Blues Piano Questions

[smitty70]

I have to say as a newcomer to this forum, what a great collection of knowledge/information. There are a ton of great suggestions and ideas on just this one thread obviously from a diverse bunch of musicians!!!!

 

[erikeys]

While I have such excellent helpful people here, what about the question of switching keys? In C for example I know you can play the C scale/scales mentioned over the F and G.

But do you also, as I think I hear often, change keys, so you're playing F blues/D blues over F, and G blues/E blues over G?

Or, as I seem to remember overhearing something about, do you play the C scales over C(I) and G(V), and the F scales (F blues/D Blues) over F (IV)? I seem to remember something about switching keys for one of the F or G chords but not both, but I can't remember if it was for the F or the G, or what you do.

 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

 

Eric

[Kayvon]

Yeah thanks for the tips, specially Kanker, a good few names for me to check out there.

[Mr. Nightime]

While I have such excellent helpful people here, what about the question of switching keys? In C for example I know you can play the C scale/scales mentioned over the F and G.

But do you also, as I think I hear often, change keys, so you're playing F blues/D blues over F, and G blues/E blues over G?

Or, as I seem to remember overhearing something about, do you play the C scales over C(I) and G(V), and the F scales (F blues/D Blues) over F (IV)? I seem to remember something about switching keys for one of the F or G chords but not both, but I can't remember if it was for the F or the G, or what you do.

 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

 

Eric

 

You'll notice that the information that Kanker gave you was in the number format. That way it translates to every key.

 

Do you change scales with the key? It depends on what you're going for, but generally, yes.

 

My band does a song that's in both G and E. When we're in G, my fill work is based on the G blues scale. In E, the E blues scale.

 

 

[Byrdman]

While I have such excellent helpful people here, what about the question of switching keys? In C for example I know you can play the C scale/scales mentioned over the F and G.

But do you also, as I think I hear often, change keys, so you're playing F blues/D blues over F, and G blues/E blues over G?

Or, as I seem to remember overhearing something about, do you play the C scales over C(I) and G(V), and the F scales (F blues/D Blues) over F (IV)? I seem to remember something about switching keys for one of the F or G chords but not both, but I can't remember if it was for the F or the G, or what you do.

 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

 

Eric

 

 

A key concept is borrowing - you can borrow notes from the major blues scale when playing the minor and vice versa. So with borrowing you get all the notes of the IV chord while playing the combined I blues scales.

 

There are some previous threads on this.

[MikeNZ]

The Blues Piano Masterclass multimedia CD from PG Music is great if you are new to blues piano. It takes you through the basics of blues comping and soloing, with enough tips and tricks to actually get a good blues groove going in various styles. Has audio and MIDI files, notated parts, and video clips, so you can really work out what all those tricky little parts are without spending hours and hours listening to blues tracks. Trying to figure this stuff out from listening to recordings is very hard. I learned more in 1 hour with the Blues piano masterclass than I could have with a whole week of listening to recordings. Well worth the $29, IMO. www.pgmusic.com

 

Band in a Box is also worth looking at to see how some blues riffs and comping are put together. Not worth buying BIAB for, but if you have access spend a bit of time looking over some blues piano parts.

 

Michael

[kanker.]

While I have such excellent helpful people here, what about the question of switching keys?

I kind of addressed that in my earlier post. You'd basically stick with the C blues scales (major and minor) through the whole form, each chord. What you'll notice is that the major side of things encompasses the F nicely - C, D, Eb, (E), G, A, are, with the exception of the E in parenthesis, members of the F13 chord. The E natural actually works nicely on the IV too, good tension/melody note. The minor side also sits nicely - C, Eb, F, (F#), G, (Bb). This again leads to combining the scales into a master scale C, D, Eb, (E), F, (F#), G, A, (Bb), with the notes in parenthesis making for great tension notes against the F. Add a B natural to the scale, and you have a great scale for the V - ©, D, (Eb), E, F, (F#), G, A, (Bb), B, and again the notes in parenthesis make for great tension notes.

[kanker.]

My band does a song that's in both G and E. When we're in G, my fill work is based on the G blues scale. In E, the E blues scale.

 

Try playing the E blues scale against the G.

[kanker.]

While I have such excellent helpful people here, what about the question of switching keys?

I kind of addressed that in my earlier post. You'd basically stick with the C blues scales (major and minor) through the whole form, each chord. What you'll notice is that the major side of things encompasses the F nicely - C, D, Eb, (E), G, A, are, with the exception of the E in parenthesis, members of the F13 chord. The E natural actually works nicely on the IV too, good tension/melody note. The minor side also sits nicely - C, Eb, F, (F#), G, (Bb). This again leads to combining the scales into a master scale C, D, Eb, (E), F, (F#), G, A, (Bb), with the notes in parenthesis making for great tension notes against the F. Add a B natural to the scale, and you have a great scale for the V - ©, D, (Eb), E, F, (F#), G, A, (Bb), B, and again the notes in parenthesis make for great tension notes.

I should add that the B also makes for a great tension/passing note for the I and the IV.

[Mr. Nightime]

My band does a song that's in both G and E. When we're in G, my fill work is based on the G blues scale. In E, the E blues scale.

 

Try playing the E blues scale against the G.

 

I would, but it's actually Gm & E major. If it was the other way around, that would work nicely.

 

[Blue JC]

One of the important things that identify a blues style is the ambiguity of major/minor. This is probably due the use of slide guitars, home made fiddles and basses, and blues harps (harmonicas) in addition to "field shouts" (singing and chanting) based on African Muslim indigenous scales instead of Western scales.

 

So you get the so-called "blue notes" (b3, b5, b6, b7) borrowed from the minor and played over the major scale. You can reverse the process and play very major lines over a minor blues. BB King does this a lot.

 

This is one of the things that I often see young people learning the blues struggling to learn. It's especially difficult for keyboard players because we don't have those "in-between" notes (without using a really cheesy pitch-bending wheel.)

[Mr. Nightime]

This is one of the things that I often see young people learning the blues struggling to learn. It's especially difficult for keyboard players because we don't have those "in-between" notes (without using a really cheesy pitch-bending wheel.)

 

That's where the use of grace notes come in. Most of the "blue notes" are in between pitches. By rolling into a note, the "in-between" is implied.

 

Some of the greats would hit a m2 to get the blue note.

 

While the technique is extremely important, the emotion and feel is even more important. The old saw about needing to have the blues to play the blues is very accurate. My best playing comes when there's been something that has brought me down, and I can express that through my playing.

[stepay]

Forvige me if this has already been covered -- I read every post, but I didn't see this EXACTLY as I'm going to present it.

 

There's a minor and major blues scale.

 

Minor Blues scale (this is often called just the blues scale; Root, +1 ½ steps, + 1 step, + ½ step, + ½ step, + 1 ½ steps. If playing blues in the key of E, these notes are: E, G, A, Bb, B, D). You can play this over major or minor progressions, so you could use this all the time for blues songs if you want.

 

You can also play the MAJOR Blues scale which is the major pentatonic scale with an added note (a flatted third), so in the key of C, the major blues scale are these 6 notes - C, D, Eb, E, G, A (1, 2, b3, 3, 5, 6). If you're playing a blues song in the key of C (major keys) for example (C, F, G), then this scale sounds great.

 

For leaning purposes if you're not familiar, the Major blues scale in C is the same as the minor blues scale in A, so if you already know that minor blues scale in A, then you could use it over a C, F, G progression (when technically it would be called a Major Blues scale in the key of C).

 

Definitely good info provided by others. Just trying to simplify things since I'm a simpleton.

[UpNorthBuckeye]

Good stuff!

 

As a lead in to the minor blues scale, I like to use the 4 and a flatted 2nd before going to the blues scale... so for example, in the key of C, the notes would be F, Db, C, Bb, G, Eb, C etc.

 

Or as another lead in, play a D major chord in a quick "br-r-rack" before going into the C minor blues scale, like,

 

D, F#, A, D, (ascending) then C, Bb, G, Gb, F, etc.

 

"Br-r-r-ack!" --- it's like clearing your throat!

 

Also like the sound of the 6th and flatted third together against "major" blues scale. In the key of E, that would be the C# and G tritone against the E chord.

 

I wish I had a keyboard here....

[MikeNZ]

The Blues Piano Masterclass spends a lot of time covering grace notes, blue note, and glissandi effects.

 

Michael

[liveli_hood]

There's an effective technique from the thirties where the rhythm is quickened for 4 bars and back to a lazier sound. Or visca versa.

 

Everyone has found one - five notes played in a phrase repetively over whatever the changes.

 

The left hand is good to know to play octaves and the ideas already mentioned (good, I get to try out your ideas) and can much interest. The most rhythmicly propelling (I have to admit to looking over people's shoulders) to me are extremely simple. Octave twice then b3. Fifth then b4. The note on beat 4 slides up, be swallowed (implied, ppp), not played. Gives a solid sound.

 

I usually go back to messing around with swinging eighths combined with walking,

but simple is far more effective and useful.

 

I second learning intros and outros, and anything pleasing to your ear. I liked hearing when Leon Russel used to rock out. On some tunes octaves on the baseline against octaves in the melody. Still I like the simplicity.

 

Just a note on the major third, and it makes the solo more social, spirited somehow.

Perhaps being formulaic is worisome, but when you play your best the scale may not matter so much as being lyrical. I don't know what Louis Armstrong did, but his solos often used a major scale and adept use of the prior-mentioned passing note of b2 and since the b6 is often in the melody, hit straight on.

 

If you like the more tin pan alley progressions like, 'No one knows you when you;re down and out' in C,

I III/5 Vi Vi/b7 IV VI7/5 ii (VI7 ii) IV II7b9/3 Vi/b7 #VIø Vi- II7 V

Bass - C B A G F E D (AD) F F# G G# A D G

 

I don't about sonorous, but it's pretty widely used. Seems to have a gospel ring to it depending on where you heard it first. Who knows, everyone borrowed from one another. Just something to try our for kicks, like the change of speed in fours it can loosen you up or give you just another formula.

[liveli_hood]

MikeNZ wrote "if you have access spend a bit of time looking over some blues piano parts." Definately something I have neglected. Hope you find some good scores.

[Byrdman]

Forvige me if this has already been covered -- I read every post, but I didn't see this EXACTLY as I'm going to present it.

 

There's a minor and major blues scale.

 

 

Frequently in other threads. If anyone is new here, they should go search on blues scale - there's a boatload of info in this site on it.

[Byrdman]

I just looked at what I do when I am playing the major Blues scales over the changes.

 

What it comes down to is when I change to the four I use the minor third as well as the major third of the IV chord. That's Ab in key of C. Other than that the 5 and 6 of the major blues scale on the IV are the 1 and 2 of the I scale. (ie, C and D in key of C)

 

I also borrow the minor 7 (Eb) over the IV chord more than I borrow the I 7 (Bb) over the one chord. One can characterize that as a borrowing from the scale of the I chord.

 

The thing about scales is to avoid them when improvising. If you are sitting thinking "I am going to use the major Blues scale of the IV chord" then that's what you will end up playing, and its really hackneyed.

 

Its something to fall back on when you are thrown a solo and you can't think of a damned thing to play, and forgive yourself for sounding trite because there's something wrong with the song and/or the rest of the band in that case.

 

But to support that extremity, practice the scales disjointly. Don't just run up and down them, but play melodies/figures within them when practicing so you can pull them out of your bag when you need them. You will use them naturally when soloing by listening to your inner ear as well.

 

One more thing - practice getting your thumb on each note of the scale. Then practice playing sections of the scale with just 4 and 5, and also 3 4 5 while keeping your thumb on a selected note. This will get you playing melodies with your outside fingers, which is an important skill. You then use the inside fingers to play fills or just hold chords.

 

 

[Jon May]

I find the tritone note (that splits the octave eg F# in the key of C)to be literally a pivotal note in solo lines. Being smack dab in the middle you can head in either direction, up or down.

 

Phrases such as...

(triplets) F# G C - F# F Eb and (straight 8ths) F F# F Eb F (with C above held with the pinky)

 

It's a good note to use as a grace note, especially if it's a black note in whatever key you're playing in, as you can slip off it onto the white note a semitone above or below it.

F# -> G + C together

 

You can also crush it together with the semitone either side.

C (goin' down) F#+F Eb C

 

Although the difference between crush and grace note is sometimes minimal

[stepay]

Forvige me if this has already been covered -- I read every post, but I didn't see this EXACTLY as I'm going to present it.

 

There's a minor and major blues scale.

 

 

Frequently in other threads. If anyone is new here, they should go search on blues scale - there's a boatload of info in this site on it.

 

Yeah. I meant in THIS thread. I agree that people should use the search feature, but it isn't particularly good. The restriction to only go back 6 months puts a damper on things too.