Bar owner with a decible meter

[Ross Brown]

Played a bar last night. The owner had a decible meter and said keep it down. The guitar, me and the vocalist all turned down. The owner kept telling me that it was the drums that was putting us over. Could not get the drummer to play quieter to save my life. Told him to try real hard, sneered at him, guitarist sneered at him. We made him duck tape his snare head, finally put a towel on snare with duck tape. He seemed to work around it and got louder than ever. He brings a huge (loud) snare and a 28 inch bass drum everytime. He has 7 other drum kits to choose from. We know that this bar has a sound issue with the neigbors. He asked if he should have his wife bring his brushes. I said yes. Turns out he was kidding.

 

What I learned:

1) next time a bar owner has a meter and wants us to play quieter, I will just say we can't and then offer to pack up and go home.

 

I was irritated because:

1) the drummer made a unilateral decision to play loud. If he is loud, we are loud.

2) the bar books loud rock bands and then tells them to play quiet. We are not nearly the loudest band out there. Not even close.

3) we asked the drummer to play quieter and he did not.

4) our drummer has no dynamic ability (no news, just wanted to say it again).

 

Needless to say we won't be going back. Owner cancelled our next gig. I was glad we got paid without a fuss. This was a fairly good paying gig.

 

What decible level do you play at (rock band in a bar)? He put a 100 decible limit on us. We could do it failry easily. The drums put us in the 106 to 108 range.

[Chewbubba]

Yeah, it's frustrating when the drummer can only play LOUD or LOUDER. And I've been on the receiving end of some dB meter battles too...

[moot]

The bar owner you describe is an a-hole Ross. Does he want a rock band or a freakin juke box?! Get real.

I applaud the drummer. He was making a statement and good on him for it. But if he can't play under 100 db with towels on his snare he really has dynamics issues that need to be addressed.

 

I would imagine that the bar band easily goes over 100-110 by the 3rd set. People get lubed, the kick and bass get louder, the guitarists finally turns up - it's a natural progression.

In 30+ years of playing clubs I have never seen a decible meter. I/we have been asked to turn down and have complied but to have some sour-faced jerk-wad stand there and tap a decible meter while glaring at center stage is rediculous. I would be tempted to suggest a moist, smelly new home for the meter and then quietly pack up and leave.

 

At least you got paid though.

 

 

[Rocky McDougall]

I disagree, it's his place and he makes the rules. Do it his way or take the highway.

Rocky

[picker]

That clown can't cooperate, and that makes him detrimental to the band. Find another drummer. Soon.

 

If the bar owner is having problems with his neighbors over sound levels, he's not just being a pain, he's got to deal with it. Either work on it with him or quit booking there.

 

Life is just too short to have to put up with idiots, for you or him.

[DavidMPires]

At our high profile gig we got told to turn down and we did, my amp had the same volume as I play at home. On our last pub gig, we were playing outdoors and mate told us he was able to listen to us 2 miles distance.

 

we are loud, but if we are told to turn down, we do as we are told, our guitarist can be a bit dificult but after a bit of wording he gets there.

[Ross Brown]

Yes, the bar owner was an a-hole, but it is his bar. In PA the liquer control board can (and does) fine bars and shut them down. He has (according to him) been getting warnings. The drummer is from Maryland. We tried to explain to him what was going on. He did not get it or care.

[Griffinator]

Friday night we had a near-disaster playing a Moose Lodge over the volume issue.

 

1) We brought WAY too much PA for this gig. Pair of 18" subs and their associated amps? Not necessary. Could've saved our backs some misery to leave 'em home.

 

2) Sound check at 3:30, I went to the opposite side of the 100 foot long room and said, without hesitation, "we don't need to mic the drums" - we mic'ed the drums anyway.

 

3) Sound check continued - people were COVERING THEIR EARS at the place. Bartender says "they'll shut you down if you're this loud tonight" - Lead vocalist gets all belligerent "fuck that, we're a rock band"

 

4) I showed up at 8:00 (we were skedded to go on at 9) and spoke with the night bartender - she repeated the same mantra, very nicely, "seriously, if you guys blow the roof off, it'll clear the place, and they'll never book you again"

 

So I took action. Couldn't convince lead guitar boy to shut the subs completely off, but I cut them way the hell down. Muted the drums out of the mix completely. Drummer and I broke out the duct tape on his kit. Guitar amps were muted out of the mix as well, and we reconfigured the front end of the set list to be more laid back (we were going to open with "Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love" followed by "Communication Breakdown") to give the crowd a chance to get used to us and make it easier for the drummer to lay back and not play so aggressively.

 

Much grumbling and gnashing of teeth from the band, but it worked like a charm. Stage volume was a bitch, because singer also plays rhythm, and doesn't have enough sense to turn his amp down onstage - but at least the crowd could handle the volume long enough to get "lubed" (good catch phrase, Matt! )

[Griffinator]

He did not get it or care.

 

Then he doesn't care enough to keep his gig as your drummer. Fire him.

[RHINO_ROB]

Let him know that it is his fault and nobody else's why you will never be playing in that club again. It may suck to have to control your volume but the gig paid.

 

You all as band members asked him to control his volume. He did not. It seems he did everything to spite you. It is very disrespectful to you and your band mates. Even if he did not like it he still should have complied and just said after the gig that he no longer wishes to play at that venue.

 

His response was just juvenile

 

 

 

[fingertalkin]

I don't understand the need to play so loudly.....rock or not. I was big into car stereos when I was younger. It took me a long while to figure out that louder was not better.

 

The reason for powerful amps is to reproduce a pure sound at low volumes. For those that say they can't get their tone until the volume button hits a certain level means that they are distorting something.

 

Your drummer was being a douche. The bar owner has a responsibility to his neighbors as we all do. The band has a responsibility to the patrons....and themselves to keep the volume down.

 

Obviously, room size and the placement of people have a lot to do with it. I bought a box of earplugs and put them by the tip jar so people can get them if they want.

[Ross Brown]

I wish it were easier to fire people.... This is still the same guy that ain't so good... (see previous threads). I suppose it is my fault that this happened. I should clear him out... I am a puss.

[Griffinator]

I wish it were easier to fire people.... This is still the same guy that ain't so good... (see previous threads). I suppose it is my fault that this happened. I should clear him out... I am a puss.

 

Damn. Same guy?! Yes, you are a puss. Get to it, Ross, before he costs you more money.

[Rocky McDougall]

Hot rodders used to say, "If it won't run, chrome it" I think far too many bands can't play well so they play loud.

Rocky

[TimR]

Talk to the drummer. Tell him how you feel. You are busting your ass off getting gigs for him and he is not being appreciative of your work. Tell him if it happens again, friend or no friend, he will have to find a band regularly giging in stadiums as you will be looking for a new drummer.

 

Deal with him one on one without the rest of the band around so that he doesn't get deefensive and argumantative. Tell him you have the backing of the rest of the band. Assuming, of course, that you do.

[b5pilot]

Hey Ross, with all those drum kits could he trade one in and get an electronic set. They've really improved and he can beat the snot out of it and still be quiet. also mixing issues through the PA will be a breeze. We had a similar problem with our drummer. He's not a hard hitter but he has a loud snare and a 24" kick. Some of the bars we play at are small and the sound carries. We deadened the drums (Taped the snare and put a blanket in the kick) and put drum triggers on them. They are just loud enough to hear them onstage but through the Pa they sound massive - but quiet. Of course if he is stubborn and doesn't want to help then he might not be a team player and like others have said look for another drummer or don't play at small clubs.

On the DB meter issue. We played a bar with a similar problem. Every time we or any other band played there the cops would show up and say someone complained that we were too loud. It turns out the local cops had some kind of vendetta towards this bar. The owner of your bar apperently has some issues with somebody in the area that they need to resolve, or maybe he needs to switch the kind of entertainment they have. Any bar owner that has to resort to using a DB meter has some kind of problem.

[...]

I've played to the db meter before. If you are a professional you oblige the venue and turn down. If you want to get paid you oblige the venue and turn down. If you want to get invited back you oblige the venue and turn down.

 

If the owner has a db meter and a hard limit on volume you need to honor it. Every time Ive heard of or seen this done in person it was for a good reason. Like neighbors who complain if the music gets too loud. Even if the reason is just the bar owner wants it no louder than 100db" you need to honor that if you want to play HIS F-ING PLACE. He owns it, hes paying the bills, and you have a choice to play there or not play there.

 

And finally: Fire your asshat of a drummer. It sounds like that clown shoe just cost you a gig at a place you did want to continue playing at which paid well.

[jeremy c]

I've played in two clubs that had db meters. They had them connected to spotlights when you the band goes over a certain limit, white lights shine in your eyes so you'll know.

The first club was in a beautiful location where a loud band would disturb a lot of people in multi-million dollar homes. We used to joke that if the light didn't come on during your solo, you weren't into it. Later they switched to a system where no one brought amps. You plugged straight into the house pa system and the controls were locked up.

 

I still play ocassionally in the other club with a meter. It's hard to hear across the stage, so bands turn up. But I've been in the audience many times and the club is right about the limit. You can be plenty loud before the light goes on. If it's on all the time, no one in the room can talk. (that means no drinks can be sold).

 

Playing at wineries (which I do a lot of), there are often extreme sound limitations. You could say that you won't turn down, but on the other hand my five piece band is getting somewhere in the range of $3000 a gig. If they don't want to hear us, we can live with that.

 

The club should have told you about the sound limitation when you were originally booked, not when you got there. Then you could either choose to not do the gig or you could hire a replacement drummer who would play at an appropriate volume.

 

"We're rock stars, we don't do that". Get over yourself.

 

At the height of the career of Guns and Roses, they were often late getting on stage, which meant they were late getting off stage. That meant that the entire staff of the Coliseum had to be paid union overtime, sometimes the commuter train had to run late, and the band ended up owing money to the promoter on a sold-out show because of it. But they were rock stars.

[b5pilot]

Perhaps I has a little too harsh about my comment. What I was tring to say is is that the owner has a reason for needing that meter. So if you want to play there then you have to honor his wishes or don't play there.

[Ross Brown]

Hot rodders used to say, "If it won't run, chrome it" I think far too many bands can't play well so they play loud.

Rocky

 

Yep. I agree. I do hope that I can play well without being loud. I believe I can. The guitarist can too. Could have been a good musical experience.

[Eric VB]

If you are a professional you oblige the venue and turn down. If you want to get paid you oblige the venue and turn down. If you want to get invited back you oblige the venue and turn down.

A lot of this kind of sentiment, but Bump came closest to my view.

 

A band is a business. You can't operate a business by not paying attention to your customer's needs.

 

An analogy would be you got an order for a set of tires for a small econo box car. Your customer got 3 tires like he wanted and one giant tire for a monster truck that he simply could not use.

 

For the amount of loudness you guys were over I'd guess you could have been able to bring it under the limit if your drummer was just using rods instead of sticks. Not brushes, rods. If he's too much of a "rock star" to play with rods then, yeah, he's not a pro and he doesn't belong in a pro band.

 

Here's another thought. Work out a set list that you can play unplugged (acoustic) without your drummer. You may be able to do this without changing your current set list. Go back to the venue, apologize profusely to the owner and offer to make it up with an unplugged show.

1. Bar owner gets what he wants; not too loud.

2. Bar owner gets a discount because he doesn't have to pay your drummer.

3. Your band mates that are pros get another venue to play.

4. Drummer gets to sit home and think about what it means to be a pro every time you play that venue without him.

 

This may seem like a passive way of dealing with the drummer instead of actively firing him, but it really sounds like the venue would do better with an acoustic group anyway. As an acoustic act you'll have more opportunities around town. Add your drummer back into the mix with bongos, congas, etc.

[Eric VB]

Like anyone else we have to watch our loudness no matter where we play. But we also play some small venues so it can be a challenge.

 

Like the place we played last night. Maybe 30' x 30'? Something like that. Feels more like playing someone's living room. Bar owner makes it well known that he doesn't want it too loud. Too many bands come in and don't adjust their volume down from their previous show at a bigger venue, I guess.

 

And we still bring the rawk. It just isn't as loud. They absolutely love us there. Even the owner was dancing with the patrons during the night.

[Rocky McDougall]

Some of you may find this shocking, but loud music has not been around all that long. I have been a serious live music lover for about 55 years, it was not until the late 1980's that Rock bands thought that loud was better. The reason for it was the frenzy effect it had on the audience. Loud music stirs people up and makes them go a little crazy. I guess that it good, if that is your purpose. Me, I like it nice and easy.

Rocky

[Phil W]

I'd hate to play with a drummer who couldn't play dynamics. In fact, I wouldn't.

 

If this happened to me, I don't think I'd play with the drummer again.

 

 

Unless the money was great!

[Bob Gollihur]

IME most bands play too loudly for the room. Yeah, I'm 57, which puts me deep into Old Fart category, but too loud is getting louder every year since I first gigged in the early 60's. (Back then I could be too loud with 25watts and a twelve) With the technology we have available we can sound quite good at fewer decibels. Guitarists no longer have to push amps and speakers over the edge to get the sound. The guitarists I mostly gig with use floor PODs with Bose towers. They can be loud without actually being loud.

 

Volume does not equal intensity. And ear-splitting SPLs do not improve your band's sound unless they are necessary to mask your lead singer's lousy vocals.

 

IME good (i.e. responsible) drummers can control their volume, within reason. If not, as mentioned earlier, electronic drums can save the day. I gigged steadily with a drummer who went that way several years ago, good thing because he was an explosion behind any acoustic set. He was smart enough to adopt the technology necessary to meet the needs of the band. I remember playing one place where the club was attached to a motel and the owner's son was an a-hole Sound Nazi (mostly the former). At one point during Volume Wars you could actually hear the drummer hitting the rubber pads over the amplified snare sound. It sucked, but it was a gig that we otherwise enjoyed.

 

Like it or not, we are employees. It's the bar owner's place, they make the rules. I assume the drummer doesn't make the burgers differently than the store manager wants; explain it in those terms.

 

I played several months in a restaurant/bar that was owned by a guy who gigged the area for twenty years before buying the place. He kept a firm lid on volume and was well equipped to explain to bands why they didn't need to drown out all coversation in order to sound good.

 

Musicians don't get to dictate the terms of employment unless they reach very lofty levels, and even then it's no reason for us to exchange places and become the a-holes in the room.

 

I also realize that bands can be a delicate web of fragile relationships with egos way out there on the edge. The drummer needs to give, or admit to be willing to let a sub fill in situations where someone with self-control is necessary.

[Griffinator]

The drummer in the band I was talking about, he and I go way back. He hates "laying back" - but I have rapport with him, and so me explaining that "our best chance of getting booked here a second time is laying back" registered with him.

 

I actually love having a stage volume that's low enough to communicate (I don't mind yelling a bit, but if you can't hear shit, you can't hear shit)

[Tom Capasso]

Almost every gig, we're fighting to keep it down for ourselves. We know we're loud, and we try to fix it so the audience can enjoy us.

 

We have played under volume constraints. In one case, it was downright silly. In all cases, it causes tension in the band, but we all strive to do the right thing. THEN we decide if the venue/event is one we should play again.

 

Tom

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

100 dB is still sufficient to permamently damage your hearing if exposed to it long term.

 

To quote Squidward from a Spongebob episode entitled "Band Geek"

 

"When people want everyone to think they're smart, they speak really loud. If we want people to think we're good, we should play really loud." Yes, the consequences were hilarious.

 

Anyway, none of us know if there is a noise ordinance or any of that other crap. Some places have "nuicance establishment" laws that all it takes is a handful of complaints by the neighbors to shut it down and have licenses pulled, regardless of the volume. That's how Pickaway County, Ohio got rid of their one and only "gentlemen's" club.

 

If your definition of an A-hole is to walk into my place, blow off my rules, disrepect my authority and call me out in front of the patrons and me having a problem with that, then, kids, we are all at some level A-holes.

[Rocky McDougall]

Here in San Antonio, along our "Riverwalk", we have many, many live music clubs. All of the Police have their own Db meters and they quickly give a ticket or shut down non-compliant venues. If you and your family are enjoying a walk along the river, the controlled noise makes it rather nice.

Rocky

[jeremy c]

They have decibel meters at the NAMM show, for goodness sake!

 

And lots of industry professionals are walking around with earplugs on.

 

Wait until you're my age and your ears ring all the time.

All the time.

All the time.