Ross Brown Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I get this question lately from bars trying to book us. The answer is yes, but I can't promise they will come.... I have gotten this question from a couple of bar venues that are out of our local area recently. The answer to that is that I doubt they will come 30-50 miles to see us when there is plenty of other venues to see bands at locally. They can just wait for us to return. My view (and feel free to offer your own opinion) is that it is the bars job to get the folks in the door and the bands job to keep them. I know this is simplistic and it is really a mix of the two concepts but I just don't know the best answer to this question sometimes. Maybe I should just lie my ass off and say yes... just can't do it... "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenstrum Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Yea, my current Sorority Metrosexual Pop Rock Emo Band has quite a bit of following. Especially of the girls in the age range of 21-27. I think it's both the bars and bands job to get people in the door and stay there. Tenstrum "Paranoid? Probably. But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face." Harry Dresden, Storm Front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davio Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 A timeless conundrum. Bands want to play venues that have a steady clientele to gain fans. Venues want bands that bring in fans to gain a steady clientele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davio Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Sorry I can't help more. I've often wondered the same thing and in my experience things have often just fallen into place. You might want to find other bands that have shows booked where you want to play and ask if you can play an opening set...or ask the venue if they have any shows booked where they'd like an opening band. Once you do that you have a relationship established with the venue and another band and it's more likely that they'll want you back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky McDougall Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 This may not fit your question, but here in Texas, Western Dancehalls are a very big business. The well known, popular bands play in a different venue each week and rotate back to home maybe every 6-8 weeks. Most of the "dancers" are 20-70 years old and they will drive 100 miles to dance to their favorite band several times a month. Rocky "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb, voting on what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb, contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davio Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 ...they will drive 100 miles to dance to their favorite band several times a month. Yes, but you must also take into account that in many parts of Texas you have to drive 100 miles to get to the grocery store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted December 10, 2008 Author Share Posted December 10, 2008 We get good crowds, I just would not call them a "following" based on what I said before. They would not travel 100 miles.... and they way they drink, that is a good thing.... "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danzilla Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 We don't have a following; we're followers. We have a decent sized mailing list, and get good comments and recognition; but people won't go too far to see us. If we're in their area, they make sure they come out. But I can't guarantee a venue that everyone on our list will come to that particular show. Not that we don't try. "Am I enough of a freak to be worth paying to see?"- Separated Out (Marillion) NEW band Old band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcadmus Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Well, you know what they're driving at -- they want to know how many people you're going to draw on a Saturday night. So cut to the chase and say, "yeah, we normally draw about xx people on a weekend gig..." You can fill in whatever number you think is reasonable. My experience is, you want to pack a club for a gig, you have to do the marketing -- the bar won't. Put up posters. Hand out fliers. Tell your friends. Tell your neighbors... "Tours widely in the southwestern tip of Kentucky" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brocko777 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 We don't guarantee anything. We tell 'em how many people on myspace friends... mailing list etc. and that we get 50%+ sometimes, sometimes nothing. If they (the club) likes the music we are playing and think it will entertain the cliente they get then great! Otherwise c-ya. We/I don't like playing to an empty club just as much as the owners not wanting one either! Brocko Don't have a job you don't enjoy. If you're happy in what you're doing, you'll like yourself, you'll have inner peace. ~ Johnny Carson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Capasso Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 We have a broad following in two different locations (Westchester, NY and Long Island, NY). We get an unexpected number of people willing to drive out of their area to see us (Getz and Willie among them). Those areas draw enough people (and are close to where at least some of us live) that we haven't gone outside that. If we went to NJ (for example), I wouldn't know what to say. We'd have friends that would come, and we know people in NJ who would come and bring friends. I couldn't say whether that would get us 25 people or 100. For our area, I usually quote recent gigs. When I was pitching Long Island venues recently, I could honestly say "we put 85 people in Club X in March and 95 people in Club Y the year before". I'm fine saying that because a) it's true b) we can probably do that again. When I first read this, I thought about our audience. Most, by far, are people that we have known and their friends. We have had very few people "discover" us and return. The exception is two women we refer to (publicly) as the "Stonefly Girls" - Marie and Barbara. They found us by accident a few years ago, and have been to almost every gig since. They post on our board, send us venue suggestions, and have been great. They just love the music, and have been a real gift! Tom www.stoneflyrocks.com Acoustic Color Be practical as well as generous in your ideals. Keep your eyes on the stars and keep your feet on the ground. - Theodore Roosevelt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Most of the places that my cover band plays at has a built in crowd. People show up every weekend regardless of who's playing. The trick is keeping them there. We do. We also have a fairly decent sized mailing list. Last time I checked it was ~675 *good* email aliases. Meaning I remove all the ones that bounce or return for some reason. Some of the people that come to every show are venue specific - which isn't surprising since it is ~50 miles or more between the different places we regularly play. There is a small group that is at nearly every show. If the venue you're playing at doesn't have a built in crowd it is up to both the venue and the band to bring people. The venue can't expect the band to save their struggling asses. Case in point: a gig we played ~6 months ago at a struggling club. We agreed to play for less than we usually do to try and help them out. They didn't advertise AT ALL for the gig - not even inside the bar. So no one had a clue that we were going to be playing there that Saturday night. No one but our email list. I sent two emails - one ~2 weeks before the show and one a few days before to remind them. We played to maybe 10 people all night. This place holds 150 easily. I also neglected to mention that it is a total "destination" place. You don't get walk-in traffic. And the place has had a bad reputation for years as being really lame. The new owner was trying to change that... but apparently by change that he meant "hope really hard that people will suddenly want to come to his place". Because he sure as hell wasn't advertising that anything had changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Do the singers sister and fiance count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davio Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Do the singers sister and fiance count? They count to Tom as evidenced by recent The Shirt pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EZ Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 We have the same problems here in GA I'm in Augusta and to try and go to different areas, they always want to know if you have a following, but as it has been said, most people wont drive over a hour to hear you, they will wait until you return to town to see you. The suggestion of opening for a local act is a good idea, if the people like you they will come to see you if you return, and as it has been said you have to do your own advertising. The college towns are great some clubs have a regular crowd, and all you have to do is hold them. I find it to be a good practice to go visit an area that you are thinking about playing at and go club hopping, so you can see what the locals are doing, and where your band would best fit. If you smell something stinking, it's juz me, I'm funky like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b5pilot Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 We used to and fairly large, but they have been dwindling for various reasons mainly having to do with the increasing age of our following and our sh!t economy here in Michigan or moving out of the area, we really don't promise anything. We send out emails and post on our sites and hope some will come out. We're hoping to increase our following by trying to break into new clubs but we'll see. Lydian mode? The only mode I know has the words "pie ala" in front of it. http://www.myspace.com/theeldoradosband Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 If a band has a following, it might make sense for a club to advertise their date at the venue. If not, the might be better off advertising drink specials. That, of course, presupposes the club DOES actually advertise... Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted December 10, 2008 Author Share Posted December 10, 2008 If a band has a following, it might make sense for a club to advertise their date at the venue. If not, the might be better off advertising drink specials. That, of course, presupposes the club DOES actually advertise... In my experience some bars advertise, most don't. We post flyers and send e mails. "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 There are clubs which find out if you have a following by giving you tickets which you must sell to them. If you sell all the tickets, it proves that you have a following and you and the club make money. If you don't have anyone to sell the tickets to, it ends up costing you money to play the gig. Be thankful that the club that asked you the question doesn't have a policy like that. Some clubs advertise and some don't. Some clubowners think they own a castle and that people will just walk in the door and somehow know that a band is playing there. Most clubowners don't care what the band sounds like. They want a band that will attract and keep customers who buy drinks. (But not so many drinks that fights break out). It's a legitimate question for a clubowner to ask if you have a following and more useful for them than "what do you sound like?" If the club runs regular ads in some newspaper or other, the paper will need at least a week and maybe more to get your name in the ad. But if you don't have a following, it won't do the club much good to put your name in the ad. Has anyone ever seen a clubowner who drove a Yugo or an old beater? Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Has anyone ever seen a clubowner who drove a Yugo or an old beater? No. But one of the local club owners smells heavily of sausage all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brocko777 Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 You're a sausage. Don't have a job you don't enjoy. If you're happy in what you're doing, you'll like yourself, you'll have inner peace. ~ Johnny Carson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Sweet Willie_ Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 I think the band and the bar share responsibility for getting people there. My recent experience in NYC clubs is that they expect you to have enough folks show up to cover some of their staff costs. So, usually the cover charge for the first 8 or 10 or 12 paying folks goes to the house (often for the soundguy) and then the rest goes to the band. One club we've played states that you're more likely to be booked there again in the future if 30+ people come to your show. We hit about 28 folks at that club, a Sunday in the summer, which we thought was solid. We haven't approached them about playing there again, but I feel like we're in good enough stead that we should be able to. We play infrequently enough that we can get friends and family to come out repeatedly. I think we've tended to bring in at least 20 people at each of our gigs. I also tend to find that if I've been to a friend's gig, he/she will come to one of mine (e.g., Capasso, getz). Peace. --Dub $$ spreadluv Fanboy? Why, yes! Nordstrand Pickups and Guitars. Messiaen knew how to parlay the funk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted December 11, 2008 Author Share Posted December 11, 2008 There are clubs which find out if you have a following by giving you tickets which you must sell to them. If you sell all the tickets, it proves that you have a following and you and the club make money. If you don't have anyone to sell the tickets to, it ends up costing you money to play the gig. Be thankful that the club that asked you the question doesn't have a policy like that. Some clubs advertise and some don't. Some clubowners think they own a castle and that people will just walk in the door and somehow know that a band is playing there. Most clubowners don't care what the band sounds like. They want a band that will attract and keep customers who buy drinks. (But not so many drinks that fights break out). It's a legitimate question for a clubowner to ask if you have a following and more useful for them than "what do you sound like?" If the club runs regular ads in some newspaper or other, the paper will need at least a week and maybe more to get your name in the ad. But if you don't have a following, it won't do the club much good to put your name in the ad. Has anyone ever seen a clubowner who drove a Yugo or an old beater? I think it is a fair question for them to ask I suppose. Difficult to answer. Perhaps I read too much into it and should answer yes. It is true, we do. But it is just a group of folks that are happy when we show up. The don't travel from bar to bar to see us. We play to full bars most of the time but we don't bring them with us. They are castles. "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainCutthroat Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 The clubs around here pin it all on the bands to bring the people. If you are not part of a scene around here, you need to bust your A$$ and promote or you won't be booked again. The clubs SHOULD be doing their own promotion because it is also in their best interest to do so. 'Should' being the key word in that sentence. It SHOULD work both ways. The clubs needs the bands' following to come in to generate money, the bands needs the clubs' customers there to play for new potential fans. Overplaying an area can dry up your following. We spread our shows out in Boston and try to make a big deal about them when they come up. The unfortunate thing is that some clubs and promoters will put it all on the bands in the form of selling tickets, like what Jeremy C said. A perfect example is a couple of years ago we were asked to open for The Misfits. We were asked to sell tickets, we said ok. At the time, we were also entering the final round in Emergenza, which led to the big Germany trip. (look up one of my first threads or my myspace to read that story if you haven't) We did The Misfits thing to put it in our press kit and our main concern at the time was getting people to the finals at Emergenza. We sold about half of the tickets that were given to us to sell. The face value was $25, $20 of which we needed to cover for every ticket, we did not charge our friends the extra $5 so we made no money. We even bought a few pairs to give away as raffle prizes at a party we threw to sell Emergenza tickets. When we turned in the money, the promoter pulled me aside and accused me of saying we sold all the tickets. The guy flat out put words in my mouth and never did he once utter the words that we had to sell all the tickets. He moved our set to an earlier time as punishment, big whoop. The promoter did not promote his own show and if you ask me, picked a terrible 21+ venue outside of Boston. Had he promoted the show, not pinned it solely on the 3 local bands, and picked an all ages venue in Boston, I have no doubts the show would have sold out. IT'S THE MISFITS! Kids will go just to buy their merch!!! He told us what he had to pay The Misfits, $EVEN GRAND! And they were terrible! It sounded like pure $h!+ I am all for the spirit of punk rock but have some respect for the music. There was less than 25-30 people in a room that could easily fit 800 when The Misfits played and probably 150+ in the room for us and the band after. In the end, we sold some cd's, shirts, some tickets to the finals, used needle nose pliers to retrieve the ear plugs that were impacted deep within our ears, and get to put in our press kit that we "shared the stage" with the "legendary" Misfits. lol. I hate selling tickets, I am not a salesman. I play bass. So......on that note....I have some tickets to sell for this New Years Eve show. ROFL! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA LOL! Carvin Bunny Brunel Signature 5 String, ESP LTD 5 String, Ampeg SVT3, Ampeg 4x10 and 1x18 www.captaincutthroat.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davio Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 So......on that note....I have some tickets to sell for this New Years Eve show. ROFL! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA LOL! How much? Bring some tonight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric VB Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Good points, all. To really understand what's going on (at some venues) you have to look at this purely from a business standpoint. A struggling bar is trying to keep its head above water. What to do? They need more patrons! But they can't just snap their fingers to make a crowd appear. They need to advertise! So how do they advertise their bars? Radio, TV, newspaper, direct mailing? That can be expensive and there's no guarantee they will reach their target audience. What they really need is targeted advertising! Now, at the same time, they probably have (or have had) bands pestering them to put on shows. So they know bands are at least willing business partners. But don't bands have mailing lists? Lists of fans that like to go to bars and stay for several hours at a time and drink? By golly I think they just found the answer to their targeted advertising problem! They're not paying you to entertain anybody. They're paying to use your band's mailing list to advertise their bar. It doesn't matter what you sound like as long as you draw. Remember, your job is to fill seats with people that will spend money at a bar. That's all. They'd just as soon pay a knitting group to host a knitting party as long as all the ladies (and perhaps gents) drank all night long. That's not to say that there aren't venues out there that really are looking to provide quality entertainment to their regulars. These places do exist! The hottest recent trend in this area is the solo or duo act. Why? As b5pilot mentioned the number of people in this town with disposable income has been decimated. Yes, there are still bands that can fill a venue, but they cost top dollar and may not be cost effective for smaller venues. So in order to scale back the cost of advertising (hiring a band's mailing list) to fit the potential clientele they scale back on the number of musicians. A duo is going to cost about half that of a 4-piece, so if they only fill half the bar it works out. The solo guys are great for weekday nights because they cost the least. (Yes, some people will actually come out to hear someone sing and play guitar along to pre-recorded backing tracks.) As far as I know venues also expect karaoke hosts to draw. DJs I'm not sure about but I'm guessing it's the same. You're not competing with these guys in terms of entertainment value; the yard stick is who nets the venue the most profit. Again, these one man shows are best for weekday nights (unless the venue is a dance hall with clientele expecting a DJ). Should venues do their own advertising? Sure. But I recently asked some 20somethings how they choose where to go out at night. They all said "word of mouth". (Or "word of text messaging" these days.) Someone in their social circle suggests a place and they all go there. But how can a venue get hooked in to those circles? (Or a band, for that matter?) Other than old fashioned face-to-face networking we just have things like MySpace and Facebook. I mean, wouldn't it be ideal if you could just broadcast a short text message ad to every 20something living within 20 miles of a venue? (Of course if that were possible I'm sure I'd get an unending stream of "little blue pill" ads on my cell, and I could really do without that.) So it does make sense that a venue should advertise via a band's mailing list. (IMO it shouldn't be the only advertising.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lug Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 I had a huge following once. I had no idea people could throw a torch or a pitchfork that far. You can stop now -jeremyc STOP QUOTING EVERY THING I SAY!!! -Bass_god_offspring lug, you should add that statement to you signature.-Tenstrum I'm not sure any argument can top lug's. - Sweet Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruuve Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 ...The exception is two women we refer to (publicly) as the "Stonefly Girls" - Marie and Barbara. They found us by accident a few years ago, and have been to almost every gig since. They post on our board, send us venue suggestions, and have been great. They just love the music, and have been a real gift! Tom You need about 98 more of these and you could get booked at any small-to-medium venue. Dave Old bass players never die, they just buy lighter rigs. - Tom Capasso, 11/9/2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip6 Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 Lets all not forget another concept from the bar owners point of view: Don't drive people out of the bar! We have a following,but so do the bars. We play this one big place about every 6 weeks, and though we don't see the all same people at other venues, when we play this joint, they are always there. So we're doing something right. They like country, and we do a bit (Eagles counts as country these days, right?). So the boss is happy, we're happy, everybody makes a buck. For the winter season, we're established at one venue at a ski resort, playing to tourists, a different crowd every week. We just have to be good, pump out a dance groove, sound great, and keep everybody happy. Easy!(yeah,right) It is very hard to get ahead in a major city without doing major promotion (and, yes, without a lot of support from the bars). Word of mouth seems to matter most, but we have the luxury of not worrying too much about it. Eventually, we think word will get out, and demand for us will grow. We have the support of one club owner who books us at his place in the suburbs, but won't yet book us downtown. We're not yet "proven". "It's all in the fingers, man"-Jaco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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