Public library and piracy

[zephonic]

We have had a few discussions on this forum about piracy. I have made my own thoughts clear in a couple of other threads, but realize that this particular issue has not yet come up, perhaps because well-stocked public libraries are not as common in other countries as they are in the Netherlands.

 

Since I was a kid I have been borrowing records from the library to tape them or rip them at home. It is a common and accepted practice in the Netherlands. You pay like Euro 1.50 for a CD and get to keep it for three weeks.

 

Similarly, I have been borrowing sheet music and make photocopies of it; in fact, they have a copier in the library just for that purpose.

 

I think the idea of the Dutch government is that information should be made accessible to all people, for the greater good of mankind- or something. Perhaps that outweighs any misgivings some may have about intellectual property violations.

 

 

 

After all, the advent of the printed word led to a rapid spread of knowledge throughout Europe, and nowadays you see young musicians reaping the benefits of the ubiquity of information available on the internet.

 

Discuss.

 

[Tonysounds]

They don't expect you to copy or rip cds any more than they expect you to copy a book.

[sakari lindhen]

not that this has anything to do with the topic, but here in Sweden we can borrow cds and dvds from the library free of charge.

 

back on topic...copyright violation is not the same thing as dissemination of knowledge. The spread of printing strengthed copyright, it didnt weaken it.

 

 

[Cygnus64]

not that this has anything to do with the topic, but here in Sweden we can borrow cds and dvds from the library free of charge.

 

 

Same here in the US. One of the local libraries does better than Netflix (DVD rental company), according to an article in the paper.

 

I think the idea of the Dutch government is that information should be made accessible to all people, for the greater good of mankind- or something.

I would doubt that, but I don't know. There is a xerox machine in lots of libraries here, and as you probably know the US is not the most forward-thinking country. A lot of the material in a library might be in the public domain. There are lots of reasons to have a Xerox machine, and certain material can be copied for research and other reasons.

[Joe Muscara]

Wait, what good does photocopying a CD do?

[JMcS]

Wait, what good does photocopying a CD do?

 

You can enlarge the dots for higher fidelity.

[Cygnus64]

Wait, what good does photocopying a CD do?

In 2010, do you actually want to hear a CD? I just wanna look at the hot chicks on the cover.

[xmlguy]

If you make the copy for your own use, and do not distribute the copy to anyone else, particularly for money, then the copying seems to be a legally allowed exception under section 16b of the Dutch Copyright law:

 

http://www.ivir.nl/legislation/nl/copyrightact.html

 

In the USA we have a similar concept called the Fair Use Doctrine, which can allow the limited use of copyrighted materials for educational and other specific purposes.

 

 

[NoahZark]

In the absence of reasonable copyright protections, all those libraries would have lots of empty shelves.

 

 

[Tonysounds]

The Fair Use Doctrine does apply specifically to education, but is not a permit for duplication of works in their entirety. And like most of our copyright and trademark laws, they were written before the advent of digital technology which has changed the whole game.

[Cygnus64]

In the absence of reasonable copyright protections, all those libraries would have lots of empty shelves.

 

Here's some interesting copyright trivia: Night of the Living Dead was never copyrighted due to a bonehead mistake.

clonk

 

AA uses something called "The Big Book", almost every member has purchased one, that's millions of people. They forgot to renew the copyright.

clonkety

[sakari lindhen]

The Fair Use Doctrine does apply specifically to education, but is not a permit for duplication of works in their entirety. And like most of our copyright and trademark laws, they were written before the advent of digital technology which has changed the whole game.

 

It has made copying easier and less time consuming, but i dont see how that changes right and wrong...or?

 

 

[iLaw]

We've got some rights holders here on the forum, let's just ask them what they think:

 

"Hey guys, a bunch of us were at the library today and heard your CD. Saw your name on the liner; how cool is that? We know that guy! Anyway, we liked your CD so much that we want to own it. That way we can listen to it whenvever we want without the library bugging us to return it. But we don't want to buy it. We just want to take it home and copy it. That way we'll be able to save the money for stuff we can't just copy, like rent and food and gasoline and new shoes for baby Mary.

 

You're so talented you've got to be making tons of money already, and heck, the label probably keeps all the money anyway.

 

So, is that OK with you if we all just copy it?"

 

Larry.

[sakari lindhen]

Larry, I am new to the forum, and not very clever...so I am not sure if that quote you included was a joke, or did someone actually write that?

 

Because my belief in humanity's sheer self-centredness is such that i believe that it is quite possible for someone to have written that!

[iLaw]

I intended it as a Gedankenexperiment. Not an actual quotation, but informed by many years of listening to these arguments privately and professionally.

 

And welcome to the forum!

 

Larry.

 

[Bottom End]

Many books and CD's borrowed from the library have led me to purchase more books and CD's.

[richwhite9]

Many photocopy a section of a book for research purposes. Students, etc

 

It's also cheaper than purchasing the entire text. As a rule of thumb it's cheaper to purchase the entire text than to photocopy it.

 

Ripping a CD or DVD however......

 

Expect the Netflix model to be the new library model with on demand ebooks and CDs available for streaming. After a decade of eBooks piracy will be SOP as it is in Music and film.

[zephonic]

You're so talented you've got to be making tons of money already, and heck, the label probably keeps all the money anyway.

 

So, is that OK with you if we all just copy it?"

 

Larry.

 

 

Many books and CD's borrowed from the library have led me to purchase more books and CD's.

 

Same here.

 

[Tonysounds]

The Fair Use Doctrine does apply specifically to education, but is not a permit for duplication of works in their entirety. And like most of our copyright and trademark laws, they were written before the advent of digital technology which has changed the whole game.

 

It has made copying easier and less time consuming, but i dont see how that changes right and wrong...or?

 

 

Thanks for reading. (although I have no clue how the Fair Use Doctrine has made copying easier or less time consuming. )

 

In case you missed the point, IT DOESN'T change right from wrong. Portions of a publication are allowed for duplication and disbursement for education purposes. Copying books or cds is not allowed.

 

Is this any clearer?

[Tonysounds]

You're so talented you've got to be making tons of money already, and heck, the label probably keeps all the money anyway.

 

So, is that OK with you if we all just copy it?"

 

Larry.

 

 

 

 

That's the response of someone who obviously doesn't have product to sell. Way to see the other side Z.

 

You weren't really interested in the debate, were you?

[zephonic]

That's the response of someone who obviously doesn't have product to sell. Way to see the other side Z.

 

You weren't really interested in the debate, were you?

 

Hello Tony, funny you should say that. I make my living exclusively from composing, producing and performing music. Take a look at my website, if you like.

 

What about you?

 

I started this thread because I am interested in debate, not in tired old mockery like iLaw's, which was surely not a lot more constructive and insightful than my emoticon.

 

And have you never borrowed an album from a friend and taped it?

 

Have a good one.

 

[Morizzle]

The Fair Use Doctrine does apply specifically to education, but is not a permit for duplication of works in their entirety. And like most of our copyright and trademark laws, they were written before the advent of digital technology which has changed the whole game.

 

It has made copying easier and less time consuming, but i dont see how that changes right and wrong...or?

 

 

 

Thanks for reading. (although I have no clue how the Fair Use Doctrine has made copying easier or less time consuming. )

 

In case you missed the point, IT DOESN'T change right from wrong. Portions of a publication are allowed for duplication and disbursement for education purposes. Copying books or cds is not allowed.

 

Is this any clearer?

 

Hey Tony, I think Sakari's comment was aimed at the digital technology, not the Fair Use Doctrine

[sakari lindhen]

The Fair Use Doctrine does apply specifically to education, but is not a permit for duplication of works in their entirety. And like most of our copyright and trademark laws, they were written before the advent of digital technology which has changed the whole game.

 

It has made copying easier and less time consuming, but i dont see how that changes right and wrong...or?

 

 

 

Thanks for reading. (although I have no clue how the Fair Use Doctrine has made copying easier or less time consuming. )

 

In case you missed the point, IT DOESN'T change right from wrong. Portions of a publication are allowed for duplication and disbursement for education purposes. Copying books or cds is not allowed.

 

Is this any clearer?

 

Hey Tony, I think Sakari's comment was aimed at the digital technology, not the Fair Use Doctrine

 

Exactly. I was making the point that d.t. doesnt change right and wrong. Nothing about the FUD.

[xmlguy]

The Fair Use Doctrine does apply specifically to education, but is not a permit for duplication of works in their entirety. And like most of our copyright and trademark laws, they were written before the advent of digital technology which has changed the whole game.

 

Nobody said that the Fair Use Doctrine was a permit to duplicate entire works in entirety, without limitation. That's why I said it provides limited use for educational purposes. Libraries don't make copies: they still buy or otherwise license the works they loan out, which does support the copyright holders. Of course, copyright holders would rather that everyone be required to buy a separate copy to use their work, but society has decided that sharing works through libraries serves a greater public interest than their individual interest.

 

As far as what people can do with that material once it's in their possession, there is a big gap between what is legally permissable and what is legally enforceable. Generally, no, it's not legally allowed to copy entire works for your own use. But show me the cases of anyone being prosecuted for doing so for their own private collection, which is not distributed to others or sold. If anything, technology has only increased the gap between the law and what's allowed in reality.

 

This is not to say that I agree with those who copy stuff from libraries, and I don't do that myself, but I know that if I did I could get away with it with little concern about being raided by the copyright police.

 

The OP was specifically referring to Dutch copyright law, which apparently does allow the limited copying of complete works for personal use, but it doesn't seem to specifically refer to making copies of works obtained from libraries. It probably isn't legally allowed, but I'd expect that the Dutch are rather permissive by not enforcing the law by raiding such agregious criminals and hauling them off to prison for it. Once somebody starts distributing or selling it, then the law becomes much more of a priority to enforce and to limit wide scale abuse, where the numbers add up to be more significant and the means to enforce the law are much easier without the need to obtain search warrants and probable cause.

[Joe Muscara]

I used to copy (make tapes, as it was back then) CDs from friends and sometimes even libraries.

 

Then I grew up.

[marino]

Hey, what happened - my post has disappeared?!? :idk

[xmlguy]

I end up paying multiple times for the same track. There are tracks that I've bought on singles, LP, 8-track, Cassette, CD, MP3, iTunes and some other formats. (yes, that dates me)

 

I think the artists should reimburse me for the license costs of buying the exact same track on different media. They weren't even different performances or edited versions.

[iLaw]

Zephonic,

 

Hey, sorry you didn't like my parable. Good thing I don't make my living writing satire.

 

But if I did make my living writing satire, at least in the society that I currently live in, I would want people who like it well enough to want to own it to be willing to pay me a little something for it. That way I could keep writing more satire for them (and me!) and simultaneously be able to pay for my room and board.

 

If I read your initial post correctly, your thesis is that society in general would be better off if my satire (and everyone else's, don't worry Dave Barry and Joel Stein, I've got your back!), and intellectual property in general, were made freely available to society for the greater public good.

 

Fine so far, but by what alternative means do you propose that Dave, Joel, and I put food on the table and shoes on our daughters' feet? This is not a snarky question, and I have a number of ideas, some of which have actual historical precedents that we could discuss.

 

But this is your debate, so I'll ask you. How do you think society can best support and encourage the most creative minds in society, to produce the most creative works, for the greater good of society?

 

Larry.

 

[Clifton]

Ohh boy. I ain't touching this with a ten foot pole

[Kenny0]

I keep a running list of people and companies that I intend to reimburse for their copyrighted material. I feel that I'm in an area of my life where I am on the cusp of doing great things. I read books in pdf form to learn so that I can improve my productive capacity. When I have an (relative) abundance of money, I will pay these folks back somehow, if I was able to gain from their work. I can't afford to just throw money at every source of information if I don't yet know or understand how they will affect my life, or if I don't know if I want to pursue a particular direction. Time is very important to all of us, and there are SO MANY ideas to pursue! If we were to limit our sources of information based upon our wealth, we would also be limiting our opportunities to grow in the directions that we choose to develop. But I am fair, and I believe that people deserve to be rewarded for hard work. Similarly, if there was no way to "steal" (or borrow), I certainly would not be spending the money that I don't have, right?

 

I'm not talking about fiction works btw. Things that are purely for entertainment value lead to the owner being compensated right away because in the realm of information, entertainment may be classified as providing an immediate return. You can be burned by bad work though, which is why I am always careful to read reviews of works before I buy anything for entertainment. On the other hand, a large part of being entertained has to do with the company you keep and not the source of the entertainment, so I feel it's OK to err on the side of giving the artist the benefit of the doubt (talking about going out to movies/shows/etc with friends here)

 

I'm sure that not everyone will agree with my approach, since how do you keep yourself honest.. But dishonest people are going to steal anyway, if they have the ability to do so. By definition you can trust the honest person (right?).

 

On the other hand, you still want a system that ensures that the honest people will remember to reward the producers of work. If I didn't keep a list and make sure it is backed up in multiple places, it could be easy for me to forget to show my gratitude towards these people. Therefore I think that is where the solution lies. The main point I want to get across is that there is a lot of information out there, but there isn't an easy way to determine what directions you want to take until you've tried some of it. I am for rewarding hard workers and also for providing everyone as much opportunity as possible to grow intellectually.