want to trigger some other sound source for left hand bass, the lack of the low E on the keyboard makes the board ill-suited. So on both top and bottom, I find the Electro's extra keys at least as annoying as they could be helpful, so I'd just stick with the 61... again, with the thought that, if I want to drive one of its piano sounds, I'd drive it from my 88 anyway. Which I would do regardless because I find the E3's action terrible for piano playing.

[RandyFF]

Having a PC3, either 61 or 76, would be great, esp. at that price. Are you willing to schleep 30-40 pounds? It's biggest drawback is the full weight and lack of expansion (except for their 1 slot). Personally, I find 61 notes annoying, and if there are times you're bringing one (relatively) light board to a rehearsal or party, having at least 76 keys is nice. 25kg/55 pounds for the CP-5 is gettin' up there.

 

The XF, as much as I hate to admit it, looks appealing because of 3d party sounds being available, but of course you're gonna pay top dollar- 2-3 times as much as the discounted Kurz.

 

For busking/2d keyboard/parties/etc., I've been looking a lot at the Roland Di and the Korg Ps60,super lightweight and some unique performance features, and the Kurz SP4-7, at 11kg/24 pounds and 76 notes, looks appealing as well.

[AnotherScott]

Personally, I find 61 notes annoying, and if there are times you're bringing one (relatively) light board to a rehearsal or party, having at least 76 keys is nice.

...

For busking/2d keyboard/parties/etc., I've been looking a lot at the Roland Di and the Korg Ps60,super lightweight and some unique performance features, and the Kurz SP4-7, at 11kg/24 pounds and 76 notes, looks appealing as well.

The PS60 looks nice for what it is, but I agree with you, if you're going to use it as your only board with any frequency, I'd really like to have more than 61 keys. So I'd be more inclined to look at that Kurzweil, or the Casio PX-3 (weighs about the same). Or in the Korg line, the M50-73, or its predecessor (sort of), the TR-76 (which has aftertouch). For super lightweight with speakers, the Yamaha NP-V80 is pretty versatile, if you can live without MIDI ports (USB only), though I think that, overall, its sounds are weaker than the other ones mentioned here.

[allan_evett]

Aidan: The PC3 is a solid choice, in that it's definitely a "Swiss Army Knife" type keyboard. Having the 76 keys is indeed great for backup if your first tier 'board goes out; plus, it's convenient for single keyboard, small gigs.(The pianos on-board have served me well in those sort of situations). Having KB3 mode for organ is a plus, too, in a second tier keyboard. Though not a dedicated clonewheel, it provides the strongest Hammond/Leslie emulation in a multi-purpose keyboard, IMO. (and that's based on OS 1.35...., the present system in my PC3. OS2 will be featuring some improvements in that area.). I have found the PC3 keybed well suited for organ playing. The key design and touch feel closer to the Hammond XK-2 I used ten years ago, vs. the 'diving board' style standard synth keybed; YMMV on that, though....

 

If you keep the XS rack, and drive it with a PC3, you'll be well covered sonically. If I had believed that Yamaha would break tradition - creating an XF rack with Flash RAM and full, front panel programmability - I might have held off on the XF7, and waited for the rack. I think that having the PC3 as a main controller, then having the sounds of both the PC3 and an XS/XF is a powerful combination.

[AnotherScott]

Having KB3 mode for organ is a plus, too, in a second tier keyboard. Though not a dedicated clonewheel, it provides the strongest Hammond/Leslie emulation in a multi-purpose keyboard, IMO. (and that's based on OS 1.35...., the present system in my PC3. OS2 will be featuring some improvements in that area.).

I'm not sure I agree that PC3's KB3 mode is the strongest Hammond/Leslie emulation in a multi-purpose keyboard. Nord Stage? Roland VR-760 and VR-700? Even the Electro 3 is a strong multi-purpose keyboard, though it's not multi-timbral like the others. But I am eager to see how KB3 improves in the new OS. And if nothing else, combining it with a Ventilator should work well, and easily using its assignable outs.

[Dana.]

Clearly, you, tonysounds and Dave Ferris need to start a support group for each other!

 

 

 

 

 

[Karl Sutton]

electro 3 on top?

[allan_evett]

Having KB3 mode for organ is a plus, too, in a second tier keyboard. Though not a dedicated clonewheel, it provides the strongest Hammond/Leslie emulation in a multi-purpose keyboard, IMO. (and that's based on OS 1.35...., the present system in my PC3. OS2 will be featuring some improvements in that area.).

I'm not sure I agree that PC3's KB3 mode is the strongest Hammond/Leslie emulation in a multi-purpose keyboard. Nord Stage? Roland VR-760 and VR-700? Even the Electro 3 is a strong multi-purpose keyboard, though it's not multi-timbral like the others. But I am eager to see how KB3 improves in the new OS. And if nothing else, combining it with a Ventilator should work well, and easily using its assignable outs.

 

Probably should've clarified that: Instead of multi-purpose keyboard, ROMpler is likely a better classification; though the analog synth section of the PC3 is modeled, as well as KB3. Despite the other sounds on board, I generally think of the Roland VR 700, and Nord gear(especially the Electro series) as electro-mechanical emulation instruments (Yes, the Stage does have a synth section, but it's basically a model of analog synthesis. It's piano section, thanks to the Nord Piano library, is improving). The VR-760 was a great blend of electro-mechanical, and ROMpler (two SRX slots), but that idea was, IMO, diminished a bit in the VR-700).

 

KB3 through the assignable outs sounds great with the Ventilator. I'm curious as to how much the rotary sim. model will be improved in OS 2. With all of the cabinet choices and tweakability, there is much potential there.

[allan_evett]

Clearly, you, tonysounds and Dave Ferris need to start a support group for each other!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Count me in as well. We'll be known as HTA: Horse Traders Anonymous.

[Aidan]

LOL I hear you, Dana! Though I do feel as though I'm finally getting towards something long-term. And I have actually had the RD for a couple of years, which is like forever with me...

[Ian Benhamou]

Clearly, you, tonysounds and Dave Ferris need to start a support group for each other!

 

For real!!!!!

 

I say you take the time to make what you already have work for you instead of being on the eternal holy grail quest.

 

Look, if you've followed my posts in the last 2 years you'd know that nobody's a bigger PC3 advocate than I am. And if you didn't already have what you have and I didn't know all about your horse-trading than I'd type up 1500 word post outlining how the PC3 is the board for you.

 

BUT, you already have a Motif XS rack which is an excellent Swiss Army knife module covering the entire gamut of keybaord sounds, and an XK-3c probably the best hardware clonewheel currently on the market.

 

The XK-3c provides excellent midi control capabilities, and the Motif is just one space. And this way, you get to keep your most excellent B3 sound.

 

The PC3's KB3 mode is good for what it is. It gets the job done in most situations, especially in a band mix. But take it from me: I've lugged my big and heavy rack to gigs just to have my organ sound, even if it was for just 1 song.

 

And don't get your hopes up for PC3's OS2 as far as KB3 goes. The improvements are minimal. If they hadn't told me I wouldn't have even noticed any difference. And using a Ventilator on it doesn't do much either for those who are curious. It does help, but you still don't get that smooth velvet B3 tone.

 

The PC3 is an amazing board. I won't do a gig without it. The sounds are spectacular, the FX are the best you'll find on any hardware synth, the midi control is completely flexible, and the customer support is unsurpassed.

 

But you have what you need already in your hands.

 

[humannoyed]

But you have what you need already in your hands.

 

Unbelievable history making statement from a KC member!!

 

...I agree btw

[allan_evett]

But you have what you need already in your hands.

 

Unbelievable history making statement from a KC member!!

 

...I agree btw

 

And I would agree, to a point. The positives: 1) The XK-3C is possibly the best clonewheel keyboard currently available; world class sound, and a rotary sim. that some feel rivals the Ventilator. Plus it has assignable MIDI controllers on the front panel. 2) The Motif XS Rack is a terrific 'bread and butter' sound source, and then some. The potential negative is that the OP wouldn't have a self contained, all purpose, second tier instrument. So to cover the 'bread and butter' sounds he'd always need to have a rack on the gig. Also, as I pointed out previously, an all purpose, 76 key ROMpler could be an excellent small gig, single instrument choice. But if that's not a concern, and having a small rack on 'two keyboard gigs' isn't a problem, then I think the XK-3C / XS Rack combo is an excellent solution.

[Discotheque]

Guys it's an XK-33 on the top tier, not an XK-3c. That said I'd agree with Ian, not sure why the search for the holy grail is such a big priority, Motif rack with the XK-3 seems like the most logical choice.

[AnotherScott]

At the moment, I only have the XK3 as a practical second board (don't want to lug two 88s!) which is great for some things but lacking for others - hence my current loan of John's Korg X50.

 

Relevant to what some other people have said here, it seems like there may be a missing piece of info... Why are you currently using your friend's X50 instead of using your XK3 with your Motif XS rack in the first place?

[Aidan]

Scott, the reason I borrowed John's X50 was for a tribute band audition and I really just wanted to take two pieces of gear along instead of a third - with the CP5's external input, I can get away without bringing a mixer along anyway.

 

However...

 

For once I have listened with my head instead of my heart (if that makes any sense) and I'm going with Ian's suggestion of the XK3 (and CP5) controlling the Motif XS rack. I've looked into the XK3's MIDI capabilities and they do indeed seem pretty good.

 

I will then revisit the DJ capsule idea and stick my Soundcraft mixer in that with the Motif rack. The thinking being...

 

1) Solo, I'm all set with the CP5 - no need for a mixer if I want to do piano/vocal.

 

2) In my friend's covers band, he prefers me to use mostly Hammond and piano, so the CP5 and XK3 between them cover that, again without needing to lug along a mixer.

 

3) For my own band gigs (and anything else) I need to take the mixer along to run the PA anyway, so I might as well have the Motif with me. Yeah, it's a bit more wiring but hey...

 

I'm still going to sell the RD (providing I can get a sensible price for it in the current climate) but instead may use the proceeds of that to fund either a lower manual for the Hammond or (if I'm feeling a bit more cautious) a Vent.

 

Thanks for the moment of sanity, all...

[ProfD]

Ian's post definitely makes a lot of sense. IMO, Aidan has the best of all worlds in his signature line.