Making the transition from bedroom to stage

[JasonDW]

My band is getting ready to start playing out this spring. We're a four-piece classic rock cover band with drummer, bass, a female lead singer / keyboard player, and me on guitar. I've been playing for about 15 years but this is going to be my first time making it out of a bedroom, basement, or atic and I'm trying to figure out what I'll need to do to upgrade my rig.

 

For practice / recording I play through two small tube combos, a fender blues junior (for lower gain stuff) and a mesa/boogie subway rocket (for higher gain). We'll be playing relatively small venues (bars), the bass player has a fairly high wattage dual-cab setup and the singer / keyboard player has a small PA system that's suitable for amplifying her but probably not much else. I'm trying to figure out what my amplification strategy should be:

1 - Get a head and 4x12 cab (like a marshall DSL50) or a larger combo (like a mesa lonestar 2x12) and don't worry about a PA

2 - Get a PA with enough power / inputs for the whole band and mic one of my small combos

3 - Some combination of the two (get a bigger amp and plan to run it through a PA)

 

I'm pretty sure option 3 will give the best sound but is also obviously the most expensive. I'm not sure what all the pros and cons of options 1 and 2 are and I'm particulary not sure how we would handle monitoring in each case. Can anyone offer some advice? I know a lot of you have serious professional setups and soundmen but this is going to be a pretty amateur operation and I don't want to spend a huge amount of money. I do want us to sound good and be able to hear ourselves clearly enough to play well.

 

Thanks in advance,

Jason

[Strategery]

Well Jason, most importantly.... Stuff a big old Baking Potato in yer pants.

Just make sure you put it in the FRONT...and not the back!! :grin:

http://www.thepoorhouse.org.uk/files/images/potato.jpg

 

After that, as long as you're playing small clubs, you could actually get by with something smaller.

1/15's with horns or add a 1/18 sub on each side.

Just stick a mic in the bass drum for a good kick.

 

When we play small clubs, I just take my Mackie 808S with 2 cabs that have 1/15's and horns.

You can get away with that with a little louder stage volume and a bass player with a nice rig.

I've seen bands that ROCKED with a set up like this!

 

If you start getting to bigger venues then you're going to have to invest in larger gear. Not much you can do about that.

 

Good luck and let us know how it works out!!

 

Randy S.

 

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/tn/3/9/8/232398.jpg

 

 

[A String]

Yup, I think option two is your best bet. Get a nice board and PA system.

 

I recommend Yorkville Sound and JBL systems. They are great little starter systems and have a fairly good resale value for when it's time to upgrade.

Something like this:

http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=36&cat=39&id=258

or this,

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ESystem10/

 

Here is a list of different systems and costs, just to let you know what else is out there:

http://www.zzounds.com/cat--PA-Systems--2746

[mdrs]

Hey Jason....good for you, and have fun playing out!!

 

Good advice so far. I'd bet Ellwood will chime in eventually. He's a road warrior (LOL!!), and will surely give you some good advice and options here.

 

If you like your current tone, then the PA and mikeing your amps sounds good, as long as you will be able to hear yourself in the mix while you are playing.

 

Personally, I like the idea of a half stack!! Go big, or stay home!!! :grin:

 

You could get a good used 50 watt head of your liking, and you can find used Marshall 2x12 cabs that sound great. My son plays a JCM-800 100 watt reissue thru a Marshall 2x12, and it is tone bliss!!

 

Have Fun!!

 

Oh Ellwood!! Ellwood!! Paging Ellwood!!! :grin:

[miroslav]

"Making the transition from bedroom to stage"

 

Leave your bedroom slippers behind.

 

No matter what the gig...act like pros, look like pros and try to sound like pros.

 

You may not get the gear and the sound right off the bat...but you certainly can approach it as pros right from the start.

And while that whole "I-just-got-done-cutting-my-grass-and-didn't-have-time-to-change" look seems to be popular with a lot of new bands, especially those doing the small gigs...

.."putting on the Ritz" even a little, so that you stand out from the crowd...so that when you are at your gig, you look like a member of "THE BAND"...and not the dishwasher...will only do you good in the long run.

Not talking about spandex and big hairjust a little polish and cleanlinessa little style and a little flash.

 

Image means a lot.

You want the crowd to see you guys as something speciala little out of reach

and not like anyone can do it.

 

[Dr. Ellwood]

In many ways Miro has identified one of the most important and inexpensive factors that can start to help your band build a reputation of professionalism! Be as attractive in your dress and on and off stage attitudes as you can, and always be aware that you are different than your audience and you are working for the club owner and yourselves!at this stage of the game your #2 is the best choice by far. Good luck, have fun and watch the money and take care of the business of music, approach the club owner as a employee of his, make him feel you are ready to help him elevate his business and in that you will be helping your band to gain experience and a following. For young band especially,be very careful of how you interact with the audience! be careful of what you say or imply to the audience and whoever is doing the MC part of the act, make them aware of keeping a high degree of professionalism, do not swear, do not refer to the wait staff except in a respectful way, never pit the owner against the audience or put him in a awkward situation with the audience, if you owner asks you to adjust your volume do it without question! EDIT: another thought, think about using your singers small PA AS your on-stage vocal monitoring system.

[Strategery]

Half a can of mousse on yer hair and a little make up would do it! :grin:

 

Hey, just look at how far it took Boy George! MWAHahahahhahahaha

You could even get on the Rosie show.

 

http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/story.taboo.ap.jpg

 

Dewd.... just be yourself. That's who you're most comfortable with.

After all, you're out there to have FUN...and if you make a little change on the side....that's just icing on the cake.

 

Just check out the musicians that stand the test of time.

They did it by being THEMSELVES.

 

Get the gear you need to get started, then take your music money and invest in better gear. Let your hobby/passion for music pay for itself.

 

Hang in there.... and have FUN! That's why we started playing, and should be WHY WE PLAY!

 

Randy S.

[Dr. Ellwood]

So what are we saying here? If your a slob in everyday life just continue being a slob on stage? is that it? Bands and musicians that have some pride in what they take to the stage, no matter what stage it is are still professionals, those of US who have been doing the business of music and entertainment know that. Those that haven't should be careful of vague light hearted generalities in their advice, althought I can see how easy those ideas flow when YOU have nothing invested in live performance!

[Strategery]

Actually, not to be misunderstood, I was just having a little fun with the humor above. :grin:

 

There IS a lot to be said for cleaning up.

The "6 months between baths" look is getting old.

Also, "Team Satan" has just about worn out their uniqueness. hahahaha :grin:

 

Could you imagine a musician....actually being worthy of the name.... Role model?

 

GOd forbid. :grin:

 

Imagine, Musicians, getting out there, actually CARING about their music and their fans...instead of the Almighty DOLLAR.

Playing some KICK ASS music that they worked hard on by sitting down and learning their craft...then taking the time to write a meaningful song.

 

I wonder if we'll EVER see that day come around again.

I for one....sure miss it.

 

No...I'm not stuck in a time warp. In fact...I can't stand people that do that.

I like all kinds of music from many time periods.

But the ones that stick out you can tell.

 

I'm just saying that being yourself...is unique, as not too many allow themselves to be that nowdays in the music business.

Far too many are too busy styling themselves after the present trend....which is BS.

 

Randy S.

 

PS... Take care not to take yourself too seriously and get all wound up in it. After all, we're all professionals at something. :grin:

 

[Eric VB]

I've noticed the guitarists in a lot of smaller venue acts are just using 2x combos. My first thought is always, "Is that thing going to be loud enough?" I'm used to seeing Marshall full- or half-stacks. But indeed those combos are up to the task, and if they're not, they get sent through FOH.

 

I don't remember seeing anybody on stage with only a 1x combo, but maybe I don't pay enough attention.

[Strategery]

Yep, you're right.

 

I used to have a Fender Twin Amp, which is a 100w-high gain, 2/12 amp.

 

Geez....that thing weighed almost 100 lbs and was so loud it could make you sterile!!

 

Thank God for those tilt back legs to give the folks up front a break. haha

 

Randy S.

[Dr. Ellwood]

"PS... Take care not to take yourself too seriously and get all wound up in it. After all, we're all professionals at something."

 

Yeah, in THIS case we are talking about the music business specifically aren't we? so it follows that we are talking about being professional in music, what does being professional in other business have to do with this subject? So here we have a young man trying to take his band out for the first time and WORK! and his first time on stage, we are trying to help him wit h SPECIFIC things that can help him, and your advice is be yourself? and have fun? as if you can't have fun by acting professional and dressing in a professional manner? of coarse you can! Yes I take myself seriously,I take this business seriously and I am successful because of it. Is music all about fun? heck no it's not..not always just like any other business, but like any other well run business it can be satisfying and rewarding and something to be proud of Go tell someone else to not take themselves or their business seriously, if you like to come of as all loosey-goosey about music that's fine but don't give a young guy the idea that having fun and being themselves is all there is too it, he will soon find out that is just not true.

 

 

[mdrs]

I've noticed the guitarists in a lot of smaller venue acts are just using 2x combos. My first thought is always, "Is that thing going to be loud enough?" I'm used to seeing Marshall full- or half-stacks. But indeed those combos are up to the task, and if they're not, they get sent through FOH.

 

I don't remember seeing anybody on stage with only a 1x combo, but maybe I don't pay enough attention.

 

Here's one guy that did;

 

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m114/mdrs1/SRV.jpg

 

I think it's a 15" Vibroverb.

[Dr. Ellwood]

OR: one of these MIGHT work LOL! http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b48/ellwood1/proext003resize.jpg

[Strategery]

 

Hey Jason, don't mind me and Elwood. We're just having a little creative difference. :grin:

 

Geez...we're not anyone's dad for crying out loud.

If it's not fun, why do it, especially when it comes to music.

That's akin to saying....Sex....you should take it seriously, not have any fun. hahaha :grin:

 

Anyone that makes a dime at anything is going to give it the attention it requires in the first place.

 

But a Crowd...can tell if you're not having fun, which COULD affect your profit.

After all, you're entertaining a crowd. The crowd is there to have fun.

Shouldn't the musician help out but having fun him/herself?

 

Musicians and people feed off each other, therefor, You have fun, they have fun.

 

It's MUSIC....not a day in factory. :grin:

 

Hey Elwood... I'm really not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers here.

It's just after over 30 years of playing music or doing anything for that long, you realize why you do it.

Look at all the MISERABLE millionaire musicians out there.

Geez, what a way to go through life.

I dare say if you asked any of them when they had the most fun playing their music, they'd say...."Dewd, when we first started out and had nothing, climbing the ladder to the top."

That's all I meant.

 

Randy S.

 

 

 

[Dr. Ellwood]

Yeah ok, whatever you say, I guess those two guys in your avatar say it all, if that's the approach to music you want to take, sounds good to me.

[Strategery]

OUCH.... one last dig.

 

I guess there's a message in there as well. :grin:

 

I'm a happy person. That's how I live my life.

I don't feel the need to insult. Sorry.

Have a great day!

[Dr. Ellwood]

"Have a great day!"... I always do, just trying to help the guy out, he can make up his own mind what makes more sence.

 

 

[Strategery]

Exactly.

[b3_john]

Back to the original post, if you like the tone of both of your smaller amps, there is no reason you couldn't mike each amp using a simple A/B switch to go between them. If your sound is defined by the tone you are getting, then don't go buy something *different* just to play out.

 

Its possible to buy PA stuff for FOH at smaller clubs that will still suit you well as stage monitors if and when you move to larger places.

 

As for new guitar amps, remember that a good 40 watt tube amp into a 2x12 can be VERY LOUD, believe it or not sometimes too loud for smaller venues like you may start out in. And a 4x10 or 4x12 really increases the volume of air moving. I've seen bands as recently as last weekend where the guy with the classic 100 watt head into the 4x12 halfstack can't turn up past "one", so he's completely dependent on pedals for his tone and might as well be playing into a PA.

 

Just one guys opinion.

 

John

[miroslav]

Just to make one point...

 

You can have fun...and be yourself...and still do it as a pro, with some style and a little flash.

 

People want to be "taken" somewhere special when they listen to good music...when they go to see a show...to hear a good pro band play... to be entertained.

Seeing a bunch of grungy guys in their dirty ripped up jeans and stained T-shirts doesn't really do much to "take" anyone anywhere. Where not talking about putting on some uniforms and getting "dressed up" to the point of being uncomfortable.

 

I know there's a lot of well-known bands that still follow that grunge look...and hey, they have an audience. But I still think that for the acts that play a similar kind of music, but with a little style in their image...well, they're a bit more memorable...IMO.

It's not about putting on costumes...but just lifting yourself a cut above the crowd.

Though for some...that may seem negative...?

 

[Strategery]

Agreed.

 

I used to like to watch bands like Huey Lewis and the News in the 80's with their skinny little ties, sun shades, and casual jackets.

Get the horn section making some little steps together and you got something.

Hell, even Stevie Ray had his own little Schtick...but it took getting off the booze and drugs as well to get his act really together.

 

The Glam stuff really didn't do too much for me though.

 

Never really understood Gwar or Marilyn Manson. :grin:

 

One of the coolest concerts I ever saw was on the beach in Panama City Fl.

I was doing some work down there and I found out that Pat Benetar was playing at Spinaker's on the beach.

 

The stage was on the beach so their backs would be toward the ocean and only held about 800 people or so.

When showtime came, they simply walked out on the stage and chatted with the crowd for a minute or two before they started, to big applause of course.

You got the feeling you were one of them, that's how cool and laid back they were.

Of course, they commenced to kicking some serious ass and were amazing.

But they were VERY unSTAR like. I've never seen anything else like that since.

In between songs you could holler something out to them and they'd answer you.

 

One of the coolest music experiences I've ever had.

 

 

[JasonDW]

Back to the original post, if you like the tone of both of your smaller amps, there is no reason you couldn't mike each amp using a simple A/B switch to go between them. If your sound is defined by the tone you are getting, then don't go buy something *different* just to play out.

 

Its possible to buy PA stuff for FOH at smaller clubs that will still suit you well as stage monitors if and when you move to larger places.

 

As for new guitar amps, remember that a good 40 watt tube amp into a 2x12 can be VERY LOUD, believe it or not sometimes too loud for smaller venues like you may start out in. And a 4x10 or 4x12 really increases the volume of air moving. I've seen bands as recently as last weekend where the guy with the classic 100 watt head into the 4x12 halfstack can't turn up past "one", so he's completely dependent on pedals for his tone and might as well be playing into a PA.

 

Just one guys opinion.

 

John

 

Thanks for all the responses. I'm sorry to see this started a bit of an argument (one of the things I like about this forum is that its generally very civil). It seems the consenesus is that I should put money into a dencent PA first, and then probably a bigger amp later. Another option I'm considering is an extension cab for my boogie. I'm pretty happy with the tone of that amp and I centainly get pleanty of volume for practice. Would it be ridiculous to run a 20 watt amp through a 4x12? Would it make the amp significantly louder? Is it likely to give me a "bigger" sound (more approriate for AC/DC, led zep, G'nR, etc)?

 

I'm thinking if I picked up a Marshall 1960A that might hold me over until I had some gig money to buy the head to go along with it.

 

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/jasondweiss/rocket.jpg

[mdrs]

I used to run a Mesa Boggie Mark IV thru a 1960A, and it sounded big. You could also consider a Marshall 2x12 cab....less coin, and they sound great as well.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

The biggest thing to remember is that the audience came to be entertained, and they really -want- to like you. Give them a chance.

 

So if you communicate with them, and if you play through your mistakes, and if you take things in good humor, you'll have a good time and so will they, and even if -you- don't, they still may.

 

A friend of mine's daughter wanted to be a backup singer. We took her up on stage one night when she was like, 14 or 15. She was petrified, and kept looking at me like a deer in headlights and shrugging her shoulders because she did not know what to do. I took her aside and told her the above statement, and I also showed her the "Backup Singer Strut" (think, the girls who sing for Pink Floyd....) and told her that the only way the audience would ever know that she made a mistake is if she let them know. But if she did everything with confidence and as if she meant to do it, NO ONE would ever know. It worked. She rocked on the next set. I don't know what she sounded like, and really, who cares? But she was all attitude and coolness, and she had the best time.

 

The point is, we can each be our own worst enemies, or our own best support group.

 

Bill

[mdrs]

Not that this has anything to do with anything, but.....

 

Imagine the hits this thread is taking from web surfers looking for porn..........

 

Carry on gentlemen..........

[Bluesape]

Well Jason, most importantly.... Stuff a big old Baking Potato in yer pants.

Just make sure you put it in the FRONT...and not the back!! :grin:

http://www.thepoorhouse.org.uk/files/images/potato.jpg

 

After that, as long as you're playing small clubs, you could actually get by with something smaller.

1/15's with horns or add a 1/18 sub on each side.

Just stick a mic in the bass drum for a good kick.

 

When we play small clubs, I just take my Mackie 808S with 2 cabs that have 1/15's and horns.

You can get away with that with a little louder stage volume and a bass player with a nice rig.

I've seen bands that ROCKED with a set up like this!

 

If you start getting to bigger venues then you're going to have to invest in larger gear. Not much you can do about that.

 

Good luck and let us know how it works out!!

 

Randy S.

 

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/tn/3/9/8/232398.jpg

 

 

 

DO NOT BAKE THE POTATO BEFOREHAND!!http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/reifspano/Smileys/shocked.gif

[b3_john]

Jason, I know a guy locally who plays a strat into a Mesa Lonestar Special (5/15/30 watt class A) with the 4x10 cabinet and I'm always amazed at how much SPLs that thing puts out cranked up and the great tone it has. IMO I don't think you quite get that same cranked poweramp crunch from pedals.

 

Don, I can only imagine how good that would sound into a 1960A! Talk about your gear porn... :grin:

 

John

[Strategery]

Hey Jason, you already know this, but one of the most fun things about playing in a band is the BS!. hahaha

 

Lot of good carrying on between bandmates for sure.

The jokes, the jamming, the pranks.

 

I dare say you've got nothing to worry about.

[Gruupi]

I have a question Jason. In your practices is the sound balanced? Can you hear the vocals, thats the main thing. Are the drums overpowering, if so you might need a little more PA. If the sound is balanced in practice, why not just use your current gear setup. People in small clubs aren't there to be blown away by a huge loud PA. They are there to see friends and have a good time.

 

If one member of the band is overpowering everyone else, then get him/her to turn down. Instead of people constantly upgrading gear to compete with each other, find a comfortable overall band volume/ mix and stick with it. An 18 to 30 watt amp should be all you need in a small club without micing it. If you need to put it up on a chair so you can moniter yourself then fine. Just remember it will be very hard for the singer to sing if she can't hear herself.