Dr. Ellwood Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 YEAH! Hay I know what you mean! Totally complex lyrics, deep deep meaning, obviously superior IQ in his lyrics..here's one excellent example of his writing power, a personal favorite of mine and I'm sure yours LINK: http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/tool/hush.html http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/kboruff/rolling.gif Well, what precisely is WRONG with saying "F*ck the lot of you!" in a song? Surely the sentiment enters the average mind at least once in a lifetime, so IMO it's a valid enough sentiment to express. It's a significant part of the human experience, just as much as the usual "Baby, it'll be all right, we can make it all night" mush. And it's a sentiment which, I would guess, is a lot more frequent than telling some woman that you'll make it all night long. For starters, you don't even need a woman to say it to. And top marks for not pussyfooting around or mincing words! Whether subtler shades of imagery could have been found is a pretty moot point, simply because when one feels that way, one doesn't look around for subtle shades of meaning or witty turn-arounds on a cliched phrase. You guys might not like the song or the lyrics (and I myself have never heard either Tool or the song and I'm in no rush to do either) but I can't see what's wrong with it, per se. Is it radio friendy? No. But then, so many commonplace emotions (hatred, lust, anger, depression, etc) are not "radio friendly" either. Your right Vince, it's a master piece. http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdrs Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 ...I am interested in finding a very basic, beginner level book on song structure (verse, chorus, hooks, etc.). Basically, I'm looking for a "Cliff Notes" level book about building a song. Any suggestions? What do you mean... ike AABA or ABAB etc chorus/verse construction? My own approach is generally not confined to any starting point... I might have a musical hook, I might have a lyrical idea.... but in either case, in order to make the song work for me, I have to have a driver... something to write about. If I have something that needs to be said, I say it, and how the story needs to be told determines the structure for me. I don't have cookie cutter solutions, because I find that they get stale very quickly. Bill Ah, well, yes Bill. That is EXACTLY what I was requesting. A simple cookie cutter course on simple song construction. Since I've never seriously approached writing a song, I guess it's not stale for me yet. Don "There once was a note, Pure and Easy. Playing so free, like a breath rippling by." http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=574296 http://www.myspace.com/imdrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdrs Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 You know, like this one; http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m114/mdrs1/SongwritingforDummies.jpg Don "There once was a note, Pure and Easy. Playing so free, like a breath rippling by." http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=574296 http://www.myspace.com/imdrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted November 4, 2007 Author Share Posted November 4, 2007 Ah, well, yes Bill. That is EXACTLY what I was requesting. A simple cookie cutter course on simple song construction. Since I've never seriously approached writing a song, I guess it's not stale for me yet. The Pattison book that I recommended.... I don't have the name in front of me, but it is the general songwriting book, not the 12 or 14 book set... explains that pretty well, and also explains other stuff about song layout, from a why and how perspective. (Besides helping you to get into your own voice and how to write things that matter to you.) You can also study the masters in the genere in which you are interested. How do they lay out their songs? But it all comes down to having something to say, either musically or with words. If you have that, the rest should come easy. You are a reasonably well educated fella with a command of the language, you know when you have gotten your point across and when you haven't. Some of the most interesting songs do not follow typical construction patterns, though most popular songs do. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted November 4, 2007 Author Share Posted November 4, 2007 Ahhh... there it is: "Writing Better Lyrics" purple cover. I've not gone here, but it might be a place to check out: http://www.ultimatesongwriting.com/ Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Ferrington III. Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 Your right Vince, it's a master piece. I'm not saying it's a masterpiece, just that the lyrics suit the emotion behind the song. As it is, extreme anger and frustration are rather limited emotions (hey, if you could see a way out, it wouldn't be frustration), so it's a lyrically limited song. Like I said, I've never heard the song, nor am I in a rush to do so, but I can't condemn it out of hand lyrically either. Band MySpace My snazzy t-shirt empire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 How many of you write lyrics without having any idea of what the instrumental parts will end up being. Other than a very weak idea of the meter or general style. http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fumblyfingers Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 I have thought about getting Masterwriter...it is a fairly hefty price at$290...... but that price would be nothing if it helped write a song that got on the charts, even if it only came in in the bottom of the Top 100 Adult Obscure Schmaltz charts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdrs Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 I have thought about getting Masterwriter...it is a fairly hefty price at$290...... but that price would be nothing if it helped write a song that got on the charts, even if it only came in in the bottom of the Top 100 Adult Obscure Schmaltz charts. LOL......If you hit the charts, I would request an autographed copy of the CD, if you don't mind??? What is Masterwriter?? Dish, brother. Don "There once was a note, Pure and Easy. Playing so free, like a breath rippling by." http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=574296 http://www.myspace.com/imdrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted November 4, 2007 Author Share Posted November 4, 2007 I tried an early version of it, and I see value as a PIM for song tracking stuff. but not much value as a tool to help you write better songs. Maybe I didn't look deep enough. "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdrs Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 I have thought about getting Masterwriter...it is a fairly hefty price at$290...... but that price would be nothing if it helped write a song that got on the charts, even if it only came in in the bottom of the Top 100 Adult Obscure Schmaltz charts. LOL......If you hit the charts, I would request an autographed copy of the CD, if you don't mind??? What is Masterwriter?? Dish, brother. Found it......nevermind!! Don "There once was a note, Pure and Easy. Playing so free, like a breath rippling by." http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=574296 http://www.myspace.com/imdrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 Your right Vince, it's a master piece. Yep. Ranks right up there with... "And this bird you cannot change Ohhhh no, and this bird you cannot change Lord help me, I can't change Ohhhh I can't change Won't you fly high free bird, yeah" Can I change the bird, Ronnie? I wasn't sure... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skipclone 1 Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 How many of you write lyrics without having any idea of what the instrumental parts will end up being. Other than a very weak idea of the meter or general style. I`ve done that-it`s a matter of having something to say in words, before the music. No better or worse than any other approach. Same old surprises, brand new cliches- Skipsounds on Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 When I write lyrics, I am always conscious of the number of syllables just as much as the rhymes.. of course, both are flexible! But if the underlying melody is going to repeat for the melody and the chorus (like most pop music does) you have to have some idea how it's going to be fit the melody. Of course, it's possible to write both lyrics that don't rhyme and melodies that don't repeat, if you want to. The average listener may not want to hear it, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric VB Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 How many of you write lyrics without having any idea of what the instrumental parts will end up being. Other than a very weak idea of the meter or general style. Sometimes I'll come up with a hook or song title first. Then I may flesh it out a bit with an outline or roadmap. When I fill in the actual lyrics they usually suggest the melody, both rhythm and pitch. From there it's fairly easy to add an arrangement. Going the other way 'round I find not as organic. Starting from a musical hook or chord progression can lock in the structure of the song, and may cause the lyrics to be force fit. [At least for me, since I'm loathe to change the music once I like it.] I've got one song started that is kind of developing the music and lyrics simultaneously. I came up with a riff that suggested a one line of lyrics, and that in turn generated the overall idea for the song. I just haven't had time to finish putting it together so it sits there, incomplete. As far as style, I've taken a set of complete lyrics and fit it to a melody and arrangment in one style (a 3/4 ballad), then came back and decided to change everything but the words into a country tune. New melody, new chords, and in the standard 4/4. It's more effective this way and more fun to perform. I was thinking about taking it to the NSAI-Detroit meeting tonight, but I haven't had time to practice it lately. (It's hard to find time for songwriting when you've been spending your time working on a set list of covers.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skipclone 1 Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 I keep promising myself to try a `through composed` piece, where structurally, each part appears only once. Thing is of course, it still has to be a coherent arrangement Same old surprises, brand new cliches- Skipsounds on Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Giving all this some more thought (and not sure if someone already mentioned this)... Maybe we are focusing too much on just the style/quality of the lyrics? If we view lyrics as just words or as a form of poetry...then they might not appear to be too interesting. But lyrics are directly tied to the music...and just reading lyrics on a page without hearing them sung with the music...is very much out of context. The lyrics go hand in hand with the music...and you can have very beautiful, complex, poetic lyrics...but if they don't really fit the music (or if the music doesnt fit them), or if they are "sung" in a very monotone, un-melodic style... ...then the beauty of the lyrics is kinda' lost...IMO. Also...if you have too many words...too complex a lyric, and its not to fitting the tempo and style of song, and they seem to be jammed in there and are just sorta' read over the music without really grooving in WITH the music... ...then again, the beauty of the lyrics is lost. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Yeah, but you hate challenging poetry as lyric anyway, Miro. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Giving all this some more thought (and not sure if someone already mentioned this)... Maybe we are focusing too much on just the style/quality of the lyrics? If we view lyrics as just words or as a form of poetry...then they might not appear to be too interesting. But lyrics are directly tied to the music...and just reading lyrics on a page without hearing them sung with the music...is very much out of context. The lyrics go hand in hand with the music...and you can have very beautiful, complex, poetic lyrics...but if they don't really fit the music (or if the music doesnt fit them), or if they are "sung" in a very monotone, un-melodic style... ...then the beauty of the lyrics is kinda' lost...IMO. Also...if you have too many words...too complex a lyric, and its not to fitting the tempo and style of song, and they seem to be jammed in there and are just sorta' read over the music without really grooving in WITH the music... ...then again, the beauty of the lyrics is lost. On one hand I agree with you. There are lyrics that just don't stand on their own but are perfect in the context of the music. I would argue, however, that most great lyrics do stand on their own and are simply that much better in the context of great music. I was reminded of another album of lyrics that range from somewhat abstract to entirely existential. They are lyrics from songs off the self titled, Toy Matinee album. Sheer genius, IMHO, from the late Kevin Gilbert. Some are morality plays, others just great prose. Every one is amazing (again, IMHO) both lyrically and musically. I've printed a few below, but I'd suggest visiting Kevin Gilbert's official website for complete lyrics to all his songs. LAST PLANE OUT Patrick Leonard, Kevin Gilbert, Guy Pratt Greetings from Sodom How we wish you were here The weather's getting warmer Now that the trees are all cleared There's no time for a conscience And we recognize no crime Yeah we got dogs and Valvoline It's a pretty damn good time (Chorus:) Men of reason, not of rhyme Keep the spoils and share your crime Good men, Bad men, lost without A hope for passage on the last plane out There was one repressed do-gooder And a few who still believed Yes I think there were five good men here yesterday But they were asked to leave So we've kept the good old vices And laboured to invent a few With cake in vulgar surplus We can have it and eat it, too (Chorus:) Men of reason, hide your face Walking backwards, plays his ace Good men, Bad men, lost without A hope for passage on the last plane out Here's a concept you can't dance to An idea you cannot hum There may not be an empty seat When all is said and done I'm not the guy who sings the hymns No bleeding heart to mend But I like the part where Icarus Hijacks the little red hen Someone said the Big Man May be joining us soon But I never was the type to hang With the harbingers of doom And this party is addictive Self-destructive, no doubt So I hope that someone saves a seat for me On the last plane out (Chorus:) The next one is absolutely devastating. Read on.. read on. THERE WAS A LITTLE BOY Patrick Leonard, Kevin Gilbert Mother's crazy but she runs the family Two older sisters and the boy who's nine years old He's old enough to see the way it's going Somewhere the birds are singing But mother's all alone He needs a father but she takes a lover This man is not a friend, shows no friendship This man just waits around to play with sister But he plays too serious, he plays too rough (half chorus:) How can you expect a child to understand the sickness of a world whose eyes are blind? The dying man inside this little boy is questioning his once upon a time He leaves home early for a loveless world And he finds what he needs with an older boy He's got a couple things to hide from mother He hopes she'll understand, she hopes he'll change (Chorus:) How can you expect a child to understand the sickness of a world whose eyes are blind? (There was a little boy) A world he can't hope to conquer, insecurities that fester in his mind. (There was a little boy) No choice, no fault and no way out, no blame, no guilt, no friends, no cure, no crime. (There was a little boy) The dying man inside this little boy is questioning his once upon a time. (There was a little boy) This boy was once a strong man - but getting weaker, He carries more than just the shame inside His mother stays away and faces nothing She blindly wishes for a happy ending (Chorus:) Since we're talking about songwriting, this seems especially poignant. It was only included on the reissue release a few years ago. BLANK PAGE Kevin Gilbert Blank page Lonely, staring up at me Daring me to try to be Simple yet profound Words alone For all that consciousness allows Find I'm at a loss for how To say just what I've found I entered through an open door Left by all who came before With thoughts so rich yet words so poor For truth's already spoken for Reach within To find a misplaced bit of truth In love or hate or age or youth In what prized piece of mind Close the book Evasive truth still yet to find Of rhythm felt by twisted rhyme When words get left behind Well something snaps and then you learn Chasing words is no concern Then one by one they die and turn To mild regret and hopeless yearn Blank page Lonely, staring up at me Escaping my apology From a blank page left unsigned It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Ferrington III. Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Sheer genius, IMHO, from the late Kevin Gilbert. Some are morality plays, others just great prose. Every one is amazing (again, IMHO) both lyrically and musically. Yep. That must be your opinion 'cause to be honest, I didn't like any of them. :D Sorry, but I guess that's taste for ya, one size definitely doesn't fit all. Band MySpace My snazzy t-shirt empire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Then maybe, for you, those will require the music to appreciate. (Or maybe you just won't like 'em anyway, in which case thhhpppphhtt!) It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 I can't believe I just posted that to reach 15,000. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Ferrington III. Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Aw, no... you wasted your 15,000th on my silly post. Makes me want to like the lyrics just to make it up to you! Band MySpace My snazzy t-shirt empire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Are we just bouncing back and forth between these threads, Vince? It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Yeah, but you hate challenging poetry as lyric anyway, Miro. Not sure what you are saying here.... If you mean that you think I don't much care for lyrics that have a strong, poetry-like quality... ...I don't think I ever said that. I don't just like or write very simplistic Pop lyrics. What I said was that I do write a lot of "love/relationship" songs...but the lyrics to those songs can, and do have a very poetic feel, especially if I take the lyrics out of context from the music. I do think that many people aren't really writing lyrics...but rather they are writing poetry...and THEN adding music to fit the lyrics. I tend to write both simultaneously...so right from the git-go, I am hearing a song in my head...sometimes almost the entire rough production. I don't think I've ever first written complete lyrics...and then worked on the music for them. I guess that's why I say that lyrics without the music...are out of context. But yeah...I can take the lyrics from any one of my songs and they will stand on their own...but it just doesn't mean that same thing to me without hearing the music too. Theres many ways to compose. I dont know how some of you other folks go about writing a song...what process you use...? miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 I dont want to get too deep into posting up many lyrics to my songsbut heres just a small sample of one tune. Snow spins softly, on the crowded avenue. Soldiers of fortune, dressed in rags, walk the streets in worn out shoes. Fate is just another word for broken dreams and pain. If they took away the aces, would you still play the game? While I dont go out of my way to use very extreme, complex imageryIMOthose lines are very poetic. Howeverwithout hearing the musicyou never really get the full impact of the lyrics, as you can read those lyrics 20 different ways. But when you hear them WITH the musicthere is only ONE way. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Ferrington III. Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Fate is just another word for broken dreams and pain. My favourite line about broken dreams is in some Tom Waits song in the "Small Change" album where he sings something like Cause the dreams ain't broken down here. No, they're walking with a limp. That just kills me. Band MySpace My snazzy t-shirt empire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trucks Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 I enjoy Tom Waits lyrics, he has a real "cool" way of putting things... Ya know... Like Soundclick Myspace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Can't rememebr the song it's from...but I always liked the Wait's line about... Can I borrow a few bucks until my brother straightens out? .... .... .... He's a hunchback! :grin: miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 How about this one from Tom Petty? It's a musician's bad dream put down on paper and sung to music! Cool Dry Place The Traveling Wilburys Well I woke up this morning The place was such a wreck I couldn't reach the bathroom Thought I'd better clear the deck I tried to call the lawyer And asked him what to do He referred me to his doctor Who referred me back to you And when you checked the manual You kept inside the case It said 'put it in a cool dry place' I drove around the city Looking for a room That was high above the water Where my things could be in tune There was no one to help me Nobody even cared I had to go through hell To get those things up there I paid my first subscription Then I joined the idle race and they said 'store it in a cool dry place' I got guitars, basses, amplifiers and drums Accordions and mandolins and things that sometimes hum Cymbals and harmonicas, capos by the score And lots of things in boxes laying all around the floor Some places they get mildew And others get too hot Some places are so damp that Everything you got just rots All kinds of condensation Direct result of the rain There's not much compensation When everything's been stained Some have sentimental value that Cannot be erased Go store it in a cool dry place We got solids and acoustics And some from flowered board And some are trimmed in leather And some are made with gourds There's organs and trombones And reverbs we can use Lots of DX-7s And old athletic shoes I bought a great big building That took up one whole block I made an inventory Of all the things in stock The list was getting longer I was up all night I used up all my pencils But I went on despite The blurring of my vision The sweat upon my face I've got to put this stuff away I mustn't leave a trace The landlord's breathing down my neck He says it's a disgrace So I said 'put it in a cool, dry, place. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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