Idea for the slab piano with speakers

[humannoyed]

I was looking online at the new Yamaha P-155 - anyone played or heard it yet? - anyway...it has built in 12 watt per channel speaker system, which got me thinking...If Roland or Yamaha put in slighty heavier duty speakers and increased the watts to around 30 or 40 per channel, then there would be no need to even carry an amp to smaller solo, duo, or even quiet trio gigs.

 

There could even be an optional small bass woofer with padding on top that doubled as the piano bench. Imagine taking only 3 pieces to the gig - the slab, the stand and the bench/woofer.

 

Does that idea interest anyone to pay an additional $200 or so (not counting woofer/bench) above a digital piano's current cost?

 

Day

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Compare to the Yamaha CP-300 - amplifier specs at 30w per channel, has two 13cm speakers. No external subwoofer in the bench, however.

 

Only 3 pieces to carry to the gig - but the CP-300 weighs slightly over 71 pounds (31 kg). That is the big problem; by the time you put the CP300 in a case to protect it while being hauled, you have a hundred pounds - like carrying an original 88 key Fender Rhodes (portable in the military sense - enough grunts, you can carry it anywhere).

 

I thought about buying a CP300 for that very reason, all in one piece, external audio to feed FOH PA for larger venues. After trying to pick up and carry the one that the college has - I decided on my PC3X (for studio) and PC3 (76 key for gigging) instead with a pair of 10" powered PA cabs (and I also have a pair of 15" powered cabs when I want heavier bass). Lots of lighter pieces are easier for me to move than a smaller number of really heavy pieces.

 

Yamaha, Kurzweil, and others do have home keyboards that are made with good amplification systems and speakers on the higher end (the new Kurzweil shown at Musicmeisse is a PC3X slab mounted in a grand piano case with attached pedals, amps and speakers) - but they aren't that easy to move around for gigging.

 

Speaking of the idea of the bass speaker in the stand, I do know a pedal steel player that uses his amp with a custom top as a seat, so he only has to carry the steel and amp to a gig. I've got a Trace Elliot 2x10 bass cab that is about the right height for a seat, but it weighs about 65 pounds - my powered 10" PA cabs weigh 26 pounds each.

 

I would actually love to have the new Kurzweil home unit in my living room just for family use, it would look a lot better than the PC2X and couple of PA cabs that are in there now. However, the price differential will likely be considerably more than $200.

 

[SK]

I've had the same idea before too, how to get the best sound with the least, possibly with better onboard speakers. It's a valid concept.

 

I solved it for myself by rigging up a Bose Wave System along with the FP4 built-in speakers.

 

I use two older Wave systems plus mixer, and can go out to a PA for bigger gigs. But for most gigs, I can get by with just the FP4 and one 14 lb. Wave. I swear, every single gig I've used it on, musicians say it sounds "awesome" and can't believe it.

 

I've already discussed the details in other threads. I had to use an unorthodox cable hookup configuration to get the most out of it, but it's much better than any current built-in keyboard speakers alone.

 

So keep thinking outside the box, humannoyed... you might come up with something.

[JeffLearman]

Only 3 pieces to carry to the gig - but the CP-300 weighs slightly over 71 pounds (31 kg). That is the big problem; by the time you put the CP300 in a case to protect it while being hauled, you have a hundred pounds - like carrying an original 88 key Fender Rhodes ...

I guess it's been a while since you moved a Rhodes 88! They're closer to 200 lbs fully packed (with pedal, legs, and supports). The 73 is nearly 150, IIRC.

 

But your point is still valid. I love the fact that I can easily load my 55-lb keyboard into my minivan by myself, without worrying about banging up the car (it's in a rigid foam case, ideal for my purposes). Every time I take the 10 minutes or less to load/unload my rig, I smile at how much better it is than the bad old days of gigging with a CP70, Rhodes, and synth. Now my heaviest trip is carrying my two floor monitors, which are 45 lbs each, still a cakewalk compared to lugging the Rhodes (which I did occasionally do by myself, but would NOT try today!) Best of all, the modern rig sounds dramatically better overall. I now have Hammond organ, piano sounds way better, and even my soundfont-based Rhodes is better in many ways.

 

Over 80 lbs or so, it gets difficult to load/unload, unless it's a truck or van you don't mind gouging up. These days, I'd rather take an extra trip than risk wrecking my back with heavy gear.

[Jazz+]

SK,

 

I must have missed a previous discussion, I did not know the Bose Wave System had worked out for you. With Bose I assume you mostly get a smooth midrange. Can you tell more about how loud you are able to be and what the sound quality is like compared to perhaps studio monitors or your other live speakers? Also how careful do you have to be moving the Bose Wave System and are they easy to set up?

 

J+

[Jazz+]

Should I replace my Yamaha MSP5 powered studio monitors with a pair of Bose Waves? I have a pair of these Yamaha MSP5 speakers: The MSP5 Studio features a 5" cone woofer driven by a 40-watt amplifier and a 1" dome tweeter driven by a 27-watt amplifier.

 

Yamaha MSP5 (16.5 lbs each)

http://www.22film.com/shop/images/200412/ER_41ae9d2f7576010899649540419734.jpg

 

Bose Acoustic Wave (14.3 lbs)

http://www.tech2.com/media/images/2008/Aug/img_84621_bose_acoustic_wave_2.jpg

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I guess it's been a while since you moved a Rhodes 88! They're closer to 200 lbs fully packed (with pedal, legs, and supports). The 73 is nearly 150, IIRC.

 

But your point is still valid. I love the fact that I can easily load my 55-lb keyboard into my minivan by myself, without worrying about banging up the car (it's in a rigid foam case, ideal for my purposes). Every time I take the 10 minutes or less to load/unload my rig, I smile at how much better it is than the bad old days of gigging with a CP70, Rhodes, and synth. Now my heaviest trip is carrying my two floor monitors, which are 45 lbs each .........

Over 80 lbs or so, it gets difficult to load/unload, unless it's a truck or van you don't mind gouging up. These days, I'd rather take an extra trip than risk wrecking my back with heavy gear.

 

You and me both - it has been a while, in the 80's a church I was with in Elizabeth City had an 88 key Rhodes - it took 2 of us to move it a short distance, 3 or 4 to move it a longer distance. Still wasn't as heavy as a B3 console at 405 pounds. 25 years later, weight makes even more difference. My PC3X in a hard case is movable by myself, but just barely. The PC3 in case is a lot easier. I have a RockNRoller cart that I had extended by a foot by a local welder - so it is long enough for the 76 and 88 key cased boards to lay flat at the bottom, then put PA speakers on top with seat and misc stuff in middle. I can pick up one end - get that started in the van, then pick up the other end and shove it in the van.

 

I worked on a number of CP70's and CP80's back in the day. In my late 30's, I even had a full size church organ in my home, and moved it from New Bern to Elizabeth City with one helper, then to Hertford when I sold it.

 

I have the lightweight ATA style cases with foam for all my boards, I wouldn't want to ship them by commercial carrier; but I take the effort to not bang them or the van up any more than I can help. I used to play bass guitar, but the old style amps and cabs for that get heavy real quick (they are now left at the church and used for keyboards). I wanted at 4x10 Trace cab until I found out just how much it weighed.

 

[SK]

SK,

 

I must have missed a previous discussion, I did not know the Bose Wave System had worked out for you. With Bose I assume you mostly get a smooth midrange. Can you tell more about how loud you are able to be and what the sound quality is like compared to perhaps studio monitors or your other live speakers? Also how careful do you have to be moving the Bose Wave System and are they easy to set up?

 

J+

J+, since I discussed this in several threads a while back, just PM me if you want the details, so it doesn't hijack this thread. I've been using this system for months now, and liked it enough to sell my beloved Accugrooves. It feels like I 'beat the system.' The Wave was never meant to be used this way or hooked up this way.

 

It mainly provides mids and bass, but in immediate stereo, without positioning yourself between L/R speakers. I blend the FP4 internal speakers for more highs. It sounds very piano like.

 

It's loud enough to cut most gigs. With my mixer and another extra Wave system, it's more than loud enough for any gig I'd play.

 

It always stays in the Bose carrying case, with the cables already plugged in. So once the gear is in the room, setup time is maybe 30 sec. or so.

 

I stumbled across it by trial and error, but it's the way I have the cables running in an unorthodox way that make it work, using two processors inside the Bose instead of one. It's full stereo, but hooking it up normal, straight L/R stereo does not sound even half as good.

 

I also use older Bose models off of EBay which are analog and allow for the special hookup. The used models may be found for about $250 - $450. It's like it's tailor made for the FP4, but I can't attest to how well it sounds for other keyboards.

 

Piano4U has tried it and now uses the same system, with just one Bose and no mixer. The mixer only gives more tone definition.

[bhodaway10]

I had the P250 (last generation CP-300) and when I bought it I had the same sentiments to use the onboard speakers for small venues. I felt the P250's speakers are GREAT for a small rooms or rehearsals . When I played with my jazz trio (adding a drummer and bass player) and competing against crowd noise, etc. made an amp a necessity.

 

Also, lifting that beast (75 lbs) was not fun at all.

 

I'm using the Accugroove setup right now and think the sound is marvelous. However, w/ ANY PA system setup, there are a lot of pieces (don't forget the mixer w/ precious knobs and faders!) and cords to move around. I do get tired of moving it around and setting it up.

 

Has any of the venue owners ever noticed or commented about how long it takes for you guys to setup?

 

I saw that Rhodes has a "base" or "stand" for their keyboards that is basically a speaker and thought that was a cool idea.

 

http://www.rhodespiano.com/rhodes_speakers.htm

 

 

[humannoyed]

J+, since I discussed this in several threads a while back, just PM me if you want the details, so it doesn't hijack this thread.

 

Aw' heyull' don't worry hijacking this thread! It's all good...

 

 

I don't think adding slightly heavier duty speakers and 30 or 40 extra watts of power should increase the weight by 30 plus lbs like the CP300.

 

The alternative I thought of was the woofer/bench has a storage area for some small but powerful stereo speakers (think computer size or only slighty larger, but specially designed to for digital piano sound quality with good full midrange) that could be somehow easily mounted on the keyboard stand at, or near each end of the keyboard, or...maybe velcroed to the top of the piano itself at each end. The speakers could even stay plugged in when packed up and just pulled away from the woofer/bench and the cord unwound the distance needed.

 

Marketable product?

 

Day

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

I was looking online at the new Yamaha P-155 - anyone played or heard it yet? -

 

At NAMM in January. Same old same old. There wasn't much of a difference from the

CP33/P140/P etc./etc. from what I could tell.

 

I still opt to keep my older P120 just because I don't feel Yamaha has really improved much in that class of DPs. The CP300 is different story though. On the other hand, it rarely gets taken out because of the schlep factor.

[Sven Golly]

I don't know why, but I have the irresistible urge to link this picture:

 

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6853/blueprintsio5.jpg

 

(okay, I do know why... and no offense meant to any participants in this thread... )

 

 

[Joe Muscara]

LOL Sven!

[SK]

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6853/blueprintsio5.jpg

 

Hey, somebody stole my schematic!

 

(One of your charts, Sven?) That's funny. My setup does resemble that now. Uh, so will the American cars of the future.

[bhodaway10]

I loved the ride at Universal Studios!

 

[SK]

(okay, I do know why... and no offense meant to any participants in this thread... )

I really did get a chuckle out of it, but thanks for the disclaimer anyway. And likewise, certainly my custom setup description was never meant to annoy "any participants in this thread" who would prefer a really 'kick ass' system:

 

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/thumb/2/2a/Grandmarshall.jpg/300px-Grandmarshall.jpg

 

 

[SpaceNorman]

Compare to the Yamaha CP-300 - amplifier specs at 30w per channel, has two 13cm speakers. No external subwoofer in the bench, however.

 

Only 3 pieces to carry to the gig - but the CP-300 weighs slightly over 71 pounds (31 kg). That is the big problem; by the time you put the CP300 in a case to protect it while being hauled, you have a hundred pounds - like carrying an original 88 key Fender Rhodes (portable in the military sense - enough grunts, you can carry it anywhere).

 

I gig with a CP300 - but can't imagine any sort of gig that I could use it without some sort of added amplification. The speakers on the CP300 point straight up - so sound from it doesn't carry much at all. They're GREAT for practicing at home - but for any gig where you want to project the sound (even at relatively low volume) I can't see the onboard speakers alone as being anything but an epic fail.

 

As far as the weight goes ... there's no question that the CP300 is heavy by today's standard. I figure it's roughly 30-35 pounds heavier than most digital pianos. My rationale for carrying it is that for any given gig I spend maybe 5 minutes actually carrying the thing - and roughly 180 minutes playing it. The 5 minutes of lugging an extra 30 pounds for the 180 minutes of playing pleasure seems like a reasonable sacrifice.

[eric]

Should I replace my Yamaha MSP5 powered studio monitors with a pair of Bose Waves?

 

ABSOLUTELY! I love it when a thread sparks GAS for us gear heads on the forum! Do let us know how the new gear works out for you and hope you can find the same nirvana as SK and Piano4U with your new rig.

[JeffLearman]

Should I replace my Yamaha MSP5 powered studio monitors with a pair of Bose Waves?

I assume you're joking. I hope you're joking!

 

I like Bose speakers. I always dug the images you could get with the old 901's. I have a pair of 802's that I really like (even more now that I've replaced my ancient power amps with mo-betta modern power -- I thought the speakers had degraded but it turns out it was the power!) I also have a pair of little Lifetime speakers on my desk as monitors for my computer, keyboards, etc. Those are the indoor/outdoor ones with the same 4 1/2" drivers as the 802's. Oh yeah, I have another pair in the dining room for a small dinner stereo; speakers up out of sight.

 

But I don't recommend them for studio monitoring. They tend to make everything sound "sweet" and kind of the same. You don't get the accuracy and definition you need for mixing and mastering. I haven't auditioned the Wave, but I suspect they suffer from the same problem. They aren't even terribly useful as comparison monitors, because nothing ever sounds very bad through them, whereas a test mix could boom like hell in my car, or sound thin on a quality home stereo.

 

BTW, I don't at all care for the tiny wall-mountable Bose speakers, which always sound terribly colored and lifeless to my ear. Years ago my folks finally broke down and got a new stereo for their home. When they told me what they were using, I was hopeful. After listening, I lied through my teeth said "Sounds great!" It was a huge improvement, anyway. Since then I've noticed the same wherever I've heard these speakers (both the super tiny ones and the merely small ones my folks have). I think they just ask too much of the subwoofer.

[SK]

Folks...

 

I'm not championing Bose speakers. This isn't defending the standard Bose sound or an endorsement of Bose Wave Systems. I mostly agree with learjeff about the standard sound of Bose products.

 

Unless it was hooked up in this specific way, the basic stereo sound of the Wave for the FP4 is just as expected... not adequate, and I wouldn't recommend replacing studio monitors with it.

 

But - as with all piano samples, the FP4 has a limited range of frequencies. The setup I'm using seems to exploit those frequencies fully, based on what I hear as the most pianistic qualities in the sample. It's making the Bose perform in a different way than it was intended or imagined. To say more would only risk more Homer Simpson comparisons.

 

Without hearing it, there's no way to know, and you only have Piano4U's and my ears for what we're hearing. I'd never let my Accugrooves go if it wasn't a viable solution. Perhaps if there's another Mid-Atlantic Hang and I make it by, a live demonstration would make the point.

 

Was just sharing a strange solution I ran across to augment onboard speakers for live use... sorry about the perfectly understandable confusion. (Now I know how kanker feels when he talks about mono. )

[resigned]

I always thought Casio had an interesting idea with their PX-800 digital piano, which is to build the powered speaker system into the keyboard stand (2 x 20 watts). But the PX800 weighs about 99lbs total, much more than a CP300, so that's not the solution. Still, the idea of a keyboard stand combined with a powered speaker system may have some commercial merit.

 

I have gigged many times with my Kawai ES4 piano, which has a 2 x 13 watt internal speaker system, and when I need just slightly more power I've used my Motion Sound KP-100s which is 100 watts stereo and only weighs about 35 lbs.

[SK]

I had an older Roland DP that had speakers in the stands, but it made the stands awkward to carry and it didn't sound that good. But the idea is cool. It could be improved.

 

I used to have a MS KP-100, which I liked and it sounded good in quiet settings, but would distort if it was cranked.