Help on Modes

[NeilH]

Hi all,

 

Just stumbled across this forum so I hope I'm not asking a question that others have asked before.

 

I understand the theory about modes to a point, playing a C Major Scale starting on the D and you're playing in c Dorian mode. What I don't understand is which chords you use this over.

Do you use this mode playing over a D or a C or is it more subtle than that ?

 

Neil

 

[Hardtail]

Do you understand how to harmonize each note of a major scale?

[A String]

Actually, the C major scale, starting on a D, would yield the D Dorion mode.

 

Have a look at this thread, sticked at the top of the page and then come back here if you have any questions.

 

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1582022/page/1#Post1582022

[A String]

An excerpt:

 

C D E F G A B C - C Ionian Mode (Major)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

 

...D E F G A B C D - D Dorian Mode

...2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2

 

......E F G A B C D E - E Phrygian Mode

......3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3

 

.........F G A B C D E F - F Lydian Mode

.........4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4

 

............G A B C D E F G - G Mixolydian Mode

............5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5

 

...............A B C D E F G A - A Aeolian Mode (Minor)

...............6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6

 

..................B C D E F G A B - B Locrian Mode

..................7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

 

I =Maj or Maj 7th...........Ionian Mode starting note

II=Min or Min 7th...........Dorian Mode starting note

III=Min or Min7th............Phrygian Mode starting note

IV=Maj or Maj 7th..........Lydian Mode starting note

V=Maj or 7th..................Mixolydian Mode starting note

VI=Min or Min 7th...........Aeolian Mode starting note

VII=Dim or Min7thb5.......Locrian Mode starting note

[Billster]

Dorian is a minor mode, so it would fit best over minor progressions. Check out the link A String provided and notice the note differences between Dorian and Aeolian.

 

For instance, say you have a song in D minor. If you play D Dorian scales, the natural 6th of Dorian will rub against the flat 6th of the standard D minor.

 

Use that dissonance/variation to your discretion and taste.

[NeilH]

Wow - quick responses.

 

Harmonize each note - no I don't know how to do that - is that the first thing to figure out ?

 

I've read the post around Modes and I understand you can find a modal sclae by starting a corresponding major (or minor) scale on a note other than the root, but I'm still not sure when to use them.

 

For example, I'm playing in the key of C using the C Ionian scale and the chord progression goes from C to F. If I ocntinued to play with no sharps/flats (C major scale) would that put me in the F Lydian mode ?

 

[Billster]

For example, I'm playing in the key of C using the C Ionian scale and the chord progression goes from C to F. If I ocntinued to play with no sharps/flats (C major scale) would that put me in the F Lydian mode ?

 

No, you are still playing C major, but over the IV chord (F).

 

The scale mode is based on the scale, not the chord to which you are playing over.

 

F Lydian would be the notes F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F. The scale uses the same notes as a C major scale, but the function revolves around the "F" note, not the "C" note. Lydian is a major mode (natural 3) but has its own distinct flavor and characteristic melodic resolutions compared to a standard major scale.

[Guitar55]

Neil,

 

Think of it this way.....

 

Say you had a song that resolves on a D Minor. The chords happen to be Dm, G and Am.

 

The notes that make up the chords are:

 

Dm = D, F, A

G = G, B, D

Am = A,C, E

 

Now if you take all those notes and put them in "order" you get:

 

D, E, F, G, A, B, C

 

You notice that these notes make up the C Major scale, but you are starting on the 2nd note of the scale, D. This indicates that you are playing in the D Dorian Mode.

 

One way to approach modal playing is to undertand what chords are in a song and what notes make up those chords. This willl often lead you to the right mode or modes to play in. Of course, songs with more complex melodies will often contain chords that go outside a single mode and then you need to know how to shift between modes.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Dennis

 

 

 

 

[Billster]

Nice example Dennis, can I steal that if I start giving lessons?

[Guitar55]

Be my guest - royalty free! :-)

 

Actually, that's how I figured out how to solo before I knew what a mode was!

[MILLO]

Be my guest - royalty free! :-)

 

Actually, that's how I figured out how to solo before I knew what a mode was!

 

Hahahah! Me, too!

[Phil W]

Yeah, neat example. Dorian is one of the most frequent sounds in modern music, it's probably the most common thing you'll play/hear when you see a minor 7 chord. Get used to hearing the sound of the mode and you'll notice it often.

 

 

"would that put me in the F Lydian mode ?

 

No, you are still playing C major, but over the IV chord (F).

 

The scale mode is based on the scale, not the chord to which you are playing over.

 

F Lydian would be the notes F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F. The scale uses the same notes as a C major scale, but the function revolves around the "F" note, not the "C" note."

 

Billster, your answer seems to support the questioner's assumption rather than negate it. If you're in C, as you say, you might play F lydian over the IV chord (F).

[Billster]

"would that put me in the F Lydian mode ?

 

No, you are still playing C major, but over the IV chord (F).

 

The scale mode is based on the scale, not the chord to which you are playing over.

 

F Lydian would be the notes F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F. The scale uses the same notes as a C major scale, but the function revolves around the "F" note, not the "C" note."

 

Billster, your answer seems to support the questioner's assumption rather than negate it. If you're in C, as you say, you might play F lydian over the IV chord (F).

 

You misunderstand.

 

What makes F Lydian sound Lydian is the melodic resolution to F.

 

As part of a chord progression in C major, the F chord is not going to be the resolution (generally speaking). The F chord will function as a part of the cadence back to the tonic C chord. So melodic choices will be from a C major scale, resolving to the C major tonality.

 

Despite the fact that the notes are the same, the order in which you use them dictates the harmonic intent.

[Phil W]

Now I understand!

 

If I saw Fmaj7(#11) on a chord chart though, I would still think F lydian regardless of what key I was in - but that's a sepearte issue.

[Billster]

If I saw Fmaj7(#11) on a chord chart though...

 

When you see those types of symbols, it's an indication for the accompanist so they don't step on the written melody.

 

Again, depending on the progression, despite the #11 notation, it ain't really Lydian if the melody marches toward resolving on a C major chord.

[Phil W]

Basically I've made the 'mistake' of applying modal theory to essentially diatonic charts when it's really an unnecessary complication.

[Billster]

Basically I've made the 'mistake' of applying modal theory to essentially diatonic charts when it's really an unnecessary complication.

 

Jazzer.

 

:grin:

[MILLO]

hahahaha...

 

yup, believe it or not I've heard jazzers talking about a simple Mozart/Britney Spears/country music/any type of Western music (as in Western hemisphere cultures, not Country/Western)-approved C, F, G applying simple modal theory, you know Lydian, Mixolydian, etc. Useless.

 

...from what I've seen/heard/done what some peeps would do would be take the last chord of the resolution (in this case, c) and TURN it into lydian. So, they're playing in c major until they hit the c chord, then the play c lydian for flavor, etc. I guess this is common in the jazz world--once you resolve to the minor tonic play Dorian instead of Aeolian, and once you resolve into major play Lydian instead if Ionian.

[Phil W]

Yep, you have a lot of choices in jazz - not that you'd use them on a country tune. Luckily for bassplayers most basslines comes down to root and fifth and variations on that - and by extension tension and resolution.

[NeilH]

OK - this is really interesting thanks. Not sure I'm following the Jazz thread though :-) My son is learning Sax at the moment and his teacher is a jazz player - it all gets a bit beyond me I have to admit.

 

But...this modal thing is getting clearer now.