open question about drummer speed

[Ross Brown]

If a song is too fast (really too fast), is it always the drummers fault?

 

I have not found a good way to slow a fast song down midstream yet.... We had some songs on Friday night that made us sound ridiculous because they were too fast.

[Skinny]

We just replaced our drummer because of his tempo issues, but it wasn't always his fault. Usually, but not always.

 

Once in a while, I may slightly rush my vocals if I'm singing lead.

 

Our guitarist sometimes rushes when he is soloing.

 

Now that we have a very steady drummer, he just keeps us at the tempo we need to be. Previous drummer would have rushed along with us, and EVERY song ended up too fast.

 

With our previous drummer, I would sometimes attempt to keep the tempo back when I felt him speeding up. Unfortunately, it never worked. He just kept speeding up. Plus, me dragging the bass while he rushed along sounded worse than us all playing too fast together.

 

Can you slow a song back down? Maybe, maybe not. Does attempting to slow back down sound worse than just playing it too fast? I think it might.

 

In our case, it was usually the drummer's fault. We replaced him. Our new drummer plays solid and tight. No more (noticeable) rushing.

 

 

[Bottom End]

No, it can also be the guitarist's fault, but if the drummer starts off fast, there's not much you can do.

 

There are a few songs where during rehearsal I yell, "This song is a slooooow blues!" and start playing in an effort to imprint the tempo in the drummer's and guitarists' brains during performance.

 

I have gone to playing only whole notes instead of walking basslines , or sixteenths on an open E to get my point across, too.

[TimR]

This is my pet hate subject.

 

First the term 'rushing' to me means that certain passages (usually hard ones but not always) speed up.

 

Playing fast is usually done by whoever counts the song in.

 

If the song is too fast the singer can't get the words out and sometimes you can lose the groove.

 

Often a bad or inexperienced drummer will (unintentionally?)try to cover his lack of groove by deliberately playing fast to 'make the song sound better'.

 

Usually it sounds worse.

 

Blame the person who brings the song in if the drummer is solid he will stick to that time.

[jeremy c]

Who is counting off the song?

 

I've worked with plenty of leaders who count off a song at a tempo, the drummer and I play exactly at the tempo and then the leader turns around and says "it's too fast" or "it's too slow".

 

Depending on how politely they say it, we may switch to a different tempo or maybe not.

[Ross Brown]

Drummer counts them off.

 

I agree that trying to slow them down by slowing bass line just makes it worse...

[jcadmus]

If a song is too fast (really too fast), is it always the drummers fault?

 

 

Yes.

 

Next question.

[Eric VB]

Drummer counts them off.

Have him purchase a gizmo that he can use to establish the correct tempo. I worked with a drummer who used one of these in the studio and it was nice.

 

On stage you probably don't have the luxury of waiting for the drummer to dial in the proper tempo before every song.

 

If you can get a better drummer, dump this guy.

 

If not, work with what you've got. Make it easier on him by arranging a few songs together with similar tempo, or turn them into medleys. (In between these chunks you can pause long enough for him to check his gizmo.) Have other band members start songs instead of always having the drummer count them off. (Shouldn't you be doing this anyway?)

 

He should be able to get better if he works on it. Some guys need to pause just long enough to hear the chorus in their heads; other guys can fluidly switch gears without a break in the action.

[jeremy c]

Count the songs off yourself...if they still end up too fast, you have a problem.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Letter off instead of counting off. Trust me...there's nothing like a good "A...B...C...D" to slow any drummer down. Really.

 

Peace.

--s-uu

 

[Brocko777]

Thats what those things are for on the side of our heads.

Use 'em!!

If there has to be a tempo change, both parties (drummer/bassist) should be locked in via sight or/and hearing (hey thats what those things are for) and make the correction together and GRADUALLY.

I will get into my own zone at times BUT I am always listening to everyone to know what is happening... a missed turn around, shortened verse, dropped drum stick.

 

Brocko

 

[jlrush]

Tempo problems are usually caused by the person counting off the song. It's best to let the singer count the song out (if they can count) because they know how hard it is to sing a song that's too fast or slow.

Taking a few extra seconds to get the right tempo is worth having a little more dead air space between songs.

[BenLoy]

Tempo problems are the whole band's responsibility.

[Graham56]

Our previous drummer had the endearing characteristic of counting in at a completely different tempo to the one he would begin playing.

 

Once we got him out of that habit he often started the songs too fast.

 

We're a covers band playing songs for drunk people to dance to, and we were coming in at uncomfortable tempos for this.

 

I eventually got the drummer to imagine himself dancing before beginning the count. This worked quite well. You could see him moving his shoulders from side to side as if he were dancing on his seat, then he would count in at the same (and much better) tempo.

 

Cheers

 

Graham

[5 string Mike]

Tempo problems are the whole band's responsibility.

 

I tend to agree-

 

Although tempo resides with the drummer, the rest of the band can help find the root of the issue.

 

Can the drummer hear the bass and the rest of the band correctly?

 

What changed? Ross, is this a new drummer?

 

Maybe the guys is used to playing ahead of the beat for whatever reason- and this situation he really doesn't need to play ahead of the beat but is locked into that habit, and especially if you guys are used to a drummer that's on or a bit behind the beat, he's trying to catch the band and the band tries to catch him and this turns into one of those runaway situations.

[Ross Brown]

Not a new drummer. He adds a lot and most folks think he is a good drummer. This problem of tempo comes and goes. We used to think it was related to his love life but that seems not to be it. Sometimes when a cute girl was dancing in a sexy manner he would speed up.

 

I don't know if he is hearing something I am doing. We have worked on this in practice and it helps but eventually returns. I am not looking to dump him. He is a valuable member. I am just trying to be a good musician and responsible band member and work on the problem. I did notice that we had great tempo on the gig where we had to play extra quiet. Seemed like volume translates to speed. But we are usually loud and only sometimes too fast.

 

 

 

 

[jcadmus]

Two words: stun gun.

 

Good day.

[Davo-London]

Listen as an intermediate drummer I can say this.

 

It's hard being a drummer and it's a lot of responsibility. More than the bassist IMHO.

 

So, an imperfect drummer will:

 

- slow down a really fast tempo

- speed up a really slow tempo

- rush fills

 

If a drummer is serious about his skill level then these problems should diminish once they are moderately competent.

 

If not - find another drummer. Anyone who adds a bar of fill every 4th bar should be shown the door and have their sticks burned.

 

If a drummer is able to groove and play fluidly with a bunch of different styles then they are a keeper.

 

Drummers that can only play one dynamic (loud obviously) should be shown the door.

 

SO ... coming back to tempo. Sometimes I realise a song feels like it's dragging (slow) but you are powerless to change it. Obviously you need to fit in with your band mates. If they slow the tempo are you supposed to follow or lead? This is a constant dilemma frankly and I'm not sure there's a simple answer.

 

At drum camp recently, my tutor asked us to play along to a Harry Connick Jr song. The song was dead slow and had several drum tacet sections. Absolutely no-one got this song riight even though we knew we had to count like crazy. Coming into the last phrase the singer speeds up his tempo. Every drummer followed the singer rather than the inaudible click.

 

It's not black and white. That's what I'm saying dudes ...

 

Davo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jcadmus]

You're black and white.

 

[b5pilot]

I eventually got the drummer to imagine himself dancing before beginning the count. This worked quite well. You could see him moving his shoulders from side to side as if he were dancing on his seat, then he would count in at the same (and much better) tempo.

Graham

 

Good suggestion unless the guy can't dance then look out!

[jcadmus]

 

Good suggestion unless the guy can't dance then look out!

 

You mean, like this?

[video:youtube]

[jeremy c]

I've always found that singing a few lines in my head before counting off a song works very well.

[Pernax]

I've always found that snorting a few lines in my nose before counting off a song does not work very well.

 

-P

[The Bear Jew]

I've always found that snorting a few lines in my nose before counting off a song does not work very well.

 

-P

 

Depends on what band you're in...

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZXk3g4DimiI/S0ucIobOUvI/AAAAAAAABWc/M9sI9TTFCQ8/s640/lemmy.jpg

[Ross Brown]

Our guitarist suggested drugging him....

[DJR_Bos]

Tempo problems are the whole band's responsibility.

 

This X10. If the drummer, or who ever, isn't counting in the way you like the someone else needs to do it. Man up, take control.

 

And JC's idea about singing a few line before deciding that tempo is pretty spot on.

 

But if some one is rushing or otherwise trashing the time that's a whole 'nother thing.....

 

[Ross Brown]

Tempo problems are the whole band's responsibility.

 

Man up, take control.

 

 

 

Yes, that is what I am doing.... my questions here to this esteemed body of knowlegable musicians represents one aspect of my considered approach to solving this problem. The phrase "man up" is offensive to me so I'll assume you meant it in a spirit different than I took it.

[picker]

Tempo problems are the whole band's responsibility.

 

To some degree yes. BUT, I have found that I can push the drummer or pull him back quite a bit, especially on repetitive lines, by what I play as well as how I play it.

 

Now, the caveat on this is that the better the drummer, the better it works. Some drummers absolutely have no idea what's going on around them. They are too busy playing for themselves to notice they are playing faster than they did a few seconds earlier. But when a simple tune that started at a reasonable tempo accelerates to the point that it's about to open up a wormhole and suck the band into hyper space, it IS probably more than just the drummer's fault.

[EddiePlaysBass]

But when a simple tune that started at a reasonable tempo accelerates to the point that it's about to open up a wormhole and suck the band into hyper space, it IS probably more than just the drummer's fault.

 

Depends on what band you're in ...

 

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/30651633/Hawkwind++74.png

 

Simon House / Dave Brock / Lemmy / Nik Turner / Simon King.

[Wally Malone]

Amen!

 

Wally

 

Tempo problems are the whole band's responsibility.