jeremy c Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Everyone should buy one of these and bring to rehearsals and gigs. http://www.hifi-writer.com/he/applianceretailer/spl-meter.jpg Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Some of you may find this shocking, but loud music has not been around all that long. I have been a serious live music lover for about 55 years, it was not until the late 1980's that Rock bands thought that loud was better. The reason for it was the frenzy effect it had on the audience. Loud music stirs people up and makes them go a little crazy. Really? You should ask anyone playing in the late 60's or early 70's about that. The Who were notorious for being stupid loud live. More accurately the PA systems got better in the 80's and your rig on stage didn't have to be so stupid loud so you could be heard. Today you just need an amp that is loud enough for you to hear yourself - the audience is usually going to hear the PA. You should also use earplug when playing loud because it is stupid to kill your hearing. Seriously stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Daddy from Motown Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Sorry but just fire the drummer and get on with the rest of your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Force Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I disagree, it's his place and he makes the rules. Do it his way or take the highway. Rocky Exactly. BTW:If you drummer cannot dial back get him a pair of these.. http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/5/2/3/255523.jpg Steve Force, Durham, North Carolina -------- My Professional Websites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted July 7, 2008 Author Share Posted July 7, 2008 Sorry but just fire the drummer and get on with the rest of your life. I know.... "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar546 Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I am learning that noise levels are a major factor in getting booked, keeping gigs, practice and the overall quality of a band's sound. This thread really drives home the importance. Thanks Ross. "The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know" by Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenstrum Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I won't say fire your drummer because it's not necessary. However, I would have a talk with him about what it means to be professional. The current band I'm in had to have a talk with the singer when his ego went WAAAAYYYYYY over the top and he almost got us into a fight with another band. We made him eat a big piece of humble pie and so far we haven't had the issue again. But if we ever do, he will be out the door so fast his head will be spinning for weeks. To me, volume control shouldn't be an issue. Anyone who is grown up will realize that people don't enjoy screaming into each others ears because the band is too loud. I know I don't enjoy doing that when I go see a band. Every bar owner should set a reasonable dB level and bands should stick to it. The whole too loud too old thing is just stupid. It's more like too loud too little intelligence... Tenstrum "Paranoid? Probably. But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face." Harry Dresden, Storm Front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 It is decibel or dB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave251 Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 100 dB is still sufficient to permamently damage your hearing if exposed to it long term. This is a HUGE issue in a town like Branson, MO. The theaters are held to 85dB in the reverberant field of the room. Anything more than 85db, according to established research, can cause permanent hearing damage. At that point....the owner of the venue is open to being sued. In reality, most "bands" can get away with playing in the 100dB range and not causing hearing damage....this is because of the varying levels during live performance. So...something to think about, and something I've learned to deal with....use SMALLER AMPS...get the drummer a SMALL kit( like a highly damped 18" kick...and 13" hi hats....). Look at it this way. For example, the typical Celestion 12" guitar speaker is capable of 101dB with ONE WATT into the speaker. So through simple calculation of 10 times the power adds a doubling, or 10dB....ten watts becomes 111dB, and a hundred watts becomes 121dB. And that will kill your hearing before you turn 20. And we haven't even considered the ramifications of 4 X 12 cabs.... My solution. Use small amps for TONE, and a big pa for clean sound. Mic everything...but when you use small guitar/bass amps, you can get a GREAT drum sound with TWO mics(less leakage from the stage amps)...one for the kick, and a good overhead condenser. Use a good foldback system...that keeps the "power", at least the higher frequencies, onstage and not out into the crowd. I can cover a four piece band with an eight channel mixer...no problem. Three vocal mics, two drum mics, and three instrument channels. A pair of good 15" two way cabs, and two or three 12" floor monitors. Typically, these small cabs are all you need for those 200 seat "quiet" clubs. The club owner is right...and not simply becuase he writes the check. He knows his crowds if he has a successful business; he knows the local ordinances; and he knows what he is liable for from his insurance company. Dave Wendler Instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bear Jew Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I'm lucky, I guess, because I've never had to deal with the whole "bar owner with a dB meter" thing before... but it stands to reason, as many before me have stated, that if the guy paying you wants you to play quieter or louder or sing "Happy Birthday" to his niece, you should probably do it... It's kind of hard to believe that a grown-up person doesn't understand the concept of playing a bit softer to make the bar owner happy... it's not a difficult thing to grasp, even for a drummer. Having said this, I like to play with the volume cranked. It's fun, and it feels good. We try to get booked in places where this kind of behavior is encouraged, but if the club wants us to play quieter, we will. It's not that hard. Those volume knobs turn to the left pretty easily, and a good monitor mix will make you feel like you're playing at a stadium even if you're only on a tiny stage. And drummers who can't lighten up are full of fail. For reals. \m/ Erik "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." --Sun Tzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMPires Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 and a good monitor mix will make you feel like you're playing at a stadium even if you're only on a tiny stage. SPOT ON. I played with my amp on 1 and monitors in front of me and my bass never sounded so good. Have a word with him Ross, maybe he was just having one of them 5 days a month drummers have , maybe he will understand today. www.myspace.com/davidbassportugal "And then the magical unicorn will come prancing down the rainbow and we'll all join hands for a rousing chorus of Kumbaya." - by davio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lug Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I REFUSE to allow a venue to compromise my ART! First they want to tell you your volume, next it's "play in tune", and eventually they even want you to please the audience! I will NOT be controlled like that! ATTICA.... ATTICA...AAARRRGGGHHHHH! You can stop now -jeremyc STOP QUOTING EVERY THING I SAY!!! -Bass_god_offspring lug, you should add that statement to you signature.-Tenstrum I'm not sure any argument can top lug's. - Sweet Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted July 7, 2008 Author Share Posted July 7, 2008 It is decibel or dB. yea, I spelled it wrong.... "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natobasso Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Drummer's an unprofessional idiot, +1. Bar owner is an idiot, +1. Reasons to bitch about both are forfeit when you agreed to the gig on the bar owner's terms and failed to fire the drummer when you had the chance. I HATE being told to turn down but I do it if it makes the bar owner happy. I then start looking for a new gig or take a good long look at the volume on stage. Maybe monitors up and mains down is the answer? True pros know how to play just as well (and in time!) loud or soft. Bass is key. ---- Warmoth custom 4 string * Quilted maple top/mahogany * Maple neck, ebony board * Audere preamp; Lindy Fralin pickups * Badass bridge; Hipshot tuners. Thx Joe Mergens at Mojotone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric VB Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Maybe monitors up and mains down is the answer? Only if you mic the drums. Remember, the drummer is going to play up to the stage volume. So loud monitors = loud drummer. This works if you put the drummer behind one of those clear cages, like an isolation booth, that is popular at houses of worship. The only sound that reaches the audience is whatever the sound man puts through FOH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Brown Posted July 7, 2008 Author Share Posted July 7, 2008 Drummer's an unprofessional idiot, +1. Bar owner is an idiot, +1. Reasons to bitch about both are forfeit when you agreed to the gig on the bar owner's terms and failed to fire the drummer when you had the chance. I agree. Just couldn't help myself. Also good to share, in case someone else could learn from my experiences. "When I take a stroll down Jackass Lane it is usually to see someone that is already there" Mrs. Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natobasso Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Sorry to sound so harsh, I have to say I hate being in that situation. For some reason I feel like I've been really bad and my mom's telling me off. Bass is key. ---- Warmoth custom 4 string * Quilted maple top/mahogany * Maple neck, ebony board * Audere preamp; Lindy Fralin pickups * Badass bridge; Hipshot tuners. Thx Joe Mergens at Mojotone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RalphM Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I'm in a working band (actually 2). I like to play at a "robust" level like everyone else does. I also know how to play at meager volumes. I'm with the bar owner on this one though. His place, his rules, and by using a db meter, the definition of "too loud" is completely objective. He's not imagining that it's too loud. It's not his "opinion" that it's too loud. The db meter is objective and scientific - it's either above or below a certain decibel level. If your drummer cannot control his volume and purposefully does things to antagonize your employer-for-the-evening then he's a liability and does not display any sort of professional attitude. One of my recurring gigs is to be part of the host band for a weekly open mic night. It is practically a trademark of the wannabes, amateurs and other "pretenders" who show up to play at an inappropriate volume. By the same token, whenever a real professional stops by to sit in, I never have any problem with their volume or asking them to make an adjustment. They are gracious and cooperative and that's part of what makes them a professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yourlord Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I've never run into this issue. At everyplace I've played, being loud was expected of you.. If it was really an issue we could turn down, but honestly, I just wouldn't book the show.. Feel free to visit my band's site Delusional Mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowtones11 Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I have a no drummer over 150lbs. rule. That seems to help with the volume. The drummer with the most dynamic ability I've every played with had a very extensive resume as a violinist. What a freakin pleasure it was playing with that guy. Great time and ears. John O'reilly Jr could swing hard. "It takes an awfully good drummer to be better than no drummer at all." Steve Millhouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b5pilot Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 a good monitor mix will make you feel like you're playing at a stadium even if you're only on a tiny stage. That leads me to a pet peeve when I hear other bands. The mix. One of the reasons a band will seem louder than they really are is for some reason they kick the mids up to high and the whole mix sounds like a big transistor radio. Mids are, as I'm sure you all know, what sound really harsh to people especially older people. Its funny but when bands back down on the mids the loudness complaints go away. We usually get complements on our mix for that reason. We sound full and yet people can still talk. Bar owners love it. Lydian mode? The only mode I know has the words "pie ala" in front of it. http://www.myspace.com/theeldoradosband Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave251 Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Alot of the problems with "harsh" sound is distortions coming from the horns in the PA. The lower the frequency the horn is asked to reproduce, the more the horn distorts the sound...I'm not talking "clipping" distortion--which is an amplifier artifact--but lower mid band harmonic distortions that occur in the crossover region of the horn. I will typically pull the slider in my PA graphic down that resides in the crossover region. This really helps reduce the honkiness and harsh tone from the PA...or monitor... Dave Wendler Instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumpelstiltskin. Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 if i owned a bar and were really particular about the sound, especially the volume, i'd invest in a PA. i am regularly surprised by the number of bars that offer live music and don't even have PA. that said, i usually play at a reasonable volume and can turn down whenever asked, though that has only happened when playing with a soundman who didn't want any stage volume in the main mix. i couldn't hear myself at all next to the acoustic drums, but he was still asking me to turn down. the bar owner has a right to ask you to play to a level or turn down, but would it really kill some of these people to do their own due diligence? robb. because i like people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 The lower the frequency the horn is asked to reproduce, the more the horn distorts the sound... What kind of crappy speakers are you using that have crossover points that demand the horn reproduce sounds it's not designed for? A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bear Jew Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 You're not designed. \m/ Erik "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." --Sun Tzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b5pilot Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Alot of the problems with "harsh" sound is distortions coming from the horns in the PA. The lower the frequency the horn is asked to reproduce, the more the horn distorts the sound Yeah that may be. We play a circuit of small bars where the bands own the PA, usually undersized, with no soundman and it's usually the guitarist or lead singer that sets the sound and where do they go? Straight to the mids so they can be heard. All I know is is they usually sound pretty tinny. Lydian mode? The only mode I know has the words "pie ala" in front of it. http://www.myspace.com/theeldoradosband Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlrush Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 The drummer must live on Jackass Lane. Visit my band's new web site. www.themojoroots.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcr Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 How about this: 1. Fire drummer.2. Replace.3. Contact venue. Explain that you take the issue so seriously you've changed personnel over it.4. Get back paying gig. Worth a shot. You need to do 1 & 2 anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 How about this: 1. Fire drummer. 2. Replace. 3. Contact venue. Explain that you take the issue so seriously you've changed personnel over it. 4. Get back paying gig. Worth a shot. You need to do 1 & 2 anyway. Listen to this paleface. He wise beyond years. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brocko777 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 1+ to bumps comments.... barowner... OWNER <--get it?turn down/play lighter or jam out in your garage.Wonder what dB Geddy's rig is putting out http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/tours/04aug11_gedsrig.jpg Don't have a job you don't enjoy. If you're happy in what you're doing, you'll like yourself, you'll have inner peace. ~ Johnny Carson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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