why are some wind and brass instruments in different keys

[Jonathan Hughes]

This has always perplexed me: Why are some wind and brass instruments (saxes, clarinets, trumpets, french horns, etc.) not in the key of C. I know that there are some uncommon versions that _are_ in C (my cousin has a C alto sax), but everything is typically in Bb or Eb. Why is that? Why couldn't they just call the notes that are played on the instrument the same as what they sound like? Also, does anyone know why these instruments came to be in those keys rather than F or G or D or whatever? I'm sure there must be a good reason for this, but it sure does make things very complicated. Jonathan

[Brakka]

[url=http://allencole.tripod.com/bandinst.htm]What Guitar Players Should Know About Horns[/url] :wave:

[RABid]

I would also like to know this. After playing alto sax (Eb), baretone sax (Eb), trumpet (Bb) and piano in highschool I learned to transpose pretty well when switching instruments. I could not do it now. Seems that I remember that it had something to do with fingering the notes so that a C scale was the easiest to play, though you were not REALLY playing a C scale. Robert

[Jonathan Hughes]

Brakka, thanks for that link. So THAT'S IT? It was just done to make it easier to _read_? That sounds like throwing the baby out with the bath water -- we'll make it so it's easier for you players to read, but it's going to make it much more difficult to communicate with people who play other instruments, and a lot more complicated for people who put the music on paper. I was hoping that there was some scientific reason behind it, like something that involved the overtone series or something. Jonathan

[Brakka]

The overtone series is always the same- in equal-temperment, it's basically Fundamental an octave above that a fifth above that a fourth above that a minor third above that then it's whole steps for a while, then half steps (from the minor third on, the overtones are not perfect intervals) the formula is something like freq=speed of sound/wavelength ... The reason horns are in different keys is not just to make music easier to read. Horns have a limited range. Since they usually play in large groups (bands or orchestras), the horns need to cover a wide range. With saxes, if you had 3 saxes tuned to C in three different octaves, they would sound like shit in a group. Eb Bb Eb Bb makes a better blend. But why is a trumpet in Bb instead of C? Good question. My guess is that it just sounds better.

[Jonathan Hughes]

"But why is a trumpet in Bb instead of C? Good question. My guess is that it just sounds better." That's the one I find the most confusing. I can't see any reason why it (or Bb saxes for that matter) couldn't be written for in C.

[Mark Zeger]

[quote]Originally posted by Brakka.: [b]But why is a trumpet in Bb instead of C? Good question. My guess is that it just sounds better.[/b][/quote]Trumpets are most often found in Bb. But there are trumpets in many other keys. These descriptions are from the Bach (as in instrument maker Vincent Bach) website: TRUMPET IN C Many modern compositions are very strenuous to play when written in the high register, which can be performed more effectively by using a C trumpet. Widely used in chamber playing because of the singing tone quality. TRUMPET IN D A brilliant tone that blends well with voices and strings makes this model effective in oratorio, opera, and high register symphonic repertory. Optional slides available to tune to C. SOPRANO TRUMPET IN Eb An easy high register enabling use of open harmonics and avoidance of crossfingerings, resulting in a clear, brilliant, and freely responding tone. Optional slides available to tune to D. SOPRANINO TRUMPET IN F The brilliant and vibrant tone of the F sopranino trumpet makes it suitable for difficult oratorio performances of Bach and other baroque composers. SOPRANINO TRUMPET IN G Designed as an alternate to the high F trumpet for the performance of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 (for example, the difficult high G-A trill can be played one step lower as an F-G trill). Well suited for baroque clarino parts. Optional slides available to tune to F. PICCOLO TRUMPET IN Bb/A Produces a bright and scintillating tone in the extreme high register. Four valves extend the range of the instrument and allow for alternate fingerings. Interchangeable and tunable mouthpipes for both Bb and A. CONTRALTO TRUMPET IN F (below standard Bb) Shares the third and fourth cornet parts in European orchestrations, often playing the afterbeat in marches. Effective in brass quartets and quintets, as well as replacing the horns in marching bands. BASS TRUMPET IN Bb Designed principally for replacing the valve trombone. Suitable for Wagner operas and solo work, it can also be used in jazz ensembles, brass quartets, and marching bands.

[Veracohr]

[quote]Trumpets, saxophones, clarinets and some flutes learn their notes at different pitches from the rest of the world. Try to follow this train of thought: Modern horns were designed to play in groups which used written music. Their ranges, however, are limited (usually 2 1/2 to 3 octaves) and they are made in various sizes so that multiple players can cover larger ranges. For example, the Alto Sax covers 2.5 octaves of range, and the Tenor Sax covers a similar amount of range but a 4th lower. Go down another fifth (a full octave below the Alto) using the Baritone Sax. The fingering systems are identical for them all, but the the notes sounded by the same fingering are different on different horns. For music readers, this would cause a fingering nightmare. So, it was decided that each fingering would be equated to a certain written note. The written music is transposed for the player so that the desired pitches are expressed as the notes associated with the needed fingering. For example, what's written third-space C on an Alto Sax is really the E-flat a sixth below. On a Tenor Sax reading the same note/fingering, the actual pitch would be a B-flat a ninth below. On the Baritone Sax, that written third-space C would actually come out of the horn as the E-flat an octave and a sixth below. [/quote]Holy crap, that's confusing! :freak:

[Philip OKeefe]

Well, as a (former) sax player, I'd say you've already been given the answers you seek. Alto sax is Eb, as is the Baritone sax. Tenor is Bb. Fingerings are basically the same across the instruments, but when all three fingers of the left hand are depressed ("G" fingering) on say, a tenor and an alto, the note you hear is a different concert pitch, even though to each player, they're playing a "G". The difference comes from the different length of the horns. Calling them different pitches would be quite confusing for someone who played more than one instrument from that "family", and the problem with transposition is usually handled when the sheet music is written out... or mentally when dealing with unwritten / charted music. BTW, beyond the four normally known saxophones (soprano, alto, tenor and bari) there are several other lesser known saxophones - including the C Melody sax, which is actually a non-transposing instrument - IOW, a "C" on that sax is the same pitch as a "C" on a piano.

[Brakka]

[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan Hughes: [b]I can't see any reason why it (or Bb saxes for that matter) couldn't be written for in C.[/b][/quote]There are two ways of looking at that- [b]*[/b]An alto sax is an alto sax. If the player fingers an C, it comes out as Eb concert. If the alto player learned from the start that that fingering was an "Eb," [b]then he wouldn't need to transpose.[/b] But then if he needed to play tenor for some reason, he'd have to use a completely different fingering system. [b]*[/b]If a sax was made to a scale (size, sot music scale) such that when the player fingered a "C" the note produced is a C concert,[b] then he wouldn't need to transpose.[/b] This instrument does exist, and it's the C Melody that your friend has. This instrument sounds like crap, but that may be because instrument makers mainly produce Eb & Bb saxes so the C horns are rare and not well-kept. Many C Melody horns are played with alto mouthpieces and repaired with parts from altos & tenors- I've never seen a nice one. The trumpet came before the sax, and it was made in many keys- before valves were invented. Given the overtone series above, you could only play scales in the third register, and only a master could do it well. When valves were invented, trumpets were mainly in F and also Bb & C- but the Bb & C are the popular ones today. It's easier to understand why saxes are in different keys- the section blends better, and covers a wide range while producing notes that sound good. If you listen to horns a lot, you'll recognize the sound or a particular instrument- alto & tenor are pretty easy to identify on a Miles album with Coltrane & Cannonball. The alto sounds the way it does because of the way it is built. A C sax just doesn't sound right, since we're used to the ones that are the way they are. A C trumpet sounds different than a Bb too- more brilliant esp in the upper octave. But it wouldn't sound right if you put one in JB's horn section. Horns are the way they are because history made them that way. :) :wave:

[Mike Dawson]

The questions already been answered, but one thing to keep in mind is that once you have a relatively firm understanding of this it actually makes things much simpler. If you're ever in a situation where you are required to write individual parts for these instruments you'll appreciate the simplicity of establishing a key and writing mostly on the staff, as opposed to writing each part in the same key and spending half of your time off the staff using ledger lines. The same goes with reading. Transposing in the fly can be tricky, but in most cases it's much easier to mentally set yourself in a given key and transpose it than to play an entire piece counting ledger lines. And of course, the length of the instrument does play a large role in the sound, so if you altered each instrument to fit into the same key then you would vastly alter the sound of a band or orchestra. But this concept is more than just a nuisance created by that fact, it really does simplify things once you understand it.

[Botch.]

I took up tenor sax a couple months ago, and I made a conscious decision to learn it in "C", i.e. if I played piano sheet music I would be in the right pitch with other instruments like guitars, basses and keyboards, since that's all I'll ever play it with; I have no plans of ever playing it in a big-band or orchestral setting. This ticked off my music instructor but the Jamie Amersole series has the music written out for all the different instruments, I just turn to the "C" section and honk away. The only problem I see, and I just realized it from reading Phil O'Keefe's post, is that if I ever take up another sax (it'd be a soprano if I do) I'd have to at least transpose my fingering, but that shouldn't be too difficult (I'm already transposing my harps into 1st and 2nd position (4th above and 4th below)). Like many conventions in music, this probably won't go away, like writing "molto ritardo" rather than "slow down dammit", in English! :D

[Brakka]

[quote]Originally posted by Botch.: [b]The only problem I see, and I just realized it from reading Phil O'Keefe's post, is that if I ever take up another sax (it'd be a soprano if I do) I'd have to at least transpose my fingering, but that shouldn't be too difficult [/b][/quote]Soprano & tenor are both in Bb, so you can use the [i]Botch Fingering System[/i] on soprano. And on flute, too.

[Botch.]

[quote]Originally posted by Brakka.: [b][QUOTE]Soprano & tenor are both in Bb, so you can use the [i]Botch Fingering System[/i] on soprano. And on flute, too.[/b][/quote][b]Cool!![/b] Things don't usually fall into place like that! Oh, and the botched fingering system is in a lot more widespread use than is admitted.... :D ;)

[GZsound]

I picked up a sax student a couple of months ago after not doing any teaching for several years. Just a friends kid. I was amazed how much thinking went into NOT playing the concert key when reading the music. I had played in "automatic transpose" mode for so long, it was actually difficult to retrain my brain to read an "A" and my fingers to play the "G" (concert) fingering..I kept wanting to play the "B" key on my tenor.

[Wewus432]

In the 17th and 18th century many of the brass and woodwind instruments could only be played easily in certain keys, so they were built only in those keys. Although construction techniques have improved greatly since then some instruments are traditionally still built in certain keys. Most horns and woodwinds are known as [b]transposing instruments[/b] which means that the note sounded is different than the note written and this is also in part, to avoid ledger lines and to keep the notes of that instrument easily readable within the appropriate bass or treble clef. Here's a chart and some info on some of the [url=http://www.teoria.com/articles/transposition/01.htm]TRANSPOSING INSTRUMENTS[/url] . Guitar and Bass are also technically transposing instruments because their parts are written higher than they actually sound to keep their notes centered on the treble and bass clefs with as few ledger lines as possible.

[not Cereal]

That's not funny wewoosh. The guitar where you grew on was destroyed by porking floatupines in a transposed state.

[Wewus432]

Well this is great, now we've trashed every thread anyone was posting on. I don't want to scare you but, my neighbor's dog is not very fond of you.

[Brittanylips]

[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan Hughes: [b]"But why is a trumpet in Bb instead of C? Good question. My guess is that it just sounds better." That's the one I find the most confusing. I can't see any reason why it (or Bb saxes for that matter) couldn't be written for in C.[/b][/quote]In practice, more and more orchestral trumpet players use trumpets in C rather than Bb. Bb is more jazz and band - oriented, where more music tends to be in Bb as well (the fingering is more comfortable on a Bb trumpet). PLB

[Brittanylips]

The Wewus' answer is the most correct from what I understand. The reason for different-keyed instruments was not necessarily to make things easier, but to make them playable. The origin of many of these instruments pre-dates the technology of valves, so in order to play certain notes or certain keys, you had to use a different instrument. With the advent of valves, single instruments were able to play all the notes and thus a variety of keys, but the variety of instruments based on different roots continued mainly out of tradition, and to a lesser extent range and sound quality. However, the sonic differences among different instruments in the same family (e.g. Bb, C, Eb trumpets) is much smaller than the sonic differences among different players or even instrument manufacturers. As odd as it may sound, tests have been done (e.g. one player playing different-rooted instruments vs. different players playing the same or different instruments) -- I've attended some of these tests. With newer instruments, I agree with what I think the sax-person wrote above -- Players want to see the notes in a staff, rather than reading ledger lines (although, incidentally, different instrument families, I have found, have different tolerance for ledger-line reading before the expectation of a cleff change). Thus, although the range of saxes are different, as written, they center on the staff, and make life easy for the player accustomed to the transposition to read the notes. -Peace, Love, and Brittanylips