Michael Patrick Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Yeah, he said the L6S was like an American Motors car(for those who remember the Rambler, Hornet and Gremlin), always in the shop for one thing or another. That's why he quit using them. Ahhhh, memories... cruising around in my Mom's Gremlin with a bunch of friends, with a case of Old Style and Black Sabbath 8-tracks blaring, trying to pick up chicks... Buy Tangy's latest CD, "Sorta Like Very Ultra" The Official Tangy Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Sustain for days comes from compression. If you listen to Santana, there are no dynamics to his sound, not for 30 years, anyway. He has used a wide away of guitars, from his old SG through about every PRS you can name, with buckers and P-90s. It ain't the guitar. As far as I know, he has only used Boogies as amps. Here is the real issue.... he has a FOH sound man live, and an engineer in the studio. So you really don't know -what- he is using to get that sound, because you never really hear him sans PA or studio wizardry. I can name a half-dozen compressors that will crush without pumping, all of which are rack-mount multithousand dollar pieces. Dakking, Manley, Cranesong, Drawmer, Pendulum, Fearn, .... and that is just a start. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted December 31, 2007 Author Share Posted December 31, 2007 Last night I decided to dial in some "Santana-like" compression...and it wasn't much of a feat. I just got the Boost/Master section on my Flexi set, which gave me about 70% of that sustain (I could get more if I went with some EL34 tubes, right now I'm using 6L6 tubes)...and then I slapped my MXR DynaComp in front of the amp, going into my Multivox 201 tape delay w/spring reverb. The trick was in setting the MXR just right, so it wasnt sucking the life out of the notes, but still giving nice sustain. I could hang notes pretty easily then...and yeah, if I moved around and targeted/faced the amp just right, there were spots where the feedback would also kick in and just ride along with the sustain. I will also try it out with one of my racked studio compressors in-line off the back-end, and see how that works. I'm sure I can clean up the tone even more that way, and still get the endless sustain. Maybe even do a 50/50 blend...MXR in front and another comp on the back end? Yeah....theres not much left to the dynamics. Maybe that's why you don't see Carlos playing chords/rhythm all that much. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gifthorse Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Yeah I have never thought his tone was very dynamic. Very smooth and warm, but very uniform. At least he isn't using too much pregain. I mean it doesn't sound too soupy and small. Miro, i still believe with the right tubes in your amp you could nail that tone without a compressor. I mean if you turned your amp up to 10 and played a good les paul.. I dunno, I doubt you would have ANY sustain problems!! Seems like he uses the middle and neck pickups alot. Les pauls seem to have alot of midrange bite--sure that doesn't hurt. http://flagshipmile.dmusic.com/ http://www.myspace.com/gifthorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted December 31, 2007 Author Share Posted December 31, 2007 The hard part isn't the sustain...the hard part, or nailing Santana's sustain, is how to keep it clean and silky smooth. Sure...if you push a nice tube amp a bit harder, it will sustain, with a lot of guitarsbut it also tends to get that crunchy, overdrive tone/sustain. If you listen to a lot of Santanas sustain...it's pretty darn clean and silky smooth, though there are some times where you CAN hear that crunchy overdrive tone. It depends on the time period, and I guess whatever combination he used at that time. Listen to some of the cuts on Moonflowerstuff like Europa or Moonflowerhis sustain tone has a minimal amount of crunchy bite, only if he really attacks the note hardbut the rest of the time its pretty darn clean/silky. Some of his very early stuff had more bite/crunch, and I believe thats when he was using the LPbut about mid-way, into the late-70s, he was using the Yamaha SG 2000 (and whatever else). Heres a live YouTube of him doing Europaits not exactly the same tone as on the albumbut close enough. (I actually like the tone he has here live better). And notice his picking techniquevery unusual. Its like his barely brushing the strings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMCrTqTXYDU&feature=related miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gifthorse Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 I also think the darker tone (with tons of mids too), the more likely with a Les paul or PRS you will be able to get that effect of infinite sustain, without it converting to feedback an octave or 2 higher. http://flagshipmile.dmusic.com/ http://www.myspace.com/gifthorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuben Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 That's not what he had on his web site for the past four years or so....maybe longer. He uses Mu-Tron Wahs, and a Ibanez Tube screamer, along with that custom amp switcher. I can remember there being any other effects. I've actually seen pics of his pedals...again, it used to be on his web site. Also, I remember Carlos himself, in an interview discussing the Tube Screamer, and comparing all the reissues, and about how his tech guy has bought up all the old Mu-Tron wahs that they could find. Don, My link was the next page of the link you posted. I know he uses a Wah. I heard him at a benefit about a year ago playing Europa with the ending lead all thru a Wah as I have always heard it. No matter what he uses or has used, he has always had fantastic tone and feeling. He can hold a note longer without feedback than anyone I have heard. (Opinion) I do know from studio work, playing thru multiple amps can give you a plethora of mix tones. Some of the Studio guys here might help out but I always thought that multiple amps feed off each other. I do know a couple of guitar players who have bought a handful of classic pedals. I own 2 original tube screamers. Fred Tacket of Little Feat plays with 2 originals in line. He has a guy in LA that rebuilds them with period parts. I had one of mine that went bad repaired by the guy and it cost me more than the pedal! With exception of the IC, there are few parts. Anyone building original spec Tube Screams are making $$. The original chip is still available. I am getting off topic. I don't know of a classic guitarist who has stayed with his original gear. Page with his LPs maybe. I remember Santana playing a SG, Strat, the L6. I saw him in 71 with stacks of Marshalls playing a SG. All I know is that he is in my top 10 guitar players of all time. He was the first guitarist "I" ever heard play lead and rhythm at the same time. I saw him live touring ABRAXAS. Don, we both know tone Peace http://www.spotcheckbilly.com http://www.littlefeat.net http://www.bonnieraitt.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdrs Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 You got that right, Zub!! Carlos has long been one of my fav's too. He's got it!! Hey....may we sustain the tonequest for another new year!! Don "There once was a note, Pure and Easy. Playing so free, like a breath rippling by." http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=574296 http://www.myspace.com/imdrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarzan Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 Carlos is cool in my book. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=193274 rock it, i will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeloDoug Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Volume = sustain MUSCLE:91 Mesa Mk4(rack mounted)|Mesa F30|Mesa Nomad45|'78 Marshall 4x12 HEART:07 Gibson LP Std 50s Neck|86 Jackson Soloist|92 PRS Custom 24|01 PRS Singlecut|Taylor 814ce|MIM Strat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Volume = sustain?? Well, there are other factors. I have been known to play an Alvarez acoustic with a Di Marzio pickups through a little Fender Princeton (little, but a bad little mother!) at only 3 or 4 and get some cool sustain... not FOR DAYS, but nice sustain nonetheless. The hollow body instrument didn't hurt! And of course, there are always such things as sustain pedals and E-bows! Yes I do love high-volume sustain. One favorite example: Peter Green on "The Supernatural". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted January 2, 2008 Author Share Posted January 2, 2008 I think one can say that Gain = Sustain...not so much just Volume. With the right amount of gain, you can be on like "1-2" and still have massive sustain. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Patrick Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 I think in Santana's case it is a combination of volume and gain. Those Boogies he used had a good amount of gain on tap, but they won't sing like that unless he also was pushing a heap of volume at the same time. On the flip side, volume does not equal gain. I stood in front of Jerry Garcia's rig a few times, and he was incredibly loud but I wouldn't say he had a ton of gain. Very clean, but also very loud. Just for fun, I recorded an attempt at getting a Santana-like tone. Not sure I succeeded in that, but I like the tone I got... MP mangles Santana's "Europa..." It's a Les Paul straight into a DSL 50 on the red channel, with a Roland SDE-1000 in the amp's loop (for echo). Buy Tangy's latest CD, "Sorta Like Very Ultra" The Official Tangy Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Good job on that Michael! love DSL 50's!!....but then you probably KNEW THAT!! http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Patrick Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Thanks. As long as you watch the treble setting, you can get some great tones out of a DSL 50.... Buy Tangy's latest CD, "Sorta Like Very Ultra" The Official Tangy Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdrs Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Sound very good, Michael. Carlos uses Boogies AND Dumbles. Forgive me, as I'm not an electronics expert, but the Dumble amps I THINK have an on board OverDrive section. I have a couple of Fuchs Over Drive Supreme Amps, which are "Dumble Clones", and when you kick in the amp's on board OD, you can get that clean, sweet, singing, Santana sustain for days. And, it's really cool....you can make it dirty, or keep it clean. I have a ton of classic amps. But, I've never had my guitar cable in a Dumble.... They are hard to come by, and $$$$$. If you're after Santana sustain, check out a Fuchs ODS. http://www.fuchsaudiotechnology.com/ Don "There once was a note, Pure and Easy. Playing so free, like a breath rippling by." http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=574296 http://www.myspace.com/imdrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Thanks. As long as you watch the treble setting, you can get some great tones out of a DSL 50.... Yep, exactly.... I keep telling guys that bitch about DSL's, they just don't invest the time into REALLY knowing those amps.... their loss... http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trucks Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Some killer sound there MP Cool. Soundclick Myspace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesape Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Good job, Mike! In an intervieew decades ago CS said the Boogies sustain for days by virtue of an extra volume control, at least back then. Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Patrick Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Thanks, guys. It was just a little something I whipped up in the few minutes when the wife and kids were gone this morning... I've been trying to get a handle on all the DSL 50 can do. I had been spending most of my time on the green "classic gain" channel, but in the last few days I've been monkeying with the red "ultra gain" channel. For the clip, the amp was relatively loud, probably close to the volume I'd use on stage. Buy Tangy's latest CD, "Sorta Like Very Ultra" The Official Tangy Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Bill made an interesting point earlier about the general dynamic levels of CS's loudness. One might look at films & notice how often his guitar volume is adjusted. Personally I think it's those hemp speakers...they just get tripped out on certain notes & hang. d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Thanks, guys. It was just a little something I whipped up in the few minutes when the wife and kids were gone this morning... I've been trying to get a handle on all the DSL 50 can do. I had been spending most of my time on the green "classic gain" channel, but in the last few days I've been monkeying with the red "ultra gain" channel. For the clip, the amp was relatively loud, probably close to the volume I'd use on stage. KLON....Green Channel.... DONE! http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Pomerleau Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Guys, this is the real question, HOW DID Michael do this: Go and skip to 59 seconds, AMAZING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdrs Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Guys, this is the real question, HOW DID Michael do this: Go and skip to 59 seconds, AMAZING. Who's that singer with Bloomfield?? Don "There once was a note, Pure and Easy. Playing so free, like a breath rippling by." http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=574296 http://www.myspace.com/imdrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Guys, this is the real question, HOW DID Michael do this: Go and skip to 59 seconds, AMAZING. That's what happens when you put the neck p/u of a '59 Les Paul 'burst through a blackface Super Reverb turned up past 1 or 2 o'clock, especially if the guitar is somewhat close to the amp; sweet sustain & super cool tone. Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Who's that singer with Bloomfield?? Paul Butterfield, I think. Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Pomerleau Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 No, it isn't, I think it is Gravenites. Butterfield played Harp. But, man, the way he keeps that note going! BOY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otherstar Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Guys, this is the real question, HOW DID Michael do this: Go and skip to 59 seconds, AMAZING. That's what happens when you put the neck p/u of a '59 Les Paul 'burst through a blackface Super Reverb turned up past 1 or 2 o'clock, especially if the guitar is somewhat close to the amp; sweet sustain & super cool tone. Man, nothing compares to the tone you get from a cranked Super Reverb...that's the key to Derek Trucks' tone also. I have a Silverface Super, but I don't have anyplace to play it at the volume needed to get that type of tone... Turn me over, I'm done on this side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gifthorse Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Guys, this is the real question, HOW DID Michael do this: Go and skip to 59 seconds, AMAZING. Looks to me like he is using his hand/wrist as an anchor and then using the wieght of his arm to facilitate the vibrato. Thats how I do it. You know thats one approach. Some guys do a more classical style where it goes more horizontally. But with this way you can get more extreme fluctuation. Also looks like he is picking the note subtly to keep it sustaining. http://flagshipmile.dmusic.com/ http://www.myspace.com/gifthorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 ENJOY!!! http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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