MacMini server

[zephonic]

Am I going crazy waiting for a new MacPro, or is the new Mac Mini server a really attractive proposition for musos?

 

Not just for home recordists, but small enough to take to a gig, too.

 

 

[Mark Schmieder]

We're in the exact same boat -- I have too many deadline-intense projects that are being slowed down by my ancient G4 iMac's challenges as well as the unavailability of paid-for software as it won't load and/or won't run on my PPC.

 

I've been too busy for much internet activity these past couple of months, but was surprised today when a quick dip at Apple's website showed the silent release of new Mac Mini's.

 

The new specs are better bang-for-buck than before, as well as addressing some key issues with older Mac Minis.

 

Internal power supply is a huge boon -- especially for occasional on-location session work and ease/speed of setting up. Quieter and cooler performance is also a big deal when it comes to the kind of beating-on that a music computer is subject to in real-world use.

 

I think this update also makes the Mini Server, with two internal 7200 rpm drives vs. one 5400 rpm drive, a better bet than a MacBook Pro with its potential eSATA connection.

 

In fact, even though iMacs are still the best bang-for-buck of any Mac, the new Mac Minis (especially the server model) do move it closer to being the revival of the Cube that we all dream about. The server model, of course, is close to being the mid-range MacPro that Apple will probably never release but that most of us would prefer given the choice.

[Bobadohshe]

It's going to silently update in the next month or two, I'm telling you!

 

sincerely,

 

The past 6 months of broken hopes

[zephonic]

The new Mac Minis (especially the server model) do move it closer to being the revival of the Cube that we all dream about.

 

Sheeeeeeet, people dream about THAT?

 

I think this update also makes the Mini Server, with two internal 7200 rpm drives vs. one 5400 rpm drive, a better bet than a MacBook Pro with its potential eSATA connection.

 

I don't think any Mac comes with eSATA. At least, I could not find any on their site.

 

 

[WheelHead]

 

I think this update also makes the Mini Server, with two internal 7200 rpm drives vs. one 5400 rpm drive, a better bet than a MacBook Pro with its potential eSATA connection.

 

Nothing and no hard drive will speed up a Macbook Pro, even close, like the recent vintage SSDs. I have an old 2.16Ghz Macbook Pro running Garritan Steinway Pro 24-bit samples at 24 bit with 128 polyphony and records to itself without a glitch (also has no trouble at 96khz but does nothing as the samples are recorded at 41.1) using a Vertex 2 SSD. Boots in 12 seconds. Ridiculous speed bump up for even old Macbook Pros. I bought another one for my other Macbook Pro only that was a Mushkin SSD. No issue. Never go back and enjoying the hell out of the G Pro.

 

W

[AnotherScott]

I think this update also makes the Mini Server, with two internal 7200 rpm drives vs. one 5400 rpm drive, a better bet than a MacBook Pro with its potential eSATA connection.

 

I don't think any Mac comes with eSATA. At least, I could not find any on their site.

 

 

You can add an eSATA drive to a Macbook Pro via its Expresscard slot

[Mark Schmieder]

Cool, so SSD's really make that big of a difference? I think one can add an SSD to a Mac Mini, and the new model has easier access. I'll look and see what the teardown sites say in terms of the swap, and maybe build my own two-drive Mini from the base model vs. getting the Server model.

[WheelHead]

Cool, so SSD's really make that big of a difference? I think one can add an SSD to a Mac Mini, and the new model has easier access. I'll look and see what the teardown sites say in terms of the swap, and maybe build my own two-drive Mini from the base model vs. getting the Server model.

 

Yes, absolutely. Do yourself a favor and disregard remarks about hard drives non SSD. My 2.4 Macbook Pro was choking at times with a sampled piano and ran at 64 polyphony running a 7200RPM (aftermarket, tired internal and external), with an SSD. I am running a slower, older Macbook Pro (2.16) with the same software at 128 polyphony even ran it at 96khz (not necessary as the samples in this case are 41.1) AND using the same MBP to record to itself from the same software at the same time. Boots in 12 seconds. I have counted it several times. In that MBP I am using a Vertex 2 SSD (not Vertex 1, obviously) with the Sandforce controller.

 

OCZ has the Sandforce controller vender software/firmware the others use generic controller software (for the Sandforce that *are* Sandforce). I have another SSD with the generic controller software/firmware that seems a tad slower than the vender-provided that OCZ has the license to.

 

Until I put another SSD in the faster MBP the slower, older (originally) was a *much* faster computer than the higher bandwidth CPU MBP with a higher side-bus, not to mention, that the older MBP cannot hold the same memory. In my case, I have only 2G memory in the older MBP and 4G in the faster. It still blew away the 'faster' MBP until I put an SSD in that too. With the SSD the huge samples of this piano library feel and run like a modeled piano. I have been playing it for weeks without any issues or artifacts/pops/clicks.

 

W

[Mark Schmieder]

I'm confused -- you're loading your sample libraries on your system drive? I would never do that.

 

So, is SSD advantagelous for APPLICATIONS, or just for data such as sample libraries and audio projects?

 

The only thing I load on my main system drive are applications, and files that have to reside on the system drive for technical reasons.

 

With a larger system drive (my G4 only has a 40 GB internal drive), I MIGHT consider loading photos (as Adobe products are so slow), and maybe even iTunes -- both of which currently sit on external drives via Firewire.

 

I was thinking of putting some of my streaming sample libraries on the SECOND hard drive of the Mini Server, which of course would NOT be an SSD.

[AnotherScott]

One big difference between OS X and the "classic" Mac OS--and one of the things that makes it slower--is that it is constantly going out to disk for all sorts of things, and the disk is the slowest link in the chain. So faster storage will make a huge difference, as seen here. But also, when you're working with sample sets that are, themselves, bigger than the amount of RAM installed in the machine, you're opening the door to some pretty heavy duty swapping.

[WheelHead]

I'm confused -- you're loading your sample libraries on your system drive? I would never do that.

 

So, is SSD advantagelous for APPLICATIONS, or just for data such as sample libraries and audio projects?

 

The only thing I load on my main system drive are applications, and files that have to reside on the system drive for technical reasons.

 

With a larger system drive (my G4 only has a 40 GB internal drive), I MIGHT consider loading photos (as Adobe products are so slow), and maybe even iTunes -- both of which currently sit on external drives via Firewire.

 

I was thinking of putting some of my streaming sample libraries on the SECOND hard drive of the Mini Server, which of course would NOT be an SSD.

 

To each is own what we do. We all do different things. System drive works perfectly with the SSD. I have no issues. I have a perfect setup playing without error/artifacts/clipping/ for weeks. If you put samples on a second hard drive that is not an SSD it will definitely not work as well. Like I said before, not only does it work perfectly but will record to itself (Macbook Pro) and make perfect asf audio files while it is playing the samples if you use the record feature of the standalone Garriton Steinway Pro in 24 bit that creates asf file for immediate non processed hearing. It is not even close to any error just playing and not recording. Best upgrade I ever did to a computer. Works just as well with Ivory. Why use an external when you don't need it or an Optibay drive with samples? (hard drive case that replaces superdrive dvd writer in MBP for 2 hard drives in a laptop) Though with an Optibay you could run a second hard drive in a Macbook Pro on a gig and if there was a hard drive failure you could boot from that unless it was a major logicboard failure.

 

As far as applications: they come up instantly. Processing speed for software for the samples (like an audio engine) is increased however the developer of the GSP commented that he thought the greatest benefit of the SSD is the drastically increased polyphony and not so much the latency. I do not quite understand that as my latency is much better BUT not as ridiculously better as the polyphony and bandwidth capability including recording capability. Perhaps that is what he meant.

[Mark Schmieder]

Well, maybe SSD is a game-changer in terms of the old standard of never sharing data and applications on the same drive. I'll have to see what the largest capacity SSD costs, and how expensive it is, in terms of ones that are compatible with the Mini.

[WheelHead]

Well, maybe SSD is a game-changer in terms of the old standard of never sharing data and applications on the same drive. I'll have to see what the largest capacity SSD costs, and how expensive it is, in terms of ones that are compatible with the Mini.

 

What you said is obviously quite accurate about not using system files in the sample hard drive or hard drive that streams samples and this has been the 'rule of thumb'. The SSD, in my view, changes that and has for me. I would do that also with a spinning/mechanical drive. In fact, that is how I ran Ivory and the Garritan Steinway Pro (only in 16 bit 64 poly instead of 24 bit 128 poly now) with an external 7200 using a hard drive enclosure (Icy Dock) Firewire 800. Nice lean laptop now doing it all with no hook-ups. It runs hilariously well and in the old laptop it only has 2G of ram for heavy samples. The 2.16 really rocks with the Vertex 2. I only have a 50 Gig in there. My other newer MBP has a 120 Mushkin SSD and tons of apps including Logic. My backup.

 

W

[Joe Muscara]

We had a presentation at our Mac user group meeting yesterday from our friend, the locally based Apple SE (yes, I'm such a geek I still go to our MUG meetings). One of the things he talked about was SSD, and I learned a lot, like that Apple hasn't implemented TRIM yet, what some of the issues are with SSD compared to HD, and performance. He talked about how installing an SSD in his old MacBook made it *much* faster.

 

Another thing he mentioned, which makes me want to replace all my HDs with SSD right now, is that the failure mode of SSD makes them simply "read only." In other words, you can still get all your data off of it. Compare that to the horrid failure modes of HDs and it almost makes the change worth the extra price. Unfortunately SSD prices are still a bit out of my budget, but I'm going to keep an eye on them, especially for my older machines.

 

Info on TRIM - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIM_(SSD_command)

 

At one point, I had Ivory running on the internal hard drive of my CoreDuo MacBook and it ran fine with no configuration changes. However, I wasn't doing anything intense with playing Ivory, nor was I doing else that was demanding of the system. I was simply playing Ivory in standalone mode, or perhaps doing some recording in GarageBand. I think the hard drive in that MacBook is a 5400, but it might be a 7200, and the system is not nearly as fast as Macs are now.

[AnotherScott]

I'm confused -- you're loading your sample libraries on your system drive? I would never do that.

 

I think it's a matter of understanding *why* you would never do that... that trying to read and write everything using the same drive leads to bottlenecks that slow things down (possibly due, at least in part, to all the extra back and forth head motion that would require). It sounds like the SSD is so much faster (and headless), it's just not an issue.

 

I think the analogy would be along the lines of trying to take 2 gallons of water out of a high pressure hose. If your bottles have narrow tops with funnels, it will be faster if you set up two bottles and move the hose back and forth between them as the funnels fill up, and there still may be times you have to wait for both funnels to empty. But if you have a bigger bottle, with the opening bigger than the hose, there's no longer any advantage to using a second bottle.

[AnotherScott]

One of the things he talked about was SSD, and I learned a lot, like that Apple hasn't implemented TRIM yet, what some of the issues are with SSD compared to HD, and performance.

 

What are some of the issues? Specifically, apart from cost, is there any downside whatsoever to SSD compared to a hard drive?

 

Also, does anyone know, is SSD still much faster than hard drive if the SSD is hooked up externally though FireWire 800? How does the speed compare to connecting it internally? What about USB 2?

[Joe Muscara]

If you read that link I provided, you'll see some of what I was talking about. Rewrites on SSD can be tricky and degrade performance over time if the OS doesn't do it right. I think this was also discussed in another thread here, but I don't recall which one.

 

The other potential issue is that there is a limited number of writes you can hit. I don't know how the number compares, but it's something he has actually seen. You get a warning telling you that your SSD is getting close to it's EOL. Fortunately, it's still readable as I said above.

[WheelHead]

If you read that link I provided, you'll see some of what I was talking about. Rewrites on SSD can be tricky and degrade performance over time if the OS doesn't do it right. I think this was also discussed in another thread here, but I don't recall which one.

 

The other potential issue is that there is a limited number of writes you can hit. I don't know how the number compares, but it's something he has actually seen. You get a warning telling you that your SSD is getting close to it's EOL. Fortunately, it's still readable as I said above.

 

Depend what SSD. The cheapest ones still have 10,000 writes that is a lot. The SLCs can have up to a million writes.

All flash memory is not created equal. There are 2 main types, SLC and MLC.

 

SLC and MLC (single and multi level cells) SLC stores one bit per cell, MLC doubles it and is much cheaper to manufacture. As such we see MLC NAND Flash memory used for example in your digital camera. If we break it down:

 

"SLC is faster, and has around 100,000 up-to 1 million write cycles

MLC is somewhat slower but cheaper, unfortunately also less reliable (sometimes as few as 10,000 write cycles)."

 

Vertex 2s are SLC up to a million writes. This vintage, including other manufacturers of this speed, is also rated in the millions of hours of use. It/they is also warranted for premature failure.

 

About Trim: Only a matter of time that Apple introduces Trim. In the meantime there are ways around it and there are several articles about this to do this manually that involves a backup, however, it is common to read that after several months in a MAC it still is no problem. I have backups on an external so I could do it manually with no problem. I was very familiar with the Trim issue before I bought SSDs.

 

W

[Joe Muscara]

Oh sure, he did say, "we [Apple] will be adding TRIM support, it's coming," though he wasn't more specific than that. As he often reminds us, he is in sales and they tell those guys last because they blab.

 

You're not telling me anything I don't know about the cycles. It's relatively new technology and those numbers will improve.

[Mark Schmieder]

So, given that the SSD is headless (which I didn't know, as I've barely looked into SSD's yet), simultaneous read/write is not a problem and thus it's OK to share programs with data.

 

Given the current limitations on rewrites, and the fact that most SSD drives will be smaller in capacity than most hard drives, it is probably better to share the SSD system drive (via two partitions) with streamed sample libraries than with more frequently changing content such as audio projects, iTunes libraries, and PhotoShop libraries.

[WheelHead]

So, given that the SSD is headless (which I didn't know, as I've barely looked into SSD's yet), simultaneous read/write is not a problem and thus it's OK to share programs with data.

 

Given the current limitations on rewrites, and the fact that most SSD drives will be smaller in capacity than most hard drives, it is probably better to share the SSD system drive (via two partitions) with streamed sample libraries than with more frequently changing content such as audio projects, iTunes libraries, and PhotoShop libraries.

 

Yeap. You never know when you get over that 1 million-write milestone. Some are VERY busy writing to a drive.

 

Pays to be safe. I would rather see 3 to 5 million writes, otherwise I'll take what, WITH a bit of disappointment, I have since I don't do a lot of writes. Certainly not over a million.

 

(now if I could only get a dollar for every write in that case LOL!!)

 

 

[AnotherScott]

Given the current limitations on rewrites, and the fact that most SSD drives will be smaller in capacity than most hard drives, it is probably better to share the SSD system drive (via two partitions) with streamed sample libraries than with more frequently changing content such as audio projects, iTunes libraries, and PhotoShop libraries.

 

This might be an argument against making an SSD the boot volume, as the OS is constantly writing to the boot volume... temp files, VM swap files, etc.

[Mark Schmieder]

Good point. I think with the new Mini Server though, it is easier to swap the main/system drive than the additional drive that replaces the SuperDrive bay -- unless one can assign which one is the main drive when setting up the system (not sure if it's hard-wired based on which bay the drive is in).

[AnotherScott]

Good point. I think with the new Mini Server though, it is easier to swap the main/system drive than the additional drive that replaces the SuperDrive bay -- unless one can assign which one is the main drive when setting up the system (not sure if it's hard-wired based on which bay the drive is in).

 

Macs have always let you change the boot drive to any attached drive (on a bootable bus)--including CD/DVD in the superdrive--so I would expect that to be no problem.

[Morizzle]

Does anyone know what the average amount of writes per day is? Also, if I record 2 GB of audio in a program that does an autosave every five minutes, I should have quite a lot of "writes", right? Or what does qualify as a "write"?

[WheelHead]

Does anyone know what the average amount of writes per day is? Also, if I record 2 GB of audio in a program that does an autosave every five minutes, I should have quite a lot of "writes", right? Or what does qualify as a "write"?

 

Everyone may have different view on this. Failure is much more of a concern than the number of writes. In my view it is more a concern even to worry about sudden price reduction than number of writes. If a drive is relegated non usable in the warranty period, depending what vender, they will change it.

 

Now if a person has saved for a year to buy one SSD and wants it to last several years while he saves for another - THEN there is an issue for overuse.

 

I don't care about perceived number of writes. If I get a couple of years or so (in warranty period) of use I will just buy another one later.

 

Same with the laptop battery, imho: Some optimize their use of their battery. Down charge - up-charge and always reading their laptop battery condition with the charge amounts. I don't care. I enjoy the computer I will buy another battery when needed perhaps a little faster than most.

 

Likewise with the SSD: Probably die from something else than write limitations. Sudden failure, like I said, is more a concern that I have seen reported on a few manufacturers. Case like that, send it back and get another one if one is so unfortunate if under warranty period.

 

By the way, I ordered Pianoteq Play after trying the demo. With the SSD it will easily run at 192khz however the benefit may be dubious, though, the benefit is definitely no benefit with a sampled piano sampled at 41.1 like the GS. With a model the benefit may be pronouncable though slight. Like 96khz.-up (using Fireface 800 firewire though using the 400 firewire interface)

 

W