alcohol Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 If one person believes something to the depth of his soul does it make it so? If a thousand people believe to the depth of their sould that something is true does that make it so? No, the criterion for truth lies not in one's belief or faith but in observable substantiation. It's pretty clear that Clinton's belief and Bush's belief were unfounded. It's pretty clear that claims that the WMD were indeed taken apart in the early 90's was true. The situation isn't about who believed what. It's about the physical evidence. Seems that Clinton got wrong intelligence and Bush got wrong intelligence. Now did Clinton cite any intelligence to the American people? Did he mention uranium sales from Nigeria or aluminum tubes for centrifuges? None that I recall, yet Bush, amongst other specific items, justified the claim that Iraq possesed WMD on the forged Nigerian document and the claim that the aluminum tubes were for centrifuges. Now, we know that those claims should not have been made by Bush. So that leaves a number of consideration: 1.Bush's team is incompetent in evaluating intelligence. 2.He was fed along with clinton bogus intelligence from the CIA. 3.Bush is a deliberate liar. 4. Clinton was a deliberate liar Whatever the case we have a really deep case of dishonesty to the American people. There should be widespread indignation from the American people because, whether Clinton, or England or Bush believed Iraq had WMD, ostensibly the did not for a good long time. Now either Bush admits there is a problem or he doesn't. It's his move and that's going to decide how he will be judged. The ball is in Bush's court. Looks like he's going to foul. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 "Clinton cut the budget on: CIA FBI Army SEC Navy IRS Air Force DEA Marines NSA" You don't believe in reduced spending and smaller government? We don't need more money wasted in the above. Our budget was the biggest in the world before 911. The tactics of 911 displayed for the whole world to see the impotence of huge military expenditures to deter. Which additional bomber, or fighter or missle would have stopped 911? "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wow Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 We have our difference of opinion. IF GWB can pull this off and actually put peace in the middle east(% are against him), he will be remembered as a great Prez. just as Lincoln is remembered as a great man. Lincoln was a republican you know. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Mr. Wow: [b]We have our difference of opinion. IF GWB can pull this off and actually put peace in the middle east(% are against him), he will be remembered as a great Prez. just as Lincoln is remembered as a great man. Lincoln was a republican you know. :) [/b][/quote]True, I agree. He will get my props. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raymar Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 [b]The tactics of 911 displayed for the whole world to see the impotence of huge military expenditures to deter. Which additional bomber, or fighter or missle would have stopped 911?[/b] Something to consider about 911. For the first time in history four jets almost simultaneously went off course. Standard procedure for even one jet going off course is to send a fighter jet up to find out why, this didn't happen for any of them. You shouldn't chase after the past or pin your hopes on the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wow Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 [quote] True, I agree. He will get my props. [/quote]Lets hope. :thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Hepworth Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I feel all this Bush this, Bush that is bullshit. Let the man do his job. MANY [i]successful [/i]presidents have made MANY more mistakes than Bush. Only now with the internet and supreme news coverage have these things become unacceptable. Yes, his decisions affect all of us and yes, I don't agree with all of them. Nevertheless, this country is only a shell of the patriotic country that it has been even in recent times. Look at other countries that are "well governed" (by popular standards) and you'll see the same thing as we have in America. Unfortunately, only in America does everyone feel THEY need to be their very own Rush Limbaugh (sp), or Larry King. Most people have only a small tainted peace of the whole story, but feel justified to run with that thread and tangle everyone they can in it. Personally I have had enough. I don't jump on all the politcal and religious threads because in many situations I don't know the subject thoroughly. Many other people in the same situation choose to voice their opinion without all the facts to back it up. It's always been like this, but now [i]it[/i] is also exaggerated by the ease of spread of information/disinformation. Opinions are like assholes. Mine is one of them. ;) Peace. Matt No matter how good something is, there will always be someone blasting away on a forum somewhere about how much they hate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 NE-ONE This isn't a small mistake. It's a matter of maturity. At some time in someone's life they need to understand the difference between believing to know and actual knowing. You can't make good decisions without that understanding. This is no white lie. This might not be an intentional lie. It might only be a mistake. But it's a huge mistake. It's a mistake that's equal to a lie. Bush said he knew specifically that Iraq had WMD and a nuclear program. Did Bush only know in his heart? It seems so because he hasn't given us one much to back up his knowledge. At this point even if they do find wome WMD it will appear to be by chance than by intelligence or knowledge. Bush looks like the world's biggest fool right now. This is a screw up even worse than Clinton getting found out about the things he did to Lewinski. This isn't just a failure of the flesh, this is a failure of intelligence. Invading Iraq will be something we all regret, eventually. The evidence is overwhelming. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Hepworth Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I do not have enough [i]accurate[/i] info to support or dispute anything here. My comment was more general toward the war effort as a whole, not specifically the threat or lack thereof of WMD. One thing to consider is that much that is done or said will never be dislosed to the public. Keep in mind that the the governments still have just enough of a finger on the press to keep the cat from always getting out of the bag. Again, my comments were to the whole confilict, not just WMD. No matter how good something is, there will always be someone blasting away on a forum somewhere about how much they hate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by SteveRB: [b]Hmmm. I checked both pages of this thread and I didn't see your debate or thoughtful statements anywhere. Wake me up when you have something to say Griff. :bor: [/b][/quote]Will do, Steve. WAKE UP! I was merely commenting on the state of the debate in this thread. I had no intention of getting directly involved in the discussion at hand. However, since you insist... The simple reality, in my perspective, is that someone needs to contact the Hague about bringing Bush before an international war crimes tribunal. Initiating aggression against a sovereign state without UN approval is violation of international law. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wow Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 [quote]I had no intention of getting directly involved in the discussion at hand. [/quote]Then DONT post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Mr. Wow: [b] [quote]I had no intention of getting directly involved in the discussion at hand. [/quote]Then DONT post.[/b][/quote]and who died and made you moderator? A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Just joined this thread, and will address the question at hand: Should we impeach Bush, or just jail him? I think we should strip him of all his monetary assets, start paying him minimum wage, and see where he winds up living. Or, give him a faily decent job in some securities company, put all his retirement funds in that company's stock, and when that stock crashes, and he loses all his life's savings, PLUS his job, we could see what ideas he comes up with! Or, we could dye his hair black, have him grow a beard, get his voice altered so he has an accent, change his name to Kahlil Mahmoudi, and see if anyone in his administration listens to him. The possibilities are astounding! Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnny B Posted July 2, 2003 Author Share Posted July 2, 2003 Those are good but I don't think they go far enough. First, let them be unemployed. Let's see what happens to Bush and Cheney when they try living on nothing but food stamps. Bye, bye, mansions and gold-plated limos. Next, let's put them in the position of a school teacher living on a fixed-income and they have some kind of disease requiring them to ingest even more drugs than they are already on. Let's see how they will scape together enough to pay their additional drug bills. Maybe they will run to Ken Lay or dip into the Enron scandal-ridden profits hidden in some off-shore bank accounts. On second thought, all these guys at the White House are criminals and they all should be locked up before they can do any more damage or engage in any more criminal activity. Save the World Save America Jail Bush Now! You'll be glad you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Mr. Wow: [b]Lincoln was a republican you know. :) [/b][/quote]But a republican then is not a republican now. No republican president since before Nixon was in office even remotely resembles the values of the repbulican party of Lincolns time. Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZsound Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 It is sure interesting to read what the liberal viewpoint really is. It is actually refreshing to read some of your posts that contain no sugar coating, no mincing words, no politically correctness, nothing. Just pure hatred of the current President. You guys flail and flog the current administration for all the world ills. You make mighty claims like the "biggerst liar in history" completly ignoring so many facts it makes my head spin. Do you all realize we still have troops in Kosovo? Do you know we still have troops in Korea? Do any of you know the political party of the administrations that got us into Vietnam, World War 2, North Korea? Every major conflict this country has ever had has begun under a democratic administration. Some of these conflicts have never been resolved and we still have troops in place and in harms way scores of years later. Where is the outrage? Someone brings up the FACT that Mr. Clinton, John Kerry, Joe Lieberman, the UN, all stated in no uncertain terms that Iraq had WMD. You completly ignore the point and continue to attack Mr. Bush. Some of you rant about the terrible loss of "rights" because of the current administration. However, again looking at history, after Pearl Harbor there was much the same reaction. Which Republican President rounded up all the Japanese Americans? I forget..Oh the loss of "rights". Your hatred is understandable. I developed a hatred for Mr. and Mrs. Clinton as they developed into the biggest liars, most corrupt political figures in many, many years. I kept hoping the American public would wake up and realize what danger that boob was placing us in. More troop deployments during his watch than any time in since WWII. Military moral and retirement at an all time high. Intelligence agencies subject to the "Torecelli doctrine". And on and on. Do any of you think the hatred for America got better or worse with Mr. Bill and Madeline Halfbright? I understand your hatred. However, we tried it your way for eight years. We had an administration that didn't take away any of your rights, we had an administration that kept us safe, we had an administration that only told the American people the truth..and on and on. I am so glad I don't rely in any way on folks like you liberals to protect me, my family, my neighborhood, my income, my freedom or my country. We would surely be doomed if you had your way. But hate, hate, hate. It's a great way to solve our problems. Liberals - The New Plague Mark G. "A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs "I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by GZsound: [b]Liberals - The New Plague[/b][/quote]Versus Conservatives - The Current Plague. Anybody who would not readily turn the clock back to 1999 and have our country back where we were then, vs where we are now has to be smoking crack. You cant deny the facts: 8 of the best years this country has ever seen vs 2 and 1/2 of the worst years we have seen. This is not a liberal, conservative, republican or democratic observation. Just an inarguable fact. Why can't you just deal with that? Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnny B Posted July 2, 2003 Author Share Posted July 2, 2003 Bush and Cheney have got the biggest unbalanced budgets going in world history, it's dripping in red ink. Who's pocketing all that cash? Oh, lemme see, could it be all the criminals connected to the White House? And to give welfare to the rich and to favored multi-national corporations while old grandmas are forced to eat dog food because of the Bush-Cheney spending spree. The United States has never been in worse shape than it is under the Bush Regime. In a recent article, John Dean, the former White House lawyer to the president of the United States, made a convincing case for the massive felonies being committed by the Bush gang. Bush and Cheney should share a cell right next to Ken Lay, Mike Milken, and the Savings and Loan Scandal master criminal Keating. They are all part of the same criminal enterprise. Lock 'em all up. Save the World Save America Jail Bush Now! You'll be glad you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Borland Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Has anyone read 'Stupid White Men' by MIcheal Moore. The first chapter should be enough evidence to send the f**ker away for a long time! Damn good book though, if you haven'e read it then find it read it and write some songs about it! Mark Growing old is inevitable....Growing up is optional ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnny B Posted July 2, 2003 Author Share Posted July 2, 2003 John Dean, the former lawyer to the president of the United States, has written an article of how Bush's lies to Congress and the citizens of the United States constitutes an impeachable offence and a felony. Here's the link: http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20030606.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nursers Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 These threads aren't the same without Lei de lei or Carmen C :) The Keyboard Chronicles Podcast Check out your fellow forumites in an Apple Music playlist Check out your fellow forumites in a Spotify playlist My Music: Stainless Fields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 GZ, Looking at the wrongs of the past to justify the wrongs of the present is illogical. Wouldn't you agree? Because you hate Clinton so much and you believe that Clinton was so dishonest it seems that you're arguing that we should close our eyes to the dishonesty of the present administration. Calibrate me if I'm wrong, but aren't you saying that if we could accept the dishonesty of the Clinton administration we should indulge Bush likewise? "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by nursers: [b]These threads aren't the same without Lei de lei or Carmen C :) [/b][/quote]There's always Mark G :rolleyes: I have a sneaking suspicion he doesn't like Clinton ... or liberals. Do a search, I'm sure he mentioned something to that effect in one of his posts somewhere? "That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wow Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 [quote] But a republican then is not a republican now. No republican president since before Nixon was in office even remotely resembles the values of the repbulican party of Lincolns time. [/quote]We could say this about any party. Hell the democrats used to be AGAINST blacks and their right to be equal. Have the Dems changed? Now, with that said, I think I will back off this thread some. The thread itself has dropped pretty low, no one person particular, hell maybe it was me(NOT). The entire point is this, If we want to debate then fine but when we start using propaganda(micheal moore) as sources of info for debate, then we are at a low. If you want to read the TRUTH, the buy the new book by Dick Morris. He spills the beans . ....and dont put Dick Morris in the same category with mr. Moore......one was the advisor to the President and the other MAKES HIS MONEY off propaganda and bullshit. :wave: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 When Dick Morris becomes an authority we have indeed reached a new low. "It doesn't matter what the polls say right now about the war in Iraq. When we invade, we either will or will not find what Secretary of State Colin Powell says is there. If we do not find it, President Bush will be in serious trouble. If we do, all of his critics will be." "My moneys on President Bush. He wouldn't be pushing us toward this war unless he felt he had the goods on Saddam." The first casualty of Iraq war: Liberal credibility Dick Morris July 2, 2003 Let me see, Morris is going to bet on the guy who cited forged documents to prove that Iraq had nuclear weapons. And then it seems that Dick has a problem with chronological perception or proper use of tense in the English language. "When we invade, we either wil......" The invasion is in the past Dick. What you be smokin' man? This guy is an authority? Maybe he's still angry that he got caught with a 42 year old call girl. What kind of a man hires a 42 year old prosititute? He's the source of credibility? I'd say he's got problems. I'd say anyone looking to him as an authority got problems. But is his book about Bush and Iraq or Clinton? I thought this thread was about Bush! "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franknputer Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Mr. Wow: [b] If you want to read the TRUTH, the buy the new book by Dick Morris. He spills the beans . ....and dont put Dick Morris in the same category with mr. Moore......one was the advisor to the President and the other MAKES HIS MONEY off propaganda and bullshit. :wave: [/b][/quote]What exactly is the difference here? He's making money from his book, right? :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wow Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 The difference is one was IN the White House and knows the truth about stuff that went on and the other is a WAY-left wing propaganda artist that probably throws rocks at the White House as he walks by. Alcohol, I love they way you attacked dick morris straight out of the box. You dont like what he has to say so you beat up his character, but you will defend willie and say it does/didn't matter. All I ask is that you be consistent. :wave: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franknputer Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 You know, in some states it's illegal to profit from your public service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wow Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Tell Hillary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 WOW, I didn't just attack his character, I also attacked his credibility and the condition of his mind. Doesn't character count? "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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