Mike Gug Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 I was going to post this in the Drum Forum, but the recent activity was from July... Does anyone's drummer play behind a shield? If so, rather than blasting their monitor to levels not fit for humans, do you use isolation headphones with a monitor mix? Would a simple 2 channel Beheringer work? Have you ever done this? http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-Eurorack-UB802-Mixer?sku=631238 Thanks! My son's ears thank you. Mikegug www.facebook.com/theresistancemusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 My band, in fact both bands use wireless IEM's, including the drummer and it's a perfect solution to the monitor level problem. I've never used a hard wired system for a drummer with regular earphones. http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Gug Posted December 28, 2007 Author Share Posted December 28, 2007 My band, in fact both bands use wireless IEM's, including the drummer and it's a perfect solution to the monitor level problem. I've never used a hard wired system for a drummer with regular earphones. Wireless? He'd love the technological aspect of that. The more I think about it, there's no reason for that Behringer not to work (i.e. it has an input and a headphone jack). EarPLUGS just don't seem like a good fix. There's gotta be something better even on a budget, know what I mean? Mikegug www.facebook.com/theresistancemusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 Yes I do know what you mean, I don't see why that little mixer fed off the monitor would not work. I just can't see any drummer wanting to wear a headset for a entire night of gigging! I know ours would not do that. http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 One of our Pro Audio guys here will give you the real answer! http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 A wired IEM system would be best overall. Most drummers don't leave their throne during the gig, so movement isn't an issue. Wireless systems are relatively stable but why buy wireless now when we're still not sure what will work in 2009 when digital signals permeate the space previously allocated to analog tv which required vast amount of "white space" between signals. It's that white space that allowed low powered signals such as wireless IEMs, mics, instrument and camera audio packs as well as phones, baby monitors and the like to operate in between any local tv broadcasts. There are many questions yet to be answered when the gov't sells off licenses to these bands next year. You can use the mixer and headphones, but why? It's more to carry when the wired IEM system is a small pack with earbuds or phones. But get professional earbuds and be absolutely sure he gets used to a relatively low level. It's really easy to damage your ears with headphones by listening at high levels for extended periods. Oh, btw, the IEM systems will have a limiter built in to help protect the earphones as well as his ears. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Gug Posted December 28, 2007 Author Share Posted December 28, 2007 Oh, btw, the IEM systems will have a limiter built in to help protect the earphones as well as his ears. Hmm. Is the limiter for protection against feedback? Would the Shure E3 http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Shure-E3-Sound-Isolating-Earphones-?sku=270359 do this? I don't see it in the product description. Mikegug www.facebook.com/theresistancemusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 Oh, btw, the IEM systems will have a limiter built in to help protect the earphones as well as his ears. Hmm. Is the limiter for protection against feedback? I hate these conversations, because people could get hurt. I'd suggest a mixer and headphones or earbuds and a limiter, but you need to know how to set that stuff up so as not to damage the drummers hearing. Also, drummers tend to play too loud with ear buds in. And they complain that they don't hear the drums properly, and you end up sticking a kicker under the throne. What is wrong with a simple standard monitor? In my view, shields sound like shit... all the drums reflect into all the mics, making mud out of the mix. On top of that, they reflect everything around them to the outside, too. If the shields are there to quiet the drummer, why not just have the drummer play more quietly? Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Gug Posted December 28, 2007 Author Share Posted December 28, 2007 Oh, btw, the IEM systems will have a limiter built in to help protect the earphones as well as his ears. Hmm. Is the limiter for protection against feedback? I hate these conversations, because people could get hurt. I'd suggest a mixer and headphones or earbuds and a limiter, but you need to know how to set that stuff up so as not to damage the drummers hearing. Also, drummers tend to play too loud with ear buds in. And they complain that they don't hear the drums properly, and you end up sticking a kicker under the throne. What is wrong with a simple standard monitor? In my view, shields sound like shit... all the drums reflect into all the mics, making mud out of the mix. On top of that, they reflect everything around them to the outside, too. If the shields are there to quiet the drummer, why not just have the drummer play more quietly? Bill Great input. Well, the shields are the sound guys' wishes. At church we have multiple drummers on the same set up. Some play soft and some loud. My son doesn't play excessively loud. I'm gonna ask about taking the shields out for him. I hadn't thought about the obvious, sadly... They've got the mains cranked so loud, his little arms couldn't possibly make that much difference with his stage volume. Who knows, maybe they'll like the drum mix better(?). Mikegug www.facebook.com/theresistancemusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted December 29, 2007 Share Posted December 29, 2007 Well, the shields are the sound guys' wishes. ... My son doesn't play excessively loud. I'm gonna ask about taking the shields out for him. Well, I get where he is coming from if the drums are leaking into everything else... lesser of two evils. Not likely that anyone wants to install and take out those plexi shields. It is also not very cool from a health standpoint to have multiple people using the same earbuds. Just put a regular monitor back there. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Gug Posted December 29, 2007 Author Share Posted December 29, 2007 Well, the shields are the sound guys' wishes. ... My son doesn't play excessively loud. I'm gonna ask about taking the shields out for him. It is also not very cool from a health standpoint to have multiple people using the same earbuds. Just put a regular monitor back there. Bill We do currently have a monitor back there. It has to be loud enough to overpower the volume of the shielded drums. The shielded drums and the excessively loud monitor result in a dangerous noise level. I've sound checked the drums before and it is LOUD back there! Moving the shields aren't toobad. If I can do that and plug the monitor feed into a mixer and headphones into that (safely), that'd be an acceptable fix for me. I'd suggest headphones or personalized earbuds. My son would use noise-reduction headphones that we have right now. Mikegug www.facebook.com/theresistancemusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 We do currently have a monitor back there. It has to be loud enough to overpower the volume of the shielded drums. The shielded drums and the excessively loud monitor result in a dangerous noise level. I've sound checked the drums before and it is LOUD back there!... Too me, what you seem to be saying is that they are playing too loud. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 You are talking about those kinds of volume problems in CHURCH!!! WOW!!! http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Gug Posted December 31, 2007 Author Share Posted December 31, 2007 We do currently have a monitor back there. It has to be loud enough to overpower the volume of the shielded drums. The shielded drums and the excessively loud monitor result in a dangerous noise level. I've sound checked the drums before and it is LOUD back there!... Too me, what you seem to be saying is that they are playing too loud. Bill Yeah. It's a crowd of Junior High students and a young JH drummer. For them, it's all about the volume and at least 120 beats per minute. I'm gonna take the shield down next time and plug the drummer's ear closest to the monitor. I think that should do it. Maybe the sound guy will like it. Mikegug www.facebook.com/theresistancemusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 What are you using for monitors?? http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 You don't want multiple drummers on the same bill using the same feed for ear monitors and you definitely don't want them sharing a set of earbuds. To answer your question to me... the limiter is part of the system, not in the ear buds. In the IEM pack or, better yet, a quality limiter placed before the IEM transmitter and controlled by the monitor mixer. This, of course, requires the mixer to be competent with limiters and IEMs. Not as easy as some mixers think. Also, the built in limiter in the IEM systems are, invariably, crap. A novice or otherwise ignorant mixer will push the level to please the musician and quickly overload the limiter circuit providing distorted signal. I've seen IEM owners return systems because of the distortion, which is to say because they didn't know what they were doing and assumed the technology was a panacea that would solve all their problems at the touch of a power button. A decent limiter can cost as much as a wired IEM system. Using a plexi shield will cause the drummers to suffer. The best situation for a drummer behind a shield involves IEM's with custom molds that allow the ambient sound to mix with whatever is added in the mix plus either a subwoofer or butt kicker to push the low end. It's a complex, expensive solution and it isn't practical for multiple drummers unless each drummer buys their own IEMs and you have the additional capability to recall automated monitor mixes at the console. Otherwise all but one drummer is likely to be equally miserable. Kill the plexi idea, get the drummers to either play to the room or be axed and use a quality monitor for the drummers. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Gug Posted December 31, 2007 Author Share Posted December 31, 2007 You are talking about those kinds of volume problems in CHURCH!!! WOW!!! It's a good sized room. Also, the drums are at the back of the stage surrounded by heavy curtains, so high monitor levels back there really don't affect stage volume. The Junior Highers like it loud and high energy. Just doing a slow song the other week, I counted 5 kids (out of 150) yawning at the same time. I told the band that, unless directed, we weren't going to do any more slow songs. I'll get the drummer to play the room. Shouldn't be a problem. I'm faily certain his arms can't generate too much noise to overpower the mains. I can't axe him though... he's my son! Also, we're a seperate band apart from the "worhip team". Mikegug www.facebook.com/theresistancemusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Hey, Mike! If you don't teach him to control himself someone else will axe him later. (Yeah, yeah... I know. There are far too many bands that put up with various members needing to play too loud. ) It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 Uhmn... hoping for input from Neil and Bill, among others, here... Besides being hung-up on the visual aspect of it, is there any reason that said drum-set shields can't be made from acoustically absorbent materials, instead of the reflective transparent panels usually seen? Seems to me that this might help, and would be fine for a permanent installation in a church, where I would HOPE that egos could be parked enough in service of the service... Also- anybody heard of brushes? Not only do they reduce overall volume from the drummer, but they can sound great- in the hands of a talented drummer, anyways! I love playing with a drummer who can at least occasionally use brushes to great effect. And... can't the people who're going to be drumming in a church-setting take a little direction and try not to obliterate the mix and everyone's eardrums? Again, a modicum of humility would go a long ways here, and be expected, I would hope... Could your church possibly have a scheduled get-together once or twice a month for any and all interested in playing together for fun, where a bit more freedom and exuberance (and loudness!) could be allowed for the sake of just having a good and tasteful time playing appropriate church/worship music? You know, not a regular service, but a practice/jam/fun recreational-playing time? Then maybe those amongst that group who show that they can hang with what is needed for playing during "regular" services could also play on Sundays, etc? Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 Anyone? Anyone? Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Gug Posted January 2, 2008 Author Share Posted January 2, 2008 What are you using for monitors?? Right now, it's a cheese grater-looking Peavey 15-inch monitor. It certainly does the job. Mikegug www.facebook.com/theresistancemusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Gug Posted January 2, 2008 Author Share Posted January 2, 2008 Uhmn... hoping for input from Neil and Bill, among others, here... Besides being hung-up on the visual aspect of it, is there any reason that said drum-set shields can't be made from acoustically absorbent materials, instead of the reflective transparent panels usually seen? Seems to me that this might help, and would be fine for a permanent installation in a church, where I would HOPE that egos could be parked enough in service of the service... Also- anybody heard of brushes? Not only do they reduce overall volume from the drummer, but they can sound great- in the hands of a talented drummer, anyways! I love playing with a drummer who can at least occasionally use brushes to great effect. And... can't the people who're going to be drumming in a church-setting take a little direction and try not to obliterate the mix and everyone's eardrums? Again, a modicum of humility would go a long ways here, and be expected, I would hope... Could your church possibly have a scheduled get-together once or twice a month for any and all interested in playing together for fun, where a bit more freedom and exuberance (and loudness!) could be allowed for the sake of just having a good and tasteful time playing appropriate church/worship music? You know, not a regular service, but a practice/jam/fun recreational-playing time? Then maybe those amongst that group who show that they can hang with what is needed for playing during "regular" services could also play on Sundays, etc? OK. Lots of food for thought. As for the brushes... we use the Hot Rod sticks, but they sound so weak on the cymbals... especially the ride. I've never liked them. I have my drummer use them much to my dismay. "acoustically absorbent materials"? - What does that look like? Will my drummer be able to see his band members? Interesting. Maybe suff that comes up to like knee-level (just guessing)? Hey, if it works, I'm all (ringing) ears. How about the ANGLE of the drums and cymbals. Does facing them down to the ground quiet them, versus pointing them at the audience? Mikegug www.facebook.com/theresistancemusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 In studios where some bit of isolation is desired but the drummer will be in the same room as other musicians they use several types of absorbent barriers either spaced enough in one place to allow the drummer to see the other musicians or with a small window built in to an otherwise opaque panel. You could do something similar but it will cost a bit and probably not isolate the drummer enough and it will be a visual issue. The barrier would at least have to be a few inches higher than the toms to be at all effective and the Auralex or similar broadband absorbent material requires 4 inches or so without the structural backing. (I.e., the panel it's attached to such as plywood board.) It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Auralex sound absorption products It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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