Buying an acoustic: advice for a newbie

[_Sweet Willie_]

Hey y'all,

 

I'm an experienced bass player who has snuck over from the Low Down Lowdown to ask you for some help.

 

A friend of mine wants to begin playing guitar. She is interested in getting an acoustic guitar and taking lessons.

 

Some background:

1. She is not new to music (has singing, violin, sax, and piano in her background), but is a hobbiest who plays for fun and does not perform.

 

2. While she does not have the means or interest in springing for an expensive guitar, she is flexible about price and could probably spend up to $750/$1000. She wants to avoid picking up a "beginner" instrument that she might be dissatisfied with 6 months or a year into playing.

 

3. She is a small woman -- about 5' tall.

 

She lives in NYC, and I've offered to go with her to a couple of stores in the city so she can try some guitars to see how they feel. We'll probably visit Rudy's and Matt Umanov, for example, among others. She will likely not order a guitar online and will likely purchase from a store in the greater NYC area.

 

Also, I can easily connect her to some guitarist friends of mine if she wants their opinion about models she may be considering.

 

OK, all that said, I figured y'all might have some suggestions about models to investigate (e.g., I've heard some nice things about Seagull acoustic guitars), particular things to pay attention to about the build of an acoustic when trying one out, and other tips to keep in mind.

 

I'll stop there for now. I hope that's enough info to get you going.

 

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

[Gifthorse]

Well the amount she is willing to spend is quite a bit for a beginner. I would recommend finding someone who knows a good guitar from playing it and having him/her go with her to choose one. For her budget it is really pointless to say what is right. That amount of money can buy something excellent.

 

I like Taylors, Martins (though I USUALLY tend towards Taylor), but there are other brands too that may have something nice for that price. Also don't avoid used instruments. Usually a good acoustic is taken care of. I would also look at Alvarez Yairi, or just Yairi acoustics. Very nice guitars.

 

But really the best favor you can do for this girl is to have someone who can really play go to choose something for her. Beginners can often be swayed by the looks of a guitar or the salesman. If someone can play--they know. They will pick out something good, and over time she will realise why.

 

Thats my 2 cent..

[miroslav]

 

 

http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/group.php?cid=75

 

The 250 thru 750, plus 850 models are smaller (normal size)...the rest are Jumbos.

 

Real easy playing necks (important for a new player) and great sound...better than some expensive name brands, IMO.

I really love the tone of the 250S with the cedar top!

 

(I have a 250 and 350)

 

Oh...plus they have a $150 rebate right now...and cost less than what I paid for mine!

 

[_Sweet Willie_]

Thanks for the initial responses!

 

I think that before she buys anything, but once she's narrowed down her choices a bit, I'll suggest that a guitarist friend of mine play the "finalists" and offer some opinions.

 

Well the amount she is willing to spend is quite a bit for a beginner. I would recommend finding someone who knows a good guitar from playing it and having him/her go with her to choose one. For her budget it is really pointless to say what is right. That amount of money can buy something excellent.

 

To clarify, I don't think she wants to spend that much -- just that she could. The main point is that she's not restricted by price. I think she'd be happiest staying around $500.

 

Looking forward to hearing more.

 

Thanks,

--SW

 

 

 

[soggybomb]

This Taylor is fantastic: http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Taylor-114CE-Grand-Auditorium-AcousticElectric-Guitar?sku=514495

 

Plays like butter.

[Scott Fraser]

She lives in NYC, and I've offered to go with her to a couple of stores in the city so she can try some guitars to see how they feel. We'll probably visit Rudy's and Matt Umanov, for example, among others.

 

Umanov is pretty upscale & likely to be pricey. I would also check the upstairs acoustic room at 30th St Guitars, & while visiting Rudy's on 48th, check the acoustic room in the back of Sam Ash next door, & also the across the street at Manny's. I've felt the most pressure to s**t or get off the pot from the sales dudes at Rudy's.

 

Scott Fraser

[Terrell]

Seagulls are quality instruments. They have a very wide nut, and for a short girl, may be to wide... I love them because they have a wide nut and I have large hands. These are my favorite guitars to play because they fit my hands well.

 

Taylor and Tacoma are probably my favorite tone guitars. The Taylors are fantastic instruments. Intonation up and down the fret board is as near perfect as anything. Also, if she wants to hybrid pick, Taylor have a balanced tone for both fingers and picks. To bright for many players, but as a hybrid player I like them.

 

The Seagull Canadians make another guitar brand. I can't quite remember the name of... Someone here might. That might be a good fit for her. Prices are great, quality is great, glue is low - which is a measure of a guitar in my book...

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

You do not buy an acoustic guitar by name or model number. Acoustic guitars are each pretty individual. You could find a $5,000 guitar that is just awful, and a $500 guitar that is everything that you will ever want.

 

But you have to go an dplay them.

 

In NYC there are plenty of outlets for good instruments. If she takes an experienced player with an open mind along with her and she hits the stores, she'll probably find the guitar of her dreams. It is a lot harder in smaller towns.

 

The trick is not to be intent on buying an instrument,, or wanting a Gibson, Martin, Taylor or whatever. The trick is to LISTEN and FEEL. Your acoustic guitar will let you know that it isd the one that you want. If there is a question in your mind, DON'T BUY. Your guitar is still out there.

 

Bill

[miroslav]

They have a very wide nut, and for a short girl, may be too wide...

 

Ahhhhhh.....mmmmmmm......no, I won't touch that...

 

:grin:

[_Sweet Willie_]

 

Thanks, again.

 

I don't think she feels pressure to buy right away, and can spend time trying lots of things. I also tend to agree that make/model is not the be all end all -- sometimes because of lack of consistency in a certain line, sometimes because the components came together just right for a specific instrument, and sometimes because one person's coal is another's gold nugget.

 

I hear you about how the sales staff can sometimes be at Rudy's. I've had that experience, too, and have heard the same from others. At Rudy's I have a connection to one of the folks who works in the acoustic room (although I'm not sure if he still does). He was really great when I took my daughter (then 10) to try some acoustics.

 

I'll probably take her to a few places to get her started and then hopefully add in a more experienced guitarist to the search. I can play enough to know what feels good or sounds good to me. I know enough to help her figure out initially what may feel better or worse about different models in her hands. In the end, I think the fact that she'll have some latitude financially will help keep more doors open during her search.

 

Y'all are doing great with the advice and thoughts. Thx.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Just to make thre point, because you play bass and not guitar.... electric guitarists and bassists know that a given model from a given manufacturer is going to have a given sound. The same is not true with acoustic instruments. Once you get over $500 (and out of the plywood range) guitars tend to take on theor own personalities, regardless of maker or price. I even found a used Ovation Balladeer (with a round plastic bowl back, if you're not familiar...) that sounded fantastic, and I picked it up for $300. I was very happy with that guitar, and only got rid of it when I decided to downsize the collection.

 

Good luck on your search and remember, salesmen suck. Buy what you want, not what they are pushing this week.

 

Bill

[Billster]

I vote Seagull. I also took a good look at the Breedlove Atlas series.

 

As for size, look away from the dreadnaughts and towards the "concert" size instruments if she feels like it would be hard to handle a large body.

[Bluesape]

They have a very wide nut, and for a short girl, may be too wide...

 

Ahhhhhh.....mmmmmmm......no, I won't touch that...

 

:grin:

 

 

Bad Miro!!! Go wash your mind out with soap!

[GovernorSilver]

Definitely have her try a bunch of guitars and get her to check the neck relief by examining the fingerboard with the headstock pointed at her face. I had a Takamine but the bridge needed a shim and the neck had relief on one side (lengthwise) of the neck and next to none on the other. Yikes!

 

I settled on a Boulder Creek. Surprisingly good guitar for the money and the action is pretty decent too. But the key factor was finding a guitar shop run by people who just want to match you up with the right instrument instead of upselling all the time. That's how I got the Boulder Creek (which I never heard of before) - the shop owner suggested I try it. It helped that he knew who Andy McKee was and thus had a good idea of what I wanted to play.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Thanks.

 

I'll be doing my best to guide her to shops or work with sales people with whom I'm already familiar or with whom people like my daughter's guitar teacher and my NYC-based gitbox playin' pals are familiar with.

 

If I tried a mini-synthesis of the advice thus far -- not including specific brand or model advice.

 

1. Encourage her to get many instruments in her hands. Even though she's new to the instrument, she will be able to make some basic determinations about how the instrument feels.

 

2. Involve some of my experienced guitar playing friends in the instrument evaluation, too.

 

3. Don't worry too much about make and model up front. Start with feel and sound.

 

4. Interpret the suggestions of salespeople with caution.

 

There is an advantage in that she is not in a rush. She can take her time checking out instruments.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

[Larryz]

$700 to $1,000 can buy a good quality acoustic-electric...I'd recommend a cut-away design with a thin neck that's easy to play all the way up...a good case and a nice sound plugged and unplugged...rosewood sides and backing with a spruce wood front is nice...brands are many but stick with feedback from other acoustic players...but before buying find out what kind of music she's into and check out guitars that will fit her basic interests like...classical, blues, nylon, bluegrass, rock ballads, country, etc...

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

Where the name on the headstock really makes a difference is when you get ready to resell. A used Martin or Taylor will likely hold more of it's original value than a used Seagull. That's not to say that a Seagull isn't a good guitar. They generally are. It's just the way the market works.

 

That said, my suggestion would be to start looking at good used Martin 000 and 00 sized guitars. You'll get more bang for your buck with a carefully selected used instrument....or maybe even a nylon string classical guitar. If you go looking at classical guitars, get ready for some sticker shock, though. It's very, very difficult to find a concert level classical guitar for anything less than about $4,000....and they go up to around $30,000. You can find some very good estudio level (student level) classical guitars in your price range ($1,000 to $1,500) if you buy used.

[gaddis]

In the price range you are looking at, you can get an excellent guitar. The Martin D-15 and D-16 series come to mind. You can also spend less and get a pretty decent guitar. I tried out a SeaGull in the $400 range and thought it to be really nice. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend one. In this day and age, the quality of instruments in even the low price ranges is miles above what it was when I first learned to play in the 60's. Anybody who cannot learn to play on almost any guitar made today should not be blaming the instrument.

 

Also, since you are in NYC, you might want to pay a visit to the Mandolin Brothers store in Staten Island. They don't really specialize in the lower price ranges but what you will find there will be prime quality, since they keep the place properly humidified, etc. Not to mention that it's a very cool place to visit and there will be zero sales pressure.

[EffectsGuru]

Ok, this is REALLY important so listen up, make sure she gets an acoustic with a REAL WOOD TOP, many instruments being sold now have tops that are ply wood, and they don't sound nearly as good. First of all, DO NOT buy a FENDER, or a GIBSON, they are both notoriously BAD at making acoustic guitars and every luthier who works on them knows it! She could get a Martin if she is willing to spend a grand, but LARRIVEE is better in that price range! Again, make sure it has a REAL WOOD TOP (as ALL LARRIVEE's do, and not every Martin does, especially not in that price range) (she would have to buy a used one on ebay to get the price down to $1000.00 but I HIGHLY recommend it!) Another brand to check out, Taylor is another alright option, however, not as good as Larrivee. I just checked Ebay and I'm now CERTAIN that her best bet is to get a used Larrivee on ebay, just makes sure to view there feedback and buy off sellers that have a feedback rating of 99%-100% positive feedback and at least 50 transactions, and pay VIA PAYPAL, and you'll be safe from fraud. There is one on there right now with just 9 hours left that isn't even up to $400.00 right now... thats the one i would bid on, this time of year you can get instruments very cheap on EBAY. So tell her to go get herself a Larrivee, you can't beat them. If I wasn't so broke I would bid on that one right now.

[_Sweet Willie_]

...There is one on there right now with just 9 hours left that isn't even up to $400.00 right now... thats the one i would bid on, this time of year you can get instruments very cheap on EBAY. So tell her to go get herself a Larrivee, you can't beat them. If I wasn't so broke I would bid on that one right now.

 

Um, you wouldn't happen to be selling that particular guitar, would you? Or perhaps are friends with the seller? Please excuse my skepticism. Oar knot. Your choice.

 

Even if your intentions are honest, I've gotta say that I think she'll be taking her time with this purchase and not jumping on current eBay offerings. I think she also has a preference to purchase in person.

 

Forgot about Mandolin Bros. That would be a fun trip, and I've never been to that shop.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

PS: My friend has done some lurking and appreciates the advice thus far. Thx.

[_Sweet Willie_]

We went to Guitar Man on Orchard St last night. My friend played two guitars. One was a $100 Johnson, dreadnought body size. She did not like it, and definitely felt like the body was too big. She also played a $500 Smith & Patrick "vintage parlor" model with cedar top and cherry back and sides. She liked it a lot. The parlor size body was way more comfortable to her.

 

She felt like she could've walked out of the store buying the S&P, but certainly wants to try some other guitars first. We intend to try more guitars and hit a couple more shops.

 

I played both guitars. The Smith & Patrick felt better and sounded better to me as well.

 

Are there any reasons why, in the short or long term, she might regret having purchased a parlor-size guitar if she goes that route? In terms of sound, types of music, etc., why might someone prefer a guitar of a particular body size?

 

Also, she doesn't have a preferred style of music to play. As a listener she's quite open-minded and listens to a variety of genres and artists.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

PS: She printed out this thread and brought it with her. The info you have provided helped her ask some really good questions of the salesperson. By the way, I was very pleased with the fellah we spoke with at Guitar Man. Nice little shop.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Again, don't go by looks, go by sound and feel.. Looks is bullshit. Nameplates are bullshit.

 

Many of the standard guitar designs were developed to make the guitar LOUDER, at the expense of tone. The Jumbo and the Dreadnaught are loud, but it is not hard to find a smaller guitar with much better tone, much more even tone. So unless she needs to blow someone else away, body design should not play a part in her decision, beyond playing comfort.

 

Bill

[Billster]

We went to Guitar Man on Orchard St last night. My friend played two guitars. One was a $100 Johnson, dreadnought body size. She did not like it, and definitely felt like the body was too big. She also played a $500 Smith & Patrick "vintage parlor" model with cedar top and cherry back and sides. She liked it a lot. The parlor size body was way more comfortable to her.

 

She felt like she could've walked out of the store buying the S&P, but certainly wants to try some other guitars first. We intend to try more guitars and hit a couple more shops.

 

I played both guitars. The Smith & Patrick felt better and sounded better to me as well.

 

Are there any reasons why, in the short or long term, she might regret having purchased a parlor-size guitar if she goes that route? In terms of sound, types of music, etc., why might someone prefer a guitar of a particular body size?

 

Also, she doesn't have a preferred style of music to play. As a listener she's quite open-minded and listens to a variety of genres and artists.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

PS: She printed out this thread and brought it with her. The info you have provided helped her ask some really good questions of the salesperson. By the way, I was very pleased with the fellah we spoke with at Guitar Man. Nice little shop.

 

I think you mean Simon & Patrick. That's another brand out of the Godin group, like Seagull, LaPatrie, and Art & Lutherie. A similar guitar to the parlor models is the Art & Lutherie "Ami" series, which has a compact body. I played one in a store and found the tone more mid-rangey than a full size, but I can definitely see the sound of that type of guitar for certain styles.

[S. Yeti Bigfoot, Esq.]

I don't think she'll regret buying a parlor sized guitar or 00 or 000 sized guitar or any 12-fret instrument. I think what she would regret is buying a jumbo or dreadnaught that's too big for her to comfortably play. She'll get plenty of tone, volume and projection if she buys a good one. Look for a solid top especially, and solid back and sides if possible.

 

In your (her) price range, I'd look for good used Martins...but that's just me. If you can live with a dreadnaught or jumbo, that opens up the possibilities more and I'd pay less attention to the name on the headstock. In my opinion, nobody builds a small bodied steel string like Martin does...but lots of people build good large bodied guitars.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Thanks, y'all. We may be going back out on Friday evening to try some more.

 

I think you mean Simon & Patrick.

 

Indeed I did. My bad. Thanks for catching the mistake.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

[_Sweet Willie_]

Update:

 

We went to Matt Umanov's. My friend played Seagulls, Taylors, Guilds, and Martins. She loved a mahogany Martin 000-15. Very warm sound. Bigger than the Simon & Patrick she played earlier in the week, but she thought it was very comfortable.

 

Her top choice right now is that Martin. Second place is the Simon & Patrick. I've gotta say that I pretty much agree based on what she's played so far in terms of sound (in my opinion). I was more comfortable on more guitars than she was, so I've got to go somewhat with her judgment on what felt good in her hands.

 

And, yes, the Seagull nut was a little too wide for her.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Has she seen any of the boutique guitars, like Santa Cruz, Breedlove, Goodall, Olson, Collings, etc?

 

Probably out of her price range, but they might give her a sense of balance when it comes to listening and feeling out the instruments.

 

Bill

[_Sweet Willie_]

The exploration is going well. Her next stop was Rudy's. The service and attention were top-notch. Lots of information and no pushiness or pressure.

 

She has now also played two Guilds and a Blueridge and a Taylor cutaway. One of the Guilds spoke to her. I think her top two right now are a Guild and the Martin 000-15 in mahogany she played the other day. The Guild was about the same size.

 

She also took Bill's advice and asked to play an "expensive" guitar to see what that was like. She played a $5,000 Santa Cruz. Oh my. What a lovely instrument that was: feel, sound, visual aesthetics, details.

 

I'm worried that we'll finish this search and not only will she have bought an acoustic guitar, but I will have done so as well!

 

Peace.

--SW

 

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

... She played a $5,000 Santa Cruz. Oh my. What a lovely instrument that was: feel, sound, visual aesthetics, details.

 

--SW

 

Yeah, that was what mine cost. I had given up the search, when I got a phone call, "Bill, you still looking for a guitar...." wow. Made the deal that day.

 

Bill

[Ed H.]

I'd recommend trying several Taylor dealers and look for the lower end Taylor models like the Taylor 210ce. It has great tone, a cutaway, a pickup, a very playable neck... A regular 210 is about $750, and the cutaway electric is $999....

 

Even better, but more money, would be the 312ce...around here they're in the $1400 range, but if you find a good one used, the body shape is small and comfortable, the neck is outstanding, and the tone is particularly great for fingerstyle playing...

 

They're worth looking at....

 

Ed