drummer trouble

[Ross Brown]

So what's the body count so far Ross?

In one year, you've fired 2 drummers a guitarist and walked away from a band to restart it with other members? And that just since I started visiting the forum.

Looks like your audition process may need revising

 

I thought that I had learned to ask better questions in auditions. I want to play with people that want to play and play well. A lot of people respond to ads for musicians that haven't given much thought to what they are agreeing too. I agree that I must accept responsibility for poor "hiring".

 

Thanks for pointing it out.

[TimR]

It's not just you. That was supposed to be a lighthearted remark, but I guess it was a serious point after all.

 

I've been to auditions, and afterwards thought I wish I'd asked a question, or practiced a bit more, sometimes even got the gig, but asked myself whether I really wanted to do it after all.

 

I've also auditioned people and been so desperate for someone, anyone, that I've made rash descisions. That's bad because as you have found out, you run the risk of wasting time trying to teach or wait for someone to get better.

 

My present band works very well. We are all very likeminded relaxed individuals, with common aims and ages. Most of all we know how to work together to get to a solution, because we all want to make good music. (whether we do is another question )

[Rocky McDougall]

In my very humble opinion, a drummer should be able to keep time.

Everything about a band should start from that point. We have a "set-list" and each page has the tempo in bold numbers at the top of the page. The drummer is expected to start the song off at that exact tempo or very close to it. Every drummer should have a metronome going in his heart/brain. He should be able to know the difference between 80 & 85 bpm. I play a lot of "Texas Dance Hall Western Swing" You better get the tempo right or pack up a go home.

Rocky

[Ross Brown]

It's not just you. That was supposed to be a lighthearted remark, but I guess it was a serious point after all.

 

I've been to auditions, and afterwards thought I wish I'd asked a question, or practiced a bit more, sometimes even got the gig, but asked myself whether I really wanted to do it after all.

 

I've also auditioned people and been so desperate for someone, anyone, that I've made rash descisions. That's bad because as you have found out, you run the risk of wasting time trying to teach or wait for someone to get better.

 

My present band works very well. We are all very likeminded relaxed individuals, with common aims and ages. Most of all we know how to work together to get to a solution, because we all want to make good music. (whether we do is another question )

 

I saw the humor in your remark. Kinda like my hang the body for the next guy to see comment. It is not easy to find the right mix. I know that I am not hard to get along with and neither are my other band mates. It will work....

[Johnny Crab]

In my very humble opinion, a drummer should be able to keep time.

Everything about a band should start from that point. We have a "set-list" and each page has the tempo in bold numbers at the top of the page. The drummer is expected to start the song off at that exact tempo or very close to it. Every drummer should have a metronome going in his heart/brain. He should be able to know the difference between 80 & 85 bpm. I play a lot of "Texas Dance Hall Western Swing" You better get the tempo right or pack up a go home.Rocky

+1

Dragging a "slowing down drummer" back up to speed or trying to reign in a "runaway" is a royal pain. Don't have that problem now(YEE HA!). A LOT of tunes REQUIRE excellent timing esp. with the drummer and bassist placing a foundation for the tunes. Overplaying by either can wreck tunes nicely.

 

And as Rocky said:

"You better get the tempo right or pack up a go home".

 

PS:Bands I've been in ALWAYS auditioned drummers.

During those trying times, it was found quite useful to play a handful of tunes with varying tempo's AND...without telling anyone when or where...the bass player( :grin:) would toss in a completely off-beat but time-correct bassline or two(the others expected it and kept going as if nothing happened). GOOD drummers would not miss a thing, some would look at you grinning, great ones would answer your line beat for beat, and the ones you didn't want would either trainwreck the song, derail and loose time, or stop playing and say "Why'd you do that?". Made it easier to pick good ones .

 

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

I've always been tempted by the idea of bolstring up a crap drummer with a drum machine.

 

You know, let the machine do a simple backbeat or whatever and let the drummer do the fills and turn the machine on and off.

 

Has anybody ever tried this? How did it go?

 

Thought about drum machine. Prefer drummer.

 

No, no... I meant have the drum machine as a base and then have the drummer play over the top of it.

 

It'd keep the tempo a lot more accurately and you'd still have the drummer to do creative fills.

 

Just an idea. I was wondering if anyone had tried it.

[Davo-London]

AA) My drum instructor told me a tale about a bassist he played with in a pro big band. Most of the time the bassist would rush. When it all got too much, my drum instructor asked for a rehearsal with just the bassist. He then put on a click track. The rehearsal was great and the bassist spot on. The bassist was really grateful for the lesson. Then they went back to the normal band rehearsal and ... you guessed it - he was back to his old tricks. Their friendship faltered at this point and then later fell apart.

 

BB) Telling someone their timing is out is not an easy issue. Plenty of my fellow keyboard worshippers never play with a metronome and so they always pause at the end of each vocal line.

I then say "let's do it without a drummer it'll sound better". This is my humble opening line to get around to the difficult conversation.

 

CC) Starting a song at exactly the right tempo is very difficult indeed and gives me the shivers. I tend to sing the chorus in my head to get the tempo.

 

As I say, let's not bash the drummer, if you think you have perfect timing ...

 

Davo

[picker]

What did you do with the body?

 

Hung it by the door for the next guy to see.

 

Good move. :grin:

[Phil W]

In my very humble opinion, a drummer should be able to keep time.

 

I'm in total agreement. I think it should apply to all musicians though, including singers and horn players. Of course, few of us are perfect but everyone should work on it. I find sometimes this is affected by emotional factors.

[Phil W]

Davo, the singing the chorus in your head tip is a good one for setting the tempo.

[DavidMPires]

Me and my drummer had an extra reharsal the other day full band reaharses every other saturday morning during 4 hours, which is good to play relax and chat about life in general.

 

 

Regarding with the guy wanting to watch a program on sunday, that's he's choice, my band knows I don't do reaharsals on sunday's, but I make sure that whenever I go to the studio I know where I am stating and that I learn ll my parts properly.

 

This said, maybe you should have a talk with him out of the studio.

 

And if the band is not that bad, it will only be good to go and play out.

 

 

[mcbn]

As I say, let's not bash the drummer, if you think you have perfect timing ...

 

Well, my timing isn't perfect, but it isn't really too bad. I can hold a solid tempo through the verse, pick it up during a chorus, slow it down for a bridge and end on the 3 to leave the audience hanging.

 

I'm not a flashy player but I have this groove that flows through me. I can feel time much better than I can count it. I've been complemented on this trait and it is really the reason that I landed an Alt. Country gig with only having a Rock/Metal background.

[Rocky McDougall]

I think with most new players, they are concetrating so intensly on their own playing, and getting it right, that that don't hear the beat that the drums and bass have established. The drums and bass should never "chase after" the rest of the group. Keep the time as constant as possible and let the others find the groove.

Rocky

[Eric VB]

AA) Plenty of my fellow keyboard worshippers never play with a metronome and so they always pause at the end of each vocal line.

All good points Davo, but I wanted to append to this comment.

 

Anybody that comes from a background of playing primarily solo runs the risk of this ailment. I know guitar players that do the same thing, so it's not just keyboardists, although keyboardists do tend to have more of a "I can accompany myself and don't need an ensemble" attitude that comes from the nature of the instrument. Nearly an 8 octave range; ten independent fingers to play bass, harmony/counter and melody simultaneously; and a sustain pedal to sound even more notes simultaneously. It's a monster of an instrument, but in a good way.

 

I write some parts for keys. Usually they are simple horizontal parts, e.g. one voice melody. A pianist listened to one of my songs and complained that piano is not played that way. Well, in my world one-hand monophonic piano is perfectly acceptable. Why does the left hand have to play bass and chords if there is a bassist and guitarist(s) already covering those parts in the ensemble? Sure, if the star of the group is the pianist -- Elton John, Billy Joel, Norah Jones, etc. -- everyone is just backing up the piano. But if the piano is just backing up the group ...

 

You can have a piano (or other keyboard instrument, such as harpsichord) play just fine with a large orchestra, a swing big band, etc., but try to get two pianos to play a duet and it's nearly impossible.

[/vent_off] (I'm sure the KC crowd will roast me alive for this one. )

 

Anyway, yeah, singer/songwriter types with a guitar in their hands that have only ever played solo gigs can have problems integrating with an ensemble, too, because of timing issues.

[Gruuve]

(Here I am Davo!)

 

Heh...there's one drummer that I deal with who can't keep time. He's either loud and rushing or quiet and dragging. And I have difficulty pushing/pulling him when I'm on bass...not only is he rushing or dragging...he's not listening to everyone else either. It's really distracting to play with him. We all do this to some extent of course...but the question is "how much is acceptable vs. unacceptable?".

 

In all fairness to drummers...I find that it's much harder to LISTEN to everyone else when playing drums (versus when playing bass). Particularly with acoustic drums (versus electronic), you're making a lot of noise around yourself and you've got all limbs moving...it can be a lot to think about. I also find it harder to remember the structure of songs that are new to me from drums moreso than bass. Also, drummers often expect everyone to follow them tempo-wise, even if they're wrong, because that's what they've generally been taught.

 

However, all that said, it still doesn't excuse poor playing. A "musical" drummer will not only have solid tempo's...he/she will also listen and respond to what's going on around them, and won't overplay nor underplay either. (I personally think underplaying is just as bad as overplaying...leave out some subtle things sometimes, and the drums just don't work!)

 

Sounds like you made the right choice, Ross...

 

Dave

 

[mcbn]

 

loud and rushing

 

I have difficulty pushing/pulling him when I'm on bass...

 

he's not listening to everyone else either.

 

Ugh.

[Ross Brown]

This drummer had a variable memory on song structure, but usually he would just blow through/step on other instrument parts including the vocals. I would often think to myself, has this guy ever listened to this song? He made notes but never looked at them or remembered what he wrote down. I started putting the songs structure notes right on the set lists on the wall in large print for all to see. Didn't make any difference. Some of it was style. Some ego? This is all fine and dandy, but the huge issues were his keeping inconsistant time and not wanting to work harder at improving. He was also so out of shape that he couldn't cut the music. He would just try to survive the song. If he had had a better attitude, I am fairly confident that we would have worked with him.

[Nicklab]

Issues like this might all go away if we could just clone great drummers like Bernard Purdie, Dennis Chambers, John Bonham, et al and share them between the lot of us. ;D

[EddiePlaysBass]

Maybe start hanging out at the local high schools and colleges.

 

You can get arrested for that kind of behaviour

 

I thought that I had learned to ask better questions in auditions. I want to play with people that want to play and play well. A lot of people respond to ads for musicians that haven't given much thought to what they are agreeing too. I agree that I must accept responsibility for poor "hiring".

 

Thanks for pointing it out.

 

Ross, wanna work on that? I recently went to a job interview, and afterwards I made a lot of notes. About the interview, about what I said (both good and bad), which parts of my resume they were interested in, which questions came up for which I had trouble getting answers, which questions I should have asked. But also notes about the guy interviewing me: what he was like, his body language, his clothes, general behaviour during the interview and so on.

 

Now, the idea is to do this with every job interview that I do (including auditions for bands), and with every appraisal I will receive from my team leader and manager from my current employer.

 

What will I achieve by doing that? Learning from my mistakes. But rather than relying on memory, I'll have my mistakes written down, along with what I consider or have come to see as my strong points. I made notes of things I should have done (better preparation, this and that question that I forgot to ask and so on). With every interview, application, audition and appraisal meeting that will pass and which I'll write down, I'll have more material to learn from. I am confident it will help me get a better understanding of my strong AND weak points.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

CC) Starting a song at exactly the right tempo is very difficult indeed and gives me the shivers. I tend to sing the chorus in my head to get the tempo.

 

D'you think so?

 

I can't see why it should be very different to any other activity. You ask someone if they want a cup of tea and you just SAY it. Your words don't come out in a tangled rush or at the rate of a syllable a minute. You walk down the street and you KNOW how fast you are going to walk. You dont break into a sprint unless you want to.

 

Same as with songs: you remember how fast they are meant to be and you just play them at that speed. Ok, maybe somethimes you are going to be a few BPMs faster or slower, but there's a simple muscle memory at work there. Starting a song at the right tempo sholdn't be THAT difficult.

 

Or is it? I've never noticed it as a problem. Do you guys have a lot of that?

[jeremy c]

Issues like this might all go away if we could just clone great drummers like Bernard Purdie, Dennis Chambers, John Bonham, et al and share them between the lot of us. ;D

 

I don't think a lot of us could handle a drummer like Chambers.

 

And I don't think having a Bonham in my band would be a good idea.

"Hey, Bonham, could you play the next song with brushes? It's get a little loud on stage. And by the way, no drinking at rehearsals or on gigs."

 

Purdie would be fine in my band.

[jeremy c]

What's all this about drummers who can't keep time, who don't know the songs, who play through breaks, cover up vocals, etc., etc.?

 

Those aren't drummers. They are drum owners.

 

Get someone who knows how to play the freakin' instrument.

 

Are there that many groups of people out there practicing one or two nights a week "until we are ready to do a gig"? Seems like I hear about lots of them here on the forum.

 

How long does it take to learn 10 songs per set? My estimate is ten weeks maximum per set. I taught classes for years and years with that kind of schedule. The performances were not always up to "Live at Leeds" standards, but they were fine.

 

If you aren't ready for a four hour gig within a year, you will never be.

 

Sorry for my rant. I started playing in bands in high school over 40 years ago and have been in hundreds of bands in my life. Yes, getting the right people is not that easy. But it shouldn't be as difficult as the travails I am hearing about on the forum.

[Eric VB]

Great points, Jeremy.

 

Sometimes it takes a while to become an established musician, especially if it's approached as a part-time endeavor. Non-established musicians aren't even going to hear about a lot of openings in working bands; those spots get filled by word of mouth among established musicians. What's left are typically startup bands.

 

Startup bands have to resort to classified ads to find members. The audition process can be as comical as TV's American Idol. And that would be on a good day. It's just as likely that nobody responds to the ad at all. After a period of time going without, anybody with a pulse starts to look like a good prospect.

 

Jeremy, how do your students find openings? Do you ever pass opportunities along as their mentor, or do they manage to do well enough on their own? Do they generally go on to music school and make their contacts there? Maybe some of your success stories can shed some light?

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

It's just as likely that nobody responds to the ad at all. After a period of time going without, anybody with a pulse starts to look like a good prospect.

 

Precisely. And there you are, it may have taken you several months to a year to find a drummer and get onto square #1.

 

And then aftr a few weeks of rehearsal, somebody (the drummer, perhaps) starts to say that they don't feel ready to play a gig. Nothing to do with their playing ability, it's a confidence issue.

 

So what do you do? Kick out the drummer that it took you months to find and start over? What becomes of your gig plan then?

 

So you might as well grin and bear it and try to talk the drummer into playing a gig. Pretty please with sugar on top.

 

 

[Phil W]

Jeremy,

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it like that.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Jeremy,

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it like that.

 

Well, band members don't always grow on trees. Lots of people live in areas where certain musicians are hard to find. Sometimes one is forced to make do with what one finds.

[Phil W]

I see that but even with fairly inexperienced players it's possible to get a band to gigging standard without years of twice-weekly rehearsals.

 

[TimR]

Well, band members don't always grow on trees. Lots of people live in areas where certain musicians are hard to find. Sometimes one is forced to make do with what one finds.

 

Doesn't one usually find drummers hanging from trees?

 

Ducks and runs for cover...

[jeremy c]

I have occasionally recommended students for bands.

 

Sometimes bands will have the bright idea of calling up a bass teacher and asking if I have anybody who fits their requirements.

 

If anyone in your town teaches drums, you might want to call them for a recommendation.

 

I taught band classes for many years. The music school put together the bands and more than several bands were founded out of those classes.

 

Many people (myself included) moved to the big city to find other people with compatible musical skills and styles.

 

If you are in a small town and there is only one drummer, then I guess you are stuck with him. The nice thing about that is that the audiences don't have anyone to compare him to.

 

Just book the gigs anyway and if people say they aren't ready, just say, "too bad, we're playing anyway."

 

That will usually motivate someone to practice a little harder.

 

Or quit the band. And that will solve one problem.

[JonathanD]

What should I do?

 

 

Just kidding, I already did it. Anyone know a good drummer?

 

What did you do with the body?

 

I think the quote is

"Friends help friends move.

Real friends help friends move bodies"

Jonathan