archibald3 Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 We`re playing a gig this weekend that wev`e played many times before but i`m having big problems with the kick.The system is underpowered as it is and the only eq is a small on the on the board and 3 bands on the strip -one with a sweepable mid.The mid sweep only goes down to just below 1k -the bottom on the board graph is 60,120,250,and 500. The problem i`m having is thus:because eqing is limited and we only run vocals,guitar,bass and kick through the p.a.-i basically use the main graph on the board to get a good vocal sound-then once i`ve got the singer happy with the outfront sound and monitors i add in the rest of the instruments,do a little eqing as neccessary on their respective strips and its usually fine.We`ve got a new drummer though and i just can`t seem to get any good bottom without low end feedback and overtones bleeding into the vocal mics and sending them off around 120-160.He has kind of a small kick and he`s not as hard a hitter as our past drummers. Any suggestions would be appreciated.I threw a small piece of scrimm into the kick to try to dampen it abit maybe something heavier or more absorbant in the kick?The stage is really small as well so that doesn`t help. Thanks for any input Arch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Klopmeyer Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Wow, you can't get decent signal out of the kick without boomy feedback? This guy must [i]really[/i] be playing lightly. Well, is there anything you can do with the kick mic placement, for starters, or the drum itself? Are you micing inside the skin or outside? Can you gate the kick signal a bit? I'm also not quite sure I understand the EQ limitation. Do you not have any paramteric or graphic control at the frequency range of the kick? What happens if you just pull back on the 60Hz on the channel strip (lemme guess...crappy tone, huh)? Good luck. If one of the live gurus (Drew, Tinder, etc.) are around, they can help more than me. - Jeff Marketing Communications for MI/Pro Audio My solo music and stuff They Stole My Crayon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franknputer Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 My first question is what kind of mic are you using, and where are you placing it? If it's a mic designed for a kick drum, then it may really just be about finding the right spot for it. If you're using a mic designed for vocals & are trying to hype the bottom end, it's gonna be a bit harder. My guess is that you are cranking up the low EQ on the channel, right? That's typically a 100 Hz. shelf, unless it's a Mackie or a Mackie knockoff - err, I mean, Mackie-inspired ;) - in which case it's 80 Hz. If there's a low-cut filter on the channels, punch it in on all the channels except the bass - usually it's below the useable frequency range of most instruments. You can also try doing this on the kick channel, then boosting the low EQ - this creates a quasi-parametric curve on the bass frequencies (more of a bell curve than a shelf shape). Sometimes that can help. It's kinda hard to get good boom out of a baby PA - especially as you add more stuff into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald3 Posted June 21, 2003 Author Share Posted June 21, 2003 I`m using a d112 on the kick and there is no shelving on the board[old yamaha 12 channel].No gates or effects of any kind either.What i did for damage control was use the smal 10 band or whatever on the board to eq th vocals out front-make sure everything sounded good besides the kick-then brought in the kick and tryed to work with it on the strip.The main problen is-to make the vocals sound good out front i can only pull down 120 on the main eq so much-but to make the kick stop ringing i have to pull down 120 and boost 60.So i`m limited to the strip for the kick and there`s just not much i can do.I`m basically in damage control mode -trying to figure out any little adjustments i can make to bring it together!Right now i`ve got the d112 inside the kick about 5 inches from the head,off center from the beater a little. Arch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Klopmeyer Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Well, the D112 is a good mic for kick. The positioning seems right, or at least where I'd put it. I just re-read your original post...is the feedback coming from the kick drum mic or from the bleed into the vocal mics??? If it's the latter, can't you re-position the vocal mics a bit? - Jeff Marketing Communications for MI/Pro Audio My solo music and stuff They Stole My Crayon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Given your mic placement and EQ limitations, I'm wondering why you're getting any feedback from the kick mic. :confused: Are you returning kick to the monitors? Bad idea with a small PA. You're wasting most of the monitor power on the kick.... Not good. Anyway, back to your original problem. Stop trying to EQ the house to a vocal mic, with the lows cut on the house eq. Try eliminating most of the low end from the vocal mics on the channel strip and leave tailor the low end on the main EQ to the bass and kick. If possible, get an EQ on the monitor send and kill the low end that's feeding back your system. Otherwise you need to forget good sound and stabalize the system. Mediocre sound is better than theoretical good sound with constant feedback. ;) BTW, I'm not a big fan of feedback busters, but you might want to invest $60 in a Behringer Shark processor, which I believe can be used to kill the feedback, among other things. Please elaborate on the monitor situation. That may give me more ideas what will or won't work to alleviate your situation. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 I'd use my graphic EQ to ring out the system. Push your mics uniformly up until you feedback. Then bring each band up until you feedback. bring that band down a bit. then boost your overall level and repeat. That way you've identified the resonant frequencies of the place your playing at. Then I would use the board's channel EQ to shape the sound of the individual mics. Using the board's graphic EQ to shape the singer's mic would be a mistake, IMHO. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boosh Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 My option would be : Tell the drummer to kick harder. Fan, nu pissar jag taggtråd igen. Jag skulle inte satt på räpan. http://www.bushcollectors.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franknputer Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 I agree with Neil & alcohol - don't EQ the system to the vocals. Instead, use a CD that you know the sound of (preferably with some clarity - death metal probably won't help you) and make the system sound good. THEN start adding the instruments & vocals. Quick 0.05 cent advice: If the vocals are too woofy (since you're cutting 120 so much) then roll off the bass. If you're getting feedback, check your gain structure: turn the PA up most of the way, put the faders at 0 & bring up the mic preamps' gain. If it feeds back, trim the preamp level till it stops. Also, investigate your speaker placement - if you can move the speakers away a bit you might buy a few dBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald3 Posted June 21, 2003 Author Share Posted June 21, 2003 Thanks alot guys i think if i could turn back i would do things differently and ring out the system for sure.Just a quick question for Alcohol or whoever-using your technique are you starting with the eq flat or every slider all the way down?My second question would be -if i use this system to ring out the monitors as well would it be better to do them before or after the mains?Also if i was to set the gain structure as indicated above would i do that before or after ringing out the system? Thanks again Arch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Start with the EQ flat, at the center. Start with your monitors. Then close them and do your fronts. Often frequencies that are resonating are some simple multiple of each other. For example, if you find feedback at 4000 htz you're likely to find feedback at 400 htz or maybe 800 htz. It's also a good chance that you'll find the mains ringing out at the same frequencies. That's been my experience. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by boosh: [b]My option would be : Tell the drummer to kick harder.[/b][/quote]And use a wood beater :) "That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franknputer Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Set the gain structure first, and go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald3 Posted June 21, 2003 Author Share Posted June 21, 2003 Well we played tonight-what i did was i raised the monitors on milk cartons so that i could turn down the vocals in the monitors and trim abit of 120 in them.That helped and when the club filled up abit it absorbed a little of the bottom.Next time i`ll ring out the system and make sure the gain structure is correct before i even start.I also moved the d112 a little closer to the beater and implemented the concept of letting the bass fill out the bottom end and keeping the kick a little more snappy.I really appreciate your advice. Arch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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