robson Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 hi guys, been lurking in here for some time and finally got guts to post something. I've learnt (and still learning) jazz on my own after studding classic music in my youth. Below is an ad hoc (not prepared) improvisation on take5. I've heard on this forum some good jazz players I thought why not to get an advise from them. I know I lost drive for a moment but recovered. Also it's hard to judge myself on chords used in right hand, since mostly I don't "think" (do you?) during improvisation (only ears matter) so I wonder how incorrect were my ear choices from theoretical/harmony point of view. I appreciate any tips and epithets like "you suck" etc. Other thing is that my problem is that I have to be in mood to improvise, of course I can play some memorized phrases but for me it's not really improvisation. Can you guys get easily into the "mood"? http://www.4shared.com/get/125214083/7d9958d7/take5.html thanks, robson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Other thing is that my problem is that I have to be in mood to improvise, of course I can play some memorized phrases but for me it's not really improvisation. Can you guys get easily into the "mood"? It might be more constructive if you didn't always wait to be in the mood to improvise. One can practice improvising the same way that someone can practice anything. Hell, if I waited to get in the mood I'd never get anything accomplished. I set aside three hours a day for practicing and I do that whether I'm ... in the mood ... or not. (Those three hours can sometimes take an entire day to get through.) If a particular harmonic progression is difficult for you to improvise over, you now know what you should work on. It's that simple - and you now know what you need to work on, right? The best players approach improvising in a somewhat structured manner during their practice time and doing so will help your playing improve in a faster pace. Make your practice time more structured in respect to improvising and I bet you'll see and hear an improvement. As far as specific comments re your playing, listen again to yourself in a few days and tell us what you think might need to be improved. Also it wouldn't hurt to study with someone who can offer one on one practical advice. ... this added later ... SK pointed out in another thread that Take Five might not be such a good choice of a tune to work on if you're beginning. There's a lot of things to think of without having to concentrate on the meter. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 What Dave said. A little added advice: You need to develop your melodic sense. (As Dave has remarked, doing it in 5/4 is an useless complication for a beginner!) I would start with the blues in F, Bb and C, keeping the impro on the blues scale and paying attention to follow the 12-bar structure. Later, you could start using the notes and modes from each chord in addition to the blues scale. Then you could take some easy standard, like "Tune Up", and practice improvisation on II-V-I. Before really improvising on the whole structure, take every key apart. Also, concentrate on one kind of improvisation at a time.. like, thinking about scales, or about arpeggios, then chromatic passages... and finally, trying to put all of the above together. Also, play with your right hand only sometimes - but keeping the time anyway. There's no time to wait for the right mood... instead, when you have the concepts together, you will enjoy creating solos with different moods and directions. By simply getting deeply into it, strange wheel will start spinning, and "the right mood" will look as a silly concept! Really, this is the only kind of advice one can give over the net... you need to take advice from teachers, books, and your own discoveries from long and concentrated studies. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 I have to wait for the right mood to post, but... in music, you always have to be ready for rapid deployment. In addition to the advice given (a teacher, books, etc.), I heard your other track in the Reharm Room, so this is what I hear: Your time is good. You relate to the melody of the song strongly. Your confidence is good. Your technique is good for what you're doing. You have a desire to play and a lot to develop. You're just starting. When playing standards, make sure you're playing them correctly. "Take Five" (you're in Eb minor?) contains the 7th in the famous bass line, which would be a Db. Also, learn to solo through the whole form of the tune with the bridge. But as pointed out, I wouldn't spend much time on any 5/4 tune right now. On "Shadow Of Your Smile", you were playing mostly the most basic chordal voicings. You should develop a deeper harmonic sense for chords. With more chords comes more options for lines to play. Applying the cycle of fifths will open up a lot for you. Practice on your own without the drum machine. And listen to and absorb as many great musicians as possible on recordings. Listening goes hand in hand with practicing and playing. Good luck to you. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Great advice from the above masters. A piano teacher once told me that before you can play something, you have to first "hear" it. So listen to a lot of different people play, and learn to play licks that move you. This will assist you in developing a musical "vocabulary"....a never-ending process! "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 You're getting some incredible advice, robson. If you've heard these guys play, you'd know they are top-notch players. I'm trying to take in what they're saying myself "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anderz Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 I'm confused at what they are saying... Anyways, it's a pretty good 5/4 waltz jam, my suggestion is to play some stuff harmonized, maybe hitting a chord or two in there would help. Good job! Stick it to the man. http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/anderseb/ (Muh homepage of greatness) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robson Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 I'm confused at what they are saying... actually me too, and a little disappointed. That not what I meant, I was hoping get comments on solo itself which is not so harmonic and strictly following rules. Maybe I'm not that good (and that's fine, I'm amateur player and I'd like stay that way), maybe I'm rusty but I'm not a beginner and didn't ask what to play or what to practice. Been playing and always preferred odd signatures, don't see anything wrong with them. Even my originals are often in odd measures. But I play also straight and boring 4/4 , here is short "sweet georgia brown" without drum machine with harmonic solo in plain 4/4 if you care to listen. http://www.4shared.com/file/125436871/1c8c0c7a/sweet_georgia.html Thanks SK for your insight I appreciate you took time to listen both tracks. Not sure what you meant by "Applying the cycle of fifths" the "shadow" is all based on this plus some substitution, and there are not only basic chord voicing, but that probably got lost because of the sound of drum machine so it was hard to hear. I know that because it was based on some very good/pro piano player suggestions I took lessons with. Also it was not really solo here, just converted theme a little and I agree it's simple. I wanted to preserve nice melody. Probably you're right I should play more without a drummer. Regarding take five the bass line I play I like better, Db I moved to right hand, a lot Regarding "mood" I guess we didn't understand each other, although I know when you're pro and earn money playing you cannot afford being not in the "mood", but this is a little different story. have a nice day, robson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 The comments make perfect sense - the information was amazing. Dave Horne, marino, and SK are three of the finest jazz musicians on this forum, and they gave you a veritable gold mine of info. If you don't understand what they said, I'd recommend finding a teacher to help explain it to you. It would be money well spent. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Perhaps he was looking for something specific that he did not get, fishing for something without using the right bait (to overextend the metaphor). Too bad, it's a shame when people are helpful and polite and all that, and the person almost acts insulted "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Me thinks robson is having some fun with us; I certainly hope so ... or Jonathan Edwards has a son we don't know about. I am writing this after having listened to Sweet Georgia Brown. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Me thinks robson is having some fun with us.... +1 "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 The real Jonathan Edwards (aka Paul Weston) ... Nola No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Warren Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 The real Jonathan Edwards (aka Paul Weston) ... Nola WTF?!?!? Um... Thanks for the education... I think. DigitalFakeBook Free chord/lyric display software for windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Wiki ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Weston I wrote a letter to Jo Stafford years ago while she was alive. Jo Stafford was Darlene Edwards and was a great singer. It is surprisingly difficult to play (and sing) badly intentionally. I find alcohol works wonders. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Warren Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Ah, that's a relief. I didn't notice anything on the Amazon link to suggest it was deliberate. DigitalFakeBook Free chord/lyric display software for windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 The album cover should give a clue ... http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PN0VFC9EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Warren Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Nope. Don't see anything wrong with that. DigitalFakeBook Free chord/lyric display software for windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I'll try to take mr. robson totally seriously, and clarify: The reason why I suggested to develop your melodic sense, was that I found your improvisation rather simplistic. Sorry if you find that a bit brutal, but I thought it was implicit in what I said the first time. That's also the reason why I suggested to start with simpler structures. Regarding "mood" I guess we didn't understand each other, although I know when you're pro and earn money playing you cannot afford being not in the "mood", but this is a little different story. This has absolutely nothing to do with what I said about this matter, as will be easy to see if you reread my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I'm confused at what they are saying... actually me too, and a little disappointed. That not what I meant, I was hoping get comments on solo itself which is not so harmonic and strictly following rules. OK, coming from someone who is more a casual piano player, I found your improvisation to be more on the level of what I'd probably turn out. That's really not a good thing, considering it's been 8 years since I last sat at a piano. In recent years, I've developed a greater affinity for stringed instruments over the keys. Your improv follows a very rigid "response" system - there is the announcement of the chords, and your response, and your response is not that interesting. Had you not told me you were improvising, I would have assumed you were playing a written baseline over which vocals were expected. I apologize in advance if this assessment offends you. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Too bad, it's a shame when people are helpful and polite and all that, and the person almost acts insulted Exactly my reason for no longer offering musical advice or critique to someone I don't know, especially someone who appears to be in the 15-29 year old range, on this forum. It's not worth it knocking yourself out spending time thinking of a intelligent and helpful response only to have some 20 something kid get indignant and suddenly turn into a know it all at the ripe age of 22. https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris https://www.youtube.com/@daveferris2709 2005 NY Steinway D Yamaha AvantGrand N3X, CP88, P515 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Sounds quantized and sped up. The timing sounds too perfect from someone playing those off notes. Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 800 of Harry's solo piano arrangements and tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas These arrangements are for teaching solo piano chording using Harry's 2+2 harmony method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Not sure what you meant by "Applying the cycle of fifths" the "shadow" is all based on this plus some substitution... Quick sample of more stuff you can do with chords on "Shadow": http://stashbox.org/602408/some%20chords%20on%20shadow%20of%20your%20smile.mov Now... you're not living in a vacuum. You have access to plenty of musical resources on recordings and the net for endless possibilities on tunes like this - better examples than what I just gave. In the title of this thread you asked for criticism and even offered to accept something like "you suck", which no one said. The people kind enough to give advice should not be criticized, since you asked for it. Generally speaking, there's no requirement to help someone or to post at all. (I posted the stupidest thing of all time yesterday on a joke country tune - I expect anytime to be arrested by the Music Police and Constable Horne.) When giving advice to guys like robson, I don't see it as a personal message for him. It's there for whoever's reading - someone else may benefit, even though the majority of readers are considerably younger than some of us and may not often appreciate it. Is it a waste of time? Who knows? Sure it is sometimes. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I posted the stupidest thing of all time yesterday on a joke country tune - I expect anytime to be arrested by the Music Police and Constable Horne. You should receive an award for that posting! No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyzik Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 The reason why I suggested to develop your melodic sense, was that I found your improvisation rather simplistic. who said improvisation has to be complex or follow the rules? Ellington C jam blues listen to Duke's solo... I found robson take 5 jam interesting to say the least... great chops. p.s. Plus after listening to SGB I can tell he is not a beginner as was suggested. That brings up question how can professional musicians be easily fooled by listening to some isolated piece of music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Regarding being in the mood, I was thinking this AM that should never be a problem, at least once the song has started. In fact, whatever mood that has you not being in the mood should influence the mood you communicate during your improv. (I tried to get "mood" in there as many times as I could.) I mean, yeah, you may be thinking about working on a tune and going, "my wife is hassling me, the cat is sick, my car won't start, I need to do laundry" but once you're playing the song, the music is the moment. Isn't that the point? So sit down, start playing, and let the music take you where it wants you to go. "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Joe, you're awfully moody. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 who said improvisation has to be complex or follow the rules? Absolutely nobody. 'Simplistic' is not simple, is basic and uninteresting. Ellington C jam blues listen to Duke's solo... I know that solo inside out... you think it's seriously comparable with robson's "Take Five"? I found robson take 5 jam interesting to say the least... great chops. That's your privilege. p.s. Plus after listening to SGB I can tell he is not a beginner as was suggested. That brings up question how can professional musicians be easily fooled by listening to some isolated piece of music I see he is having some fun with us. I don't see the point in wasting more time on it. Don't you think that any expert musician could sound like an amateur with a bit of thought? (Interestingly enough, I *was* called to sound like an amateur a couple of times, while recording music for tv movies and they had a piano beginner on screen.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Joe, you're awfully moody. Have you been talking to my family again? "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyzik Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Quick sample of more stuff you can do with chords on "Shadow": http://stashbox.org/602408/some%20chords%20on%20shadow%20of%20your%20smile.mov nice, so the idea is to screw the original up so badly that nobody can recognize it... p.s. Now I understand why jazz has so small amount of fans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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