Listening to our recorded gig. We stink

[Ross Brown]

I recorded Friday nights gig. The recording was not too bad. I could not run the guitar direct so I miked it and got a little bleed through from the drums, not too bad. I put a mike above the drum kit and that was not too bad either. The bass and vocals were direct.

 

I was dumbfounded by the difference between my memory of the gig and the recording. Maybe I should have miked the crowd too. The bottom line, I guess, is that we sound fairly good all together, we are playing just about every weekend (sometimes more), we are rebooked everywhere we play and the places are packed and folks are dancing, but holy crap we suck.

 

When I isolate each part I learned that we all suck a little bit. As for the bass lines, there are notes in there that when listened to as an isolated track, are junk. They are muddy and I am not convinced they are in the same key that the rest of the song is in (although, they are quick passing notes). When I bring up the rest of the band, the bassline is good.

 

The guitar player is a master, in my mind. I love playing next to him. When I isolated him, there was definitely some junk. Mostly holes in the music here and there. In the mix, sounds great.

 

One (of many) example of the strangeness was the song "Lie to Me" Jonny Lang. I think we tear this one up. It has real grit. The bass line I put to it is brilliant... When I play it back it fizzles. Nothing special. What the heck?

 

Drummers played a decent gig. Just boring.

 

Vocalist sounded pretty good either way.

 

Anyone care to share their expertise? What is your experience when it comes to going back to listen to live gigs. I wanted to puke.

 

[TimR]

You're listening too hard.

 

90% of live music is the performance. The music has to sound fairly good though, but you are probably listening for mistakes. Listen again but in a different frame of mind and try to pick out the good bits.

 

Are the bass notes completely wrong (out of key) or are they just not what you thought you played?

 

It sucks being a performer, you hear every "wrong" note, sometimes even wrong notes that are not actually "wrong", just not what you expected. I find I used to hear wrong things and critique every live band I went to see. I have given it up now. I just try to enjoy it.

 

I went with a big group of people to see a band in a pub and they thought the band we saw were rubbish. the bass player, drummer and guitarist where the tightest and best sounding I have heard in a long while, but the singer was just OK, wasn't out of tune, but his heart wasn't in it. The rest of the band played their socks off, but my friends only noticed how bad the singer was.

 

On the opposite scale, the same group of us saw a band that really sucked, bass player wrong notes everywhere, the guitarist was drunk, the drummer kept missing beats, but the singer was right up in your face and very good. My mates loved it, but it was crap.

[Phil W]

Yes, it's what it sounds like together that matters, not the individual parts. Listen to the entire mix and identify what does and doesn't work from that.

 

I would recommend recording the actual room sound with a couple of mics to hear what it actually sounds like to the audience, rather than recording each part separately then mixing it.

[Ross Brown]

 

I would recommend recording the actual room sound with a couple of mics to hear what it actually sounds like to the audience, rather than recording each part separately then mixing it.

May try this...

[The Bear Jew]

You may have had the "suck" knob cranked through the effects loop while you were recording--that can sometimes make a big difference.

 

In all seriousness, don't be so hard on yourself and your band. As they say, you're bound to be your own worst critic. Bottom line (and you said this yourself): You play well together, you get re-booked and people dance when you play. Those are all good things.

 

I sometimes cringe when listen to some of my band's live gig recordings, too. It's natural. Playing onstage in front of people opens the door for errors and weird crap to happen. Stuff that sounds fine 95% of the time suddenly gets all wonky... the longer you play together, the better you learn to deal with such things.

 

Just keep doing what you do.

[Phil W]

In my jazz gig on Saturday I ended up playing a lot of bass solos (maybe between 12-20 as the guitarist and I were the main soloists. (It was a 4 hour gig.) Some of my solos sucked, most were OK. Some were very good. The last one I played was probably average but I swayed around a lot, shook my head like I was getting all carried away and at the end the place exploded with cheers and applause.

 

That kind of thing doesn't come across on a tape. A gig is not just music (even one at a so-called jazz venue) there's always an element of performance, communication of confidence, visuals and suchlike.

 

The trick is to get the audience to believe you're great. It's neat to listen back to your performances as long as it doesn't dent your confidence too much or make you think too much as you perform. Rather than taking an approach of identifying everything that is wrong however, it is more productive to identify what works really well, analyse why and apply some of that to other aspects of the set.

[Ross Brown]

Phil,

It was interesting to me that the crowds response did not come across the recording at all. I do agree that the performance is a big part of the show. Sometimes I think to myself, would I be comfortable with another bass player, listening to the recordings? heck no! Yet, I do think we are a good band. I also think/thought I was a good/solid bass player. I have work to do.

 

It was a real eye opener to hear just the bass, isolated.

 

I also notice that, perhaps wrongly, I am locked in with the guitarist... not the drummer. This is good good maybe (See thread about our crappy drummer).

 

Also, with these recoerdings, I can go back and remove the bass and try again, to practice.

[jeremy c]

This post is about me, but it is relevant to Ross.

 

Last night I played at a wedding with an excellent group of musicians. Of course, the six of us had never played together as a group before, had never rehearsed and were playing a wide variety of music that for almost every song, at least one person in the band had never heard it before.

 

We played swing, funk, cabaret, lite rock, bossa nova, Jewish music, Greek music and some other stuff.

 

We were a little sloppy but it was going great and the crowd was into it.

 

And then I looked out in the audience and saw a face I recognized: Lincoln Goines. He is a studio bass player in New York (originally from Berkeley) and of course is a great player. It turns out that the bride was his niece.

 

At first I was embarrassed to be playing with a slightly sloppy band in front of someone who could obviously hear it. I would be a little afraid to listen to a tape of our playing.

 

However, we went into a funk medley (yours truly sang Play That Funky Music, Superstition and Skin Tight as part of the medley which also included Lady Marmalade, Tear the Roof of the Sucker, Hot in Heere, and a few other things). A big grin appeared on Lincoln's face and he went out on the dance floor with his young son, Theo. (His wife, Mika., had a broken foot and was on crutches).

 

If we were actually making a recording, we would have rehearsed and cleaned up a few things, but we did what we were supposed to do and the crowd was extremely happy.

 

And that's what it was for you as well, Ross.

 

 

[Phil W]

Great story Jeremy! Lincoln Goines?! Wow . . . that might have freaked me out!

[Ross Brown]

I guess you never know who is listening... even worse when you do know!!

 

Thanks JC.

[Rocky McDougall]

IMHO A "great" band may be made up of mediocre "individual" musicians. Some of the worst bands I have heard have been made up of superstars. A good band must be comprised of musicians who can compliment and blend with each other. The finest "band member" bass player I have heard never plays any solo parts. He is a great supporter of the song/mix but can't play solo.

Rocky

[yourlord]

To be honest, I've listened to my bass lines soloed when I was playing along with the band and without fail I pretty much hate the way it sounds, but when you put the band in the mix it's magic.

 

I think this is normal, especially in energetic music, you'll get pumped up while playing and this leads to a little more "slop" in your individual sound, but it's so locked into the groove with the rest of the band that it just sounds natural and the way it was meant to be.. I play a lot cleaner when solo than I do in the mix..

 

Another phenomenon I run into is bass lines that, by themselves, make almost no sense and sound totally random. One of our new songs called "Rage" has, instead of a "normal" guitar solo, the lead guitarist and I playing a harmonized solo together. When you play my part of the solo by itself you'd think a drunk monkey was throwing a bass down a flight of stairs, but it just fits in with the guitar harmony when played together..

 

My wife hates it though so it may just be me..

 

 

[b5pilot]

Don't beat yourself up too badly Ross. The crowd loved it and that's what really matters. Now take this as and opportunity to correct some of the goofy notes and other performance problems. Set up a practice with the guys and go over the recording with them. Don't be too critical with them or yourself though. Everybody has their little brainfarts now and then.

[EddiePlaysBass]

I know it's been said before, but indeed you are just listening for the wrong notes and mistakes. I think it's typical of musicians. Both my dad and I have a hard time seeing live bands, because we'll usually pick out the wrong and bum notes and it takes away from enjoying the experience. Like TimR, I try not to do that anymore but rather just listen to the whole of the music rather than the sum of the parts.

 

And hey, remember the John Entwistle thread Erik once started because he wanted to have the same tone ? It had the Ox's bass track isolated and within 2 posts everyone was going on about how sloppy his isolated playing sounded, as opposed to comment on the tone - the actual reason for the thread It's a bass player thing :grin:

[DavidMPires]

You are listening too hard, chill out enjoy yourself and think of that recordings as a group thing not as your bass lines his guitar solos, that's why you are in a band because all together makes for a greap soup.

 

Chill out

[Big Daddy from Motown]

You have a very valuable tool for self examination.

 

Use it, analize every tune looking to serve the song and not your ego.

 

Then record the next gig and the next one after that untill it starts to sound great to you.

[Tom Capasso]

You have a very valuable tool for self examination.

 

Use it, analize every tune looking to serve the song and not your ego.

 

Then record the next gig and the next one after that untill it starts to sound great to you.

I agree that this is a tool. You as a player can improve using it. If you play "better" (and I'm not willing to say you didn't play well), it won't hurt the band.

 

It's a tool for the band as well. Every time you work together as a band to tighten up a small part of one song it helps everyone focus and be tighter throughout.

 

I also agree that you should consider recording the band in the room. We have some video (with a condenser mic) that sounds surprisingly good (in that you can hear most of the instruments). While it's just a few songs, I've seen a few opportunities where I was a bit sloppy, and a few of those odd band moments.

 

To everyone's point about it being a performance - I agree. Some of those recorded moments where the band is ever-so-slightly out of sync for one beat - that's only recognized by musicians (and even they move on if the rest of the song goes fine).

 

...that's why you are in a band because all together makes for a greap soup.

Damn - that means that one guy on this forum really plays some astronomically-mixed stuff in his quantum soup.

 

Tom

[Ross Brown]

You have a very valuable tool for self examination.

 

Use it, analize every tune looking to serve the song and not your ego.

 

Then record the next gig and the next one after that untill it starts to sound great to you.

 

I thought it would stroke my ego. I learned a lot just there.

 

I think it will be interesting to see how much and who in the band wants to listen to the recordings... will be very telling...!

[Griffinator]

I was dumbfounded by the difference between my memory of the gig and the recording. Maybe I should have miked the crowd too. The bottom line, I guess, is that we sound fairly good all together, we are playing just about every weekend (sometimes more), we are rebooked everywhere we play and the places are packed and folks are dancing, but holy crap we suck.

 

I watched the July 4th video of our band, and it reminded me why I quit.

[Tom Capasso]

I thought it would stroke my ego.

Certainly your (or my) wife won't do that!

 

I have musical narcissism, so I always think we sound pretty good. Even when I hear things I (or we) have to correct. Maybe you shouldn't be as deaf to things as I am, but keep your chin up and remember how far things have come, and that you haven't listened to yourself live before.

 

Tom

[Ross Brown]

I thought it would stroke my ego.

Certainly your (or my) wife won't do that!

 

 

Tom

 

Yea, she just made a face. But we rehearse at my house so she has heard every song a millions times before. She tells it like it is but she too says that I am the only one (except her) that hears the bad stuff during a live gig.

[Eric VB]

I thought it would stroke my ego.

Certainly your (or my) wife won't do that!

 

 

Tom

 

Yea, she just made a face. But we rehearse at my house so she has heard every song a millions times before. She tells it like it is but she too says that I am the only one (except her) that hears the bad stuff during a live gig.

For every compliment I receive my wife has ten, uh, "negative critiques".

[Eric VB]

Both my dad and I have a hard time seeing live bands, because we'll usually pick out the wrong and bum notes and it takes away from enjoying the experience. Like TimR, I try not to do that anymore but rather just listen to the whole of the music rather than the sum of the parts.

Yes, I too used to do this. In fact at one concert I went so far as to stand right at the edge of the stage, my arms folded, staring intently at the band. Kind of daring them to prove that they were worthy of everything they had accomplished that I hadn't. (Did someone say "ego"?) It wasn't much fun for me; in retrospect I can't imagine the band appreciated it, either. Finally somebody said something that changed my attitude and I -- and the band, I'm sure -- went on to enjoy the rest of the night.

 

One thing that really helps take your mind off super-analyzing the music is to dance to it. After all, isn't that why most of us are on stage, to get people to dance? Then when we're in the audience it makes sense that we should be dancing, too.

[Eric VB]

Back to Ross, I just have to ask: have you spent any time recording in a studio?

 

We practice our hindside off before going to the studio so we have our parts down cold. It doesn't matter. There's always more than one take.

 

And if you've ever had the joy of recording in the "big room", where everybody plays and is recorded together on one stereo track, then you also know that Murphy's Law has yet to be broken. Whenever you have a good take someone else has a bad take, and vice versa. [And, sadly, since the listener is more apt to recognize a bad vocal take, for instance, invariably your worst bass take makes the final recording. :angry: ]

 

If it's so hard to make a good recording when you're prepared and you're in a recording environment, then what makes you think you'd be able to make a good recording when you're focused on giving a good performance? In a bar?

 

Given your previous comments about your drummer I think you're doomed to ever have a good recording. But that doesn't mean you can't have a good performance.

 

Some performing bands do go the extra mile to rehearse as if they were going to walk into a recording studio instead of onto a stage. They drill and grill and sweat it out so they can have nearly flawless performances. Lots of work. You can have that, too, if everyone commits to it. Again, though, based on your past comments I believe there is at least one guy that won't see this through.

 

I think you should at least try to get everyone to raise their standards. Maybe the recording you made will open some eyes. Maybe.

 

It's up to you, though, whether or not you are satisfied. And it will depend largely on your measuring stick.

 

By your own account your band is already successful. Does it sound like you really need to improve the musicianship?

 

Or perhaps more realistically, how much of an improvement do you think is possible from guys that, for example, don't even practice on their own? And not to put down bar bands -- I'm in one myself -- but there's a difference in expectations from hearing someone play a local watering hole than, say, Carnegie Hall.

 

Molehill? Mountain?

[Davo-London]

None of this is helping ...

 

Davo

[Graham56]

You would have sounded so much better if you had been wearing The Shirt...

[Ross Brown]

Back to Ross, I just have to ask: have you spent any time recording in a studio?

 

We practice our hindside off before going to the studio so we have our parts down cold. It doesn't matter. There's always more than one take.

 

 

If it's so hard to make a good recording when you're prepared and you're in a recording environment, then what makes you think you'd be able to make a good recording when you're focused on giving a good performance? In a bar?

 

 

 

Good point. Yep. Been in studio. We were very prepared. We were not in a big room so we could "fix" certain parts.

 

At rehearsal last night, the band had no interest in picking apart the gig. They wanted to listen to 3 of the songs and then that was it. I guess they are better adjusted than me. I let it go. I will use the recordings to work on my bass parts since I can cut them out and try again.

[Chad Thorne]

IMHO A "great" band may be made up of mediocre "individual" musicians.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Rolling Stones! (whom I love, BTW...)