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[Luke73]

Hi everybody,

 

I've enrolled in a Certificate IV in music performance at a local TAFE college this year - part time. The subjects I'm doing ATM are Theory 1A, Keyboard 1, and Band performance.

 

(Actually, the college is where I teach Computer Systems Engineering...pretty handy actually )

 

I think it's probably something like what you guys call community college over there?

 

Anyway - the Band performance module is pretty much a Jazz group. We have Piano, Drums, Bass (me ), Saxophone, Clarinet, and Guitar.

 

It's my first time playing anything jazz really - and certainly my first shot at walking bass lines (outside my study that is).

 

We're doing 4 tunes at the moment - one of which is Autumn Leaves.

 

I've been given a chord chart, which is just chords and a melody. I figured it'd be handy, so I've learnt the melody and can play that fine.

 

What I need to do is come up with a walking bass line for this song.

 

The arrangement we're going to have is play through it a few times in a two-feel, with soloists taking solos, and then switch to a four-feel.

 

I'm pretty OK with playing a two-feel bass line on the fly without having to write it down. I'm just playing various roots, fifths 3rds, 7ths, 2nds from each chord throughout the progression. I think it sounds OK. In the two feel I have time to think about it a little.

 

But, when we play the four feel it hurts my brain! LOL It's just too fast for me to think ahead about which notes to play without my brain getting fried, and me getting lost.

 

...so - I figured, I'll write a bass line for the four-feel section, and read it. I'll check with our teacher, I hope it will be fine to do that.

 

Anyway - I've written a bass line, which leads me to the point.

 

I've supplied a link below to a PDF of my bass line.

 

Would some of you kind people mind having a look and telling me if you think it's OK?

 

Of course, any suggestions are welcome if you see that I've done something that just doesn't work anywhere.

 

Of course, I'm going to discuss this with my bass teacher at my next lesson, but I'd appreciate your comments all the same

 

http://www.comcen.com.au/~eberbachl/pics/Autumn%20Leaves.pdf

 

Many thanks,

 

Luke.

 

[Phil W]

Luke,

Yeah, this is a useful exercise (writing out a line). You obviously have some clue about building a walking bassline. It works. Don't worry so much about always having the root on beat one though, you can go with the third, the fifth or even the seventh on the one too which sometimes makes for a smoother line.

Beats one and three are usually basic chord tones and the fourth beat usually leads to the next bar, you've done this fine - the only exceptions being the tritone subs near the ned which are cool and the F naturals on beat 3 of some of the A minor 7 flat 5 bars which work melodically but might be a strong flavour for the soloist and limit their options a little.

The line is basically smooth. I'd avoid the large register jumps at the end of bars which make the line less smooth. I'm talking about bars 2 to 3, 12 - 13, 23 -24 if I counted right. It's fine sometimes. It often sounds smoother for the resister leap to come on beat 2 or beat 4 as in bar 6 or bar 32.

 

However!

You should take these ideas, practise them, and then improvise over the sequence. You won't get better at playing walking lines unless you practise doing it in real time and this is the perfect opportunity.

 

Remember, The main function of a walking bass line is to state the time so keep going even if you're lost. The remember that an overly simple line may not be a problem for the soloists and may actually be easier to solo over. Autumn Leaves is only one chord per bar so for each bar you need to create a little melody or for each two or four bar sequence a longer melody. The only way to do this is by practising improvising and also inversions of all your arpeggios. If you imporvise walking bass over this tune every night it won't take too long to become more familiar. Just think one bar ahead and think "chord tone - whatever - chord tone- leading tone". Go to whatever interval of the next chord that you're closest too at the ned of the previous bar - root, third or fifth and carry on from there. It gets easier. It gest to the point where you don't have to think about it and you just listen to the band.

 

You'll get there, but only by doing it - for real - with other musicians - in the moment!

[Eric VB]

Hey Luke! I'll gladly defer to Jeremy, Phil, and the rest of the guys on this one. But since they haven't responded yet, I'll toss in my chump change.

 

First off, congratulations on entering a formal music education program!

 

Jazz is really about improv. Even if your instructor allows you to write out your walking bass line and sight read it, try to do it the "proper" way instead. You're there to get an education, right? It's probably better to fumble and learn in this environment than after you receive your degree.

 

One of the great things about going back to school later in life is that the professors/instructors seem much more approachable. Definitely visit with your instructor -- during office hours or arrange a time -- prior to your next class if possible. Tell him what you're having trouble with and let him teach you. Most instructors like to teach, especially students that show an interest. (As you are probably aware.)

 

There is that off chance that he may feel you're not prepared enough for this class. Don't take it personally. Besides, you'll probably be better off taking another class -- I'm guessing private lessons -- and then taking this one when you're better prepared. Remember, it's all about learning, and everybody should have your best interests in mind.

 

Off hand my advice to you would be to s-l-o-w d-o-w-n during your private practice sessions. Those quarter notes don't come at you so fast when everything is slowed down. Start at a tempo you feel comfortable with, and then slowly increase it. You've got to train yourself to be able to "look ahead" at the next chord symbol while still playing the one you're on. Eventually it has to be up to tempo, but it doesn't have to start there.

 

It's like riding a bicycle. Most of us started riding pretty slowly, maybe even with training wheels. Gradually as we became more confident we added speed.

 

Another thing that helps is being able to play without constantly looking down at the fretboard. I'm guessing you can already do that because you can sight read at tempo, but I thought I'd throw that out there anyway.

 

For a lot of players, practicing scales until they become so innate you don't even have to think about them to play them anymore helps. Anything to help reduce the time between recognizing the chord symbol, choosing notes and playing them. If you have to stop and think about "what's the 3rd of C major?", and then pause to remember where you can grab a convenient E on the fretboard, it's going to take too much time. It has to be more like a reflex reaction, or at least command less conscious thought.

 

Just practicing a chord chart helps. In jazz, a common chord change is one that goes up a 4th (or equivalently, down a 5th). A common "lead in" is to play the 3rd on the last beat before the chord change, then the 4th which becomes the root of the next chord, e.g. E (Cmaj7) to F (Fmaj7).

 

You may find while practicing improvisation that certain lines really fit certain chord changes well, as above. You could mark your chord chart, as long as you didn't produce a full notation (as you already have). You can also make a mental note. Often together with the visual cue of the chord chart this is enough to recall what you've worked out. Finally, you could commit the song to memory.

 

What? How can it be acceptable to memorize an improvisation but not notate it? Well, theoretically you're memorizing the chord changes, not the note-for-note. This makes it easier because you've cut one step out of the process: reading the chord symbols from the chart. You may also remember certain phrases or passages that you know work well.

 

Isn't it cheating to work out an improv before hand? Well, it's kind of hard not to do that to some extent, really. If you practice a piece enough times to memorize the chart, chances are you've already memorized some phrases to go along with it. As long as you're thinking in terms of chords and not just notes, you should be able to retain some flexibility.

 

Maybe you like a walk down for that Cmaj7 to Fmaj7: C B A G F. If you just remember the notes, though, it might be hard to see that you could also play C B G E F instead. Or maybe C G B E F. Or a chromatic thing like C E G Gb F. Or maybe even walk it up instead: C C D E F. (In this last one it's tempting to throw in a little open string on the swung 8th note prior to beat two, as in C-A C D E F, but don't worry about that until later. And when you do, remember not to overuse it.)

 

Eventually all of the experimenting and practicing leads to the point where you can start thinking measures at a time instead of notes at a time.

[Eric VB]

Phil posted while I was I was typing. Yay!

 

Another thing I'd have to add is you have to have a little bit of that "no fear" attitude a child has. A boy that is comfortable riding his bike doesn't fear jumping a ramp of some sort. In fact, he's inclined to keep making the ramp higher and steeper for more thrills. There's no fear of building it too high; no fear of wiping out and causing a mild to painful injury. There's only the joy of jumping the ramp.

 

Take a little "no fear" attitude whenever you improv. Stay confident. Sometimes it's exciting to see the guy on the high wire fumble a little bit before regaining his balance.

 

If you stumble a little bit while improv'ing, so be it. Just keep pressing on, and enjoy the ride.

[Phil W]

Great advice, RBG.

 

Luke, if you get lost - just play some low notes with a strong walking feeling and listen until you find your place.

 

And there ain't nothing wrong with roots and fifths in jazz!

 

Check this thread for the truth!!!

 

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=203360

[Phil W]

Luke,

Funnily enough, though I've played and recorded this tune for years, I couldn't find a digital example to post for you. Here is a version (in a different key) that I did with a trio backing a group of young children singing the melody. Not sure if it'll be helpful. At least you'll get the idea that you don't have to be perfect.

 

http://www.putfile.com/philwain/media

 

Click on Autumn Leaves - Galaxy Class

 

The pianist is a really fine player called Pete Letanka

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Afrostocracy-Pete-Letanka/dp/B000ASTF26

[TimR]

For a lot of players, practicing scales until they become so innate you don't even have to think about them to play them anymore helps. Anything to help reduce the time between recognizing the chord symbol, choosing notes and playing them. If you have to stop and think about "what's the 3rd of C major?", and then pause to remember where you can grab a convenient E on the fretboard, it's going to take too much time. It has to be more like a reflex reaction, or at least command less conscious thought.

 

+1 for scales.

I've been playing for a few years and only last year did I find out what this nodal stuff was all about. But that also looks like the way to go.

[Luke73]

Many thanks for your thoughtful replies Phil W and RicBassGuy!

 

They're more helpful than you know

Don't worry so much about always having the root on beat one though, you can go with the third, the fifth or even the seventh on the one too which sometimes makes for a smoother line

 

Thanks - I think at the moment I'm having a tendency to play the root on one because it helps me keep my place. At this stage my brain currently thinks along the lines of "root blah blah blah root blah blah blah root blah blah blah root....."

 

When I try to play something other than the root - I keep getting lost. I think because my brain is thinking "root on one", when I play something other than that I forget what the root is

 

I certainly want to do some work there.

 

the only exceptions being the tritone subs

 

Are you talking about the Gmi/C9 Fmi7/Bb7 bars?

 

I'm a little embarrased to admit that I stumbled on that part of the line by accident! I actually didn't know what I was doing. When playing with the group, I got lost, so, to be safe and try and find my place I just went down chromatically until I luckily found my place on the Eb! I thought - hey...that sounded really good. Don't forget that ROFL!

 

I'd avoid the large register jumps at the end of bars which make the line less smooth. I'm talking about bars 2 to 3, 12 - 13, 23 -24 if I counted right. It's fine sometimes. It often sounds smoother for the resister leap to come on beat 2 or beat 4 as in bar 6 or bar 32

 

I think you're right there. I was a bit worried about that. I think I'll take your advice and change those sections a bit.

 

"chord tone - whatever - chord tone- leading tone". Go to whatever interval of the next chord that you're closest too at the ned of the previous bar - root, third or fifth and carry on from there. It gets easier. It gest to the point where you don't have to think about it and you just listen to the band

 

Many, many thanks for that phrase. It's extremely helpful!

 

Jazz is really about improv. Even if your instructor allows you to write out your walking bass line and sight read it, try to do it the "proper" way instead. You're there to get an education, right? It's probably better to fumble and learn in this environment than after you receive your degree.

 

Yes - I agree. I really want to get out there a bit and improvise a walking bass line. I guess I felt like I needed a crutch to get me through this first step. I plan to lose the written line as soon as I can

 

s-l-o-w d-o-w-n

 

Indeed - thanks for the reminder. I all to often try to keep playing these things too fast at home, and get lost all the time. It's very frustrating and I don't think it's constructive.

 

For a lot of players, practicing scales until they become so innate you don't even have to think about them to play them anymore helps. Anything to help reduce the time between recognizing the chord symbol, choosing notes and playing them. If you have to stop and think about "what's the 3rd of C major?", and then pause to remember where you can grab a convenient E on the fretboard, it's going to take too much time. It has to be more like a reflex reaction, or at least command less conscious thought.

 

Yes - I'm writing and practising scales every day. Also working on chords too. One thing I will say is that I'm findinf the keyboard module to be rather helpful in this regard. Learning scales on the keyboard is helping to solidify their content, and learning chords is a huge bonus too! I'm getting pretty decent about knowing 3rds and 5ths pretty quickly, and the others are coming. Bit by bit

 

Isn't it cheating to work out an improv before hand. Well, it's kind of hard not to do that to some extent, really. If you practice a piece enough times to memorize the chart, chances are you've already memorized some phrases to go along with it

 

I always thought that it was - but someone said that very same thing to me recently. I guess the only real improvisation would be if you had never picked up an instrument before and just played what came under your fingers. When we practice we come up with all sorts of little things and pop them into our back pocket for later use. I used to feel like I was cheating doing this...but I think that was pretty silly.

 

Another thing I'd have to add is you have to have a little bit of that "no fear" attitude a child has. A boy that is comfortable riding his bike doesn't fear jumping a ramp of some sort. In fact, he's inclined to keep making the ramp higher and steeper for more thrills. There's no fear of building it too high; no fear of wiping out and causing a mild to painful injury. There's only the joy of jumping the ramp.

 

Great analogy! I remember being that kid, and building the ramp higher and higher, but now the fear is here and the little kid is gone. Where did that little whippersnapper get to?

 

Sometimes I do go "out there" a bit and build that ramp a little higher, but if I crash and burn I think "you idiot...why did you do that? Just keep doing what you know you can do safely..."

 

...gotta work on that!

 

Luke, if you get lost - just play some low notes with a strong walking feeling and listen until you find your place.

 

And there ain't nothing wrong with roots and fifths in jazz!

 

Check this thread for the truth!!!

 

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=203360

 

Thanks for that advice, and for the link - it's a good read.

 

It's like "Jazz Myth-Busters!"

 

Funnily enough, though I've played and recorded this tune for years, I couldn't find a digital example to post for you. Here is a version (in a different key) that I did with a trio backing a group of young children singing the melody. Not sure if it'll be helpful. At least you'll get the idea that you don't have to be perfect.

 

Excellent! I'll have a good listen when I get back into my office .

 

Again...many thanks for the input!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eric VB]

Jeremy and Benloy (and others) are also founts of information on this topic.

 

Here's a nice thread from 2003.

 

Here's a good one from 2002, including sage advice from the recently departed Dave Brown.

 

[Hint: Search these forums with google. Just add "site:musicplayer.com" to the end of your search, e.g. "walking bass site:musicplayer.com".]

[Phil W]

Glad to hear it was useful advice, Luke.

 

One ideas I used to use for improvising lines and not using the roots wa to actually consciously focus on the root and look at it's position on the fingerboard and then when I played a third or a fifth I would have that relation fixed in my head - hard to explain but hope that comes across.

 

Also, playing through your example, I think you can afford to be a bit more chromatic leading through the chord tones. e.g.

 

(Cm7/F7/Bbmaj7)

|C D Eb G|A G Ab A|Bb A Bb B|C etc.

 

I wouldn't stint on learning practising my scales and modes BUT

I would actualy spend more time practising arpeggios inall their inversions. This will have more impact on your walking basslines as when you see Eb7 you won't have to automatically reach for an Eb first.

 

You should practise major, minor and diminished triads in all keys and then extend this to 7th chords of aall qualities. What can be useful in practising is to take a tune (like Autumn Leaves) and play through an arpeggio over each chord at a slow tempo. When you play the next chord just start the arpeggio at the nearest chord tone where you finshed the previous arpeggio and keep going. You can do this with scales too but I think you'll find arpeggios more useful right now. If it's too hard, just slow it down more!

 

Hey, congratulations on that descending sequence then!! You used your ear and played something that sounded cool. That's what it's all about.

 

Also listen to some masters of walking bass and let their time feeling and note choice sink into your subconscious . . .

Ray Brown, Ron Carter, Paul Chambers, Wilbur Ware, Doug Watkins, Leroy Vinnegar, Oscar Pettiford, Percy Heath (especially as he plays fairly simple lines often), Charlie Mingus, Jimmy Garrison, Rufus Reid etc. etc. etc.

 

"It's like "Jazz Myth-Busters!"

Yes, everyone should read that article. Over the years my wallking styles has refined in that it has become simpler both harmonically and rhythmically (though more melodic) and it functions better that way. It's such an incredible art form though (creating walking lines) that I am still a relative beginner.

[Luke73]

Thanks again Phil W and RicBassGuy!

 

 

What can be useful in practising is to take a tune (like Autumn Leaves) and play through an arpeggio over each chord at a slow tempo. When you play the next chord just start the arpeggio at the nearest chord tone where you finshed the previous arpeggio and keep going. You can do this with scales too but I think you'll find arpeggios more useful right now. If it's too hard, just slow it down more!

 

I think that will be very useful Thanks

[jeremy c]

Here are some ideas for an Autumn Leaves bass line. It's of course a great song to work on because it has II V I in a major key and II V I in the relative minor key. If you have things you can play for both major and minor II V I's, you've got a lot of walking bass covered.

 

I teach something that I call walk-ups and walk-downs. The .jpg below will illustrate these. All these patterns move the the next chord in a cycle of fourths....the exact direction that the chords in Autumn Leaves are moving. You'll have to transpose all the patterns to go with the chords of the song...I wrote them all starting on a C (and moving to an F).

 

There are four ways to walk down. Which one you use depends on what chord you are starting on and sometimes what chord you are going to. There are two ways to walk up.

 

I have students play the song alternating walking up for a bar and then walking down for a bar. Then we switch and start by walking down.

 

So the first two lines of Autumn Leaves could be:

(start on low A, either open or 5th fret E string)

|A B C C#|D C B A|G A Bb B|C B A G|

|F# G A A#|B A G F#|E F# G F#|E F# G G#|

or

(start on A either 2nd fret on the G string or 7th on the D string)

|A G F# E|D E F F#|G F# E D|C D E F|

|F# E D C|B C# D D#|E G B D#|E D C B|

 

Here's the exercise:

http://home.jps.net/~jeremy/walkups.walkdowns.JPG

Of course this is only a small part of the possibilities...we have to work on arpeggios and connecting notes as well.

[Eric VB]

Woo hoo! I nailed Jeremy's Maj7 to Maj7 walk down!

 

But I missed on the walk up.

 

In my defense I'll just say that although I do use the 1-2-b3-3 (i.e. C D Eb E) like everyone else, I didn't want to muddy up my previous post with another chromatic example. (Jeremy, is that why you didn't have a chromatic walk down? Like 8-6-5-b5 or 8-7-5-b5. Or do you find these generally less useful than the examples you gave?)

[jeremy c]

Woo hoo! I nailed Jeremy's Maj7 to Maj7 walk down!

(Jeremy, is that why you didn't have a chromatic walk down? Like 8-6-5-b5 or 8-7-5-b5. Or do you find these generally less useful than the examples you gave?)

 

1) I don't particularly like the sound of those examples you gave above. But that's just my ear, there shouldn't be anything wrong with them.

2) If there are four notes to play, and four scale notes work, then that's going to be a preferred choice for me.

 

If I need four notes and there are only three scale notes between chords, I add the chromatic note.

 

It's the only logical solution.

 

http://www.jeremycohenbass.com/spock.jpg

 

[Luke73]

Many thanks Jeremy -

 

I'll have a good look at that when I am home and have my bass in my hands tonight.

 

[Tom Capasso]

When I saw Luke's arrangement, I thought his (kind-of) arpeggio approach was good by design (and for learning), but my ear wanted something more like what Jeremy suggested. When I think of "walking", I don't think of arpeggios (but of course it is a type of walking).

 

And while I like the added chromatic note, I have to disagree - it's not the only logical solution. You can go back to the root and jump the the root of the next chord. Instead of:

1-2-b3-3-4[1 of the next chord] (i.e. C D Eb E F)

you could do:

1-2-b3-1-4 (i.e. C D Eb C F)

This is not unusual in rock parts that move, and is logical also.

 

Luke - this is cool stuff, and I'm happy for your education!

Tom

[Phil W]

I use 1, 2, 3, 5 a lot too with a descent of a whole tone to the nest root. Apologies if this has been mentioned.

 

Basically we're talking about a repertoire of one measure melodies to use to create lines. That's similar to the ideas expressed in these lessons:--

 

http://www.instituteofbass.com/lessons/jim_stinnett/qnm/

(The Quarter Note Melody by Jim Stinnett

http://www.instituteofbass.com/lessons/jim_stinnett/cjbl/

http://www.instituteofbass.com/lessons/jim_stinnett/voice_leading/

http://www.instituteofbass.com/lessons/jim_stinnett/one_chord/

 

 

edited to update the URLs which were changed by the site.

[jeremy c]

Great links, Phil!

 

Tom, my Vulcan logic was of course delivered tongue-in-cheek.

 

There are many logical walking bass lines.

 

I teach this stuff all day long. 1231, 1235 are good choices. I usually only use 7 when walking down a scale...that's the main point of the examples I posted.

 

For those of you who can't read notes but know your scale intervals, the examples are:

8 7 6 5

8 b7 6 5

8 b7 b6 5

8 b7 b6 b5

 

Here a few more good links.

 

244,140,625 jazz blues bass lines in F

244,140,625 jazz blues bass lines in Bb

 

There are lots more possibilities than those numbers. With only a little bit of thought, I can come up with at least three or four more ideas for each measure. That jumps the total number up significantly.

[Luke73]

Thanks again guys

 

Phil - your links aren't working for me, but I went to the institute of bass homepage, and found the lessons.

 

[Phil W]

Cool mate, there are some great lessons on that site.

 

They changed the URLs on me - I will go and fix them now!