BP Mag 1996 String Shootout - String tension

[Gruuve]

Hey folks:

 

OK, I've heard a rumor that a BP Mag string shootout from 1996 has some tension ratings. I'm searching BPMag's site, but I'm not getting any hits from their search function. Anyone happen to have a URL handy? (I'm hoping that have something that old listed...I know they have stuff from 1997 online.)

 

Oh, and if anyone happens to know of any other source of string tension comparison, please post it up!

 

Dave

 

[JonathanD]

Keep this thread updated till there is a link please. I would also like to get some info along these lines.

Thanks Dave.

Jonathan

[Gruuve]

I've posted a question about this over on the BP Editor's Office forum. I can't even find the 2004 string review on BP's site, and I know it's there. That search function just ain't too darned friendly!

 

I've also asked Jonathan Herrera if he can and will post the recorded string samples from the Dec 2004. Sound is hard to describe in words...why not post the audio, right? If you agree with that request, show your support with a post on that thread...here's the URL:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1709659/page/1#Post1709659

 

Dave

 

[butcherNburn]

I would guess a lot of the specs may have changed in 11 years.

[Gruuve]

BNN...true, but I figure old information is better than no information!

 

Dave

 

[jeremy c]

Do you know the month and year of the issues in question?

 

I have every BP magazine ever printed.

 

Let me know, maybe I can xerox the pages you want and mail them to you.

 

Note to any BP people watching: is that legal under the copyright?

[TimR]

2004:

http://www.bassplayer.com/story.asp?sectioncode=21&storycode=4037

 

[Gruuve]

OK, after re-reading some "the Green One's" old threads (old-timers know who I'm talking about), I ran into Greenboy over on TalkBass. I've gotten a spreadsheet from him that uses the scale length (known), the frequency of the note you want to tune to (known), and the unit weight of the string (???) as inputs and returns the tension in in-lbs. Cool...now if I can just figure where the heck he got the unit weights of the strings...

 

Anyway, based on GB's old thread I'm gathering this: given that there's only certain sizes of raw materials for string makers to use and only a couple variations of how to wind a string, it looks like strings of the same type (say, roundwound stainless steel on hex core wire, or roundwound nickel steel on hex-core wire, or flatwounds on hex-core wire) and of the same guage (say, .130 for a B-string, or 0.45 for a G-string, etc.) will generally have approximately the same tension when tuned to the same note on the same size scale. I've got a question out to GB to see if my interpretation is correct. If it is, that essentially means that you can approximate the tension of strings of the same type using only the guage. There's obviously other factors that effect tension (like the exact metal alloy, heat treatment or the opposite, quite a long list in fact). If I've understood him correctly, that's pretty cool. That mostly jives with what my hands tell me.

 

Now, the trick here is figuring out what guages result in a well-balanced set of strings (tension-wise, not necessarily sound-wise). If the above is true...then we can use one known source of string tension data (D'Addario is one...there might be others), and extrapolate it to other mfg's for similarly mfg'd strings. Pretty cool huh? It won't be 100% accurate, but who cares. I doubt I can feel the difference between 40 in-lbs and 45 in-lbs, but I know I can feel the different between, say, 30 in-lbs and 50 in-lbs of tension (say, a light-guage B-string versus a heavy guage D-string).

 

What triggered all this? I put some ultra-light guage Dean Markley Nickel Steels on my fretless, and I really like how that lighter guage feels, compared to for instance the bridge cable-sized DR Fat Beams I have on my Tobias. I'm thinking of dropping to a lighter guage on the Tobias...it would force me to continue working toward playing with a lighter touch, reduce effort for slap, allow me to raise the action a little bit and get rid of some of the unwanted buzzes that I sometimes get (as opposed to intentional grind and grit), and likely result in a B-string that's a little brighter sounding. Sounds like quite a few compelling reasons to drop down a guage or two, doesn't it?

 

Dave

 

[Gruuve]

Hey Folks:

 

I was having an email conversation about string tensions with Jim Clark at JustStrings.com. Here's the string tensions for their house brand bulk strings. He can't say who the mfg is...only that it's a major mfg and that they sell this house brand much cheaper than the mfg's branded strings. Since he came up with tension numbers very quickly, I'm going to make a wild guess that it's D'Addario since they publish all their tension numbers.

 

The bulk strings look to be about a 50% discount off their sets of house strings, which is some additional discount off of the same mfg's name-brand strings. It looks like you could get about 6 sets for a 5-string bass for about $90 or so. That's pretty good pricing, considering one 5-string set is $20 - $40, depending on what brand/model you get. I've never tried their house strings, but it might be worth an experiment. Anyone here using the JustStrings.com house brand, just out of curiosity?

 

Regardless, here are the tension numbers for their house strings (essentially the same for nickel and stainless):

 

B -

.130 (34.5 lbs)

.125 (31.5 lbs)

.120 (29.2 lbs)

 

E

.095 (34.2 lbs)

.100 (36.5 lbs)

.105 (40.5 lbs)

 

A -

.070 (33.9 lbs)

.075 (38.0 lbs)

.080 (42.0 lbs)

 

D

.055 (35.5 lbs)

.060 (42.9 lbs)

.065 (51.5 lbs)

 

G

.040 (33.7 lbs)

.045 (42.8 lbs)

.050 (53.5 lbs)

 

 

You can pull the tension numbers for D'Addario strings off of their website, just in case anyone didn't already know that.

 

Dave

 

[Rocky McDougall]

I refer back to the Dec.04 issure quite often, I don't remember anything in the article about tension. If you could find one, it would be a pretty large database. I think you are going to have to go to each string manufacturer individually.

 

Rocky

[Gruuve]

Cool...got a great answer back from GreenBoy. For reasonable intents and purposes, you can generally (not always) figure that tension will be merely a function of string guage. There's some error involved, but I'd imagine it's probably not enough in most cases to really notice a lot.

 

So, you can pretty much use the tension numbers I posted above (or D'Addarios numbers) to assume that any B-string of .130 guage will have a tension of approximately 35 lbs when tuned to a B0, and likewise for other guages and tuned notes. There ARE exceptions to that (for instance, I know from experience that the B-string in a set of Rotosound Jazz Flats has a lot more tension...feels like the A-string in most sets...it's like a steel bridge cable), but in general this seems like a pretty good rule-of-thumb.

 

Dave

 

[Rocky McDougall]

It makes sense to me that any string with the same "inner gage wire" should require the same tension. The outer windings should not have much effect on the tension of the inner wire.IMHO

 

PS If two or more strings are the same gauge on the "outside" that does not guarantee they have the same gauge inner wire.

 

Rocky

[Gruuve]

Hey Rock...in theory, no...but in practice, yes! Here's why...here's the formula to calculate string tension:

 

T (Tension) = (UW x (2 x L x F)^2) / 386.4

 

UW = unit weight (or weight per inch of string)

L = scale length (34", 35", whatever)

F = frequency in Hertz (tuned to B0, F = 31 Hz or so)

 

The scale length we can assume is a constant as long as we're talking about the same bass. If you use standard tuning the majority of the time, then the frequency numbers will stay the same for each string. The only variable that we can't control is the unit weight...it can vary between mfg's for a .130 guage string (or any of them for that matter). However, since there's only essentially one way to make a string (but plenty of variations of that one way), the unit weights for MOST strings of the same guage will be roughly the same. If you use smaller wire, but want the same guage, you end up with thicker windings, and vice versa, as you've already noted. BUT, if you do that, then the string still ends up with pretty much the same weight/inch.

 

If you do a sensitivity analysis on the formula, you'll notice that the scale length (L) and tuned frequency (F) have a huge impact on the output of the formula (the string tension T), where the unit weight (UW) does not have nearly as large an impact (visually, you can just note that L and F are squared, UW is not). In practice, this means we can mostly ignore the unit weight (or use a reasonable estimate) to get in the same ballpark tension-wise, which is cool. We ain't building the space shuttle...we're just pickin' strings. :-)

 

Dave

 

[Gruuve]

One other thing we should probably note. There's a difference between measured string tensions and "perceived" string tension. That difference is flexibility.

 

A more flexible string will "feel like" it's got slightly lower tension, and a more stiff string will "feel like" it's got slightly higher tension. Agreed?

 

However, the more stiff string is more likely to vibrate in a more enharmonic way (especially at larger guages like most B-strings). So, at least in theory, a more flexible string would "sound better" because of better harmonic content.

 

Dave

 

[_Sweet Willie_]

1. GAUGE.

 

2. String tension is an interesting thing. I am quite familiar with Greenboy's high valuation of even tension across strings and critique of string makers (some exceptions noted, like TIs) defaulting to numbers ending in "0" or "5." It is an empirical thing to figure out what gauges of strings would provide more equitable tension across all strings. It is a subjective question as to whether that similarity of tension makes one's bass more playable or the tone better.

 

3. GAUGE.

 

4. I am now slinging 045-060-080-105-130 DRs on the Fish o' Luv. I'm very pleased with the tone and feel. This is closer to equal tension across strings. Admittedly, I'm not sure the gain in tone and feel is enough to offset the higher price of purchasing single strings vs. string sets. However, I tend to leave strings on for quite a while, so I may suck up the cost differential. Point being -- achieving equal tension is not just an issue of empirical calculation and subjective judgment, but also of financial willingness.

 

Peace.

--S-Dub

 

 

 

 

[Rocky McDougall]

Just out of curiosity I would like to hear a set of strings with no outer winding just to hear the effect the winding has on the tone.

 

I would think that in reality, the weight per inch (or whatever) has very little affect on the tension. But the scale length and wire gauge has the most effect.

 

Rocky

[Gruuve]

Dr. SW...which DR's? I've got FatBeams the same guages on my Tobias, and I can feel a tension difference with those...particularly the D-string, it's the tightest. (Is the Fish O' Luv 34" or 35" scale?) I had LoRiders of the same guages on it earlier, and I don't recall feeling as much tension difference with those as I do with the FatBeams. (And I haven't tried HiBeams on it). I actually don't notice the tension difference that much until I start doing something like triple-pops...then I immediately notice how much more effort it takes on the D-string versus the A-string, etc.

 

And you make an awefully good point about the financial side...DR's and a few other strings are expensive enough in a pre-packaged set...it might not make much financial sense to pick custom guages and order a string at a time, particularly if the tension difference is small enough and doesn't affect your playing. I in no way meant to imply that balanced tension sets are what everyone should be using...rather, I'm just starting to lean that way based on my own preferences. If anyone finds this info useful, then it was worth posting.

 

Rocky...actually, we're pretty much saying the same thing. The unit weight essentially equates to the string guage, for practical purposes anyway. The larger the guage, the more 1" of the string weighs.

 

Dave

 

[_Sweet Willie_]

Sunbeams.

 

GAUGE.

 

G

A

U

G

E

 

gauge

 

Peace.

--Dub $$

 

[TimR]

Dave, just as a point, as you say the UW will have little effect. Obviously for stings of the same gauge there will be little difference, but if you were to compare different gauges;

The unit weight is also a square of the gauge. The weight is directly proportional to the cross sectional area of the string. So as the diameter doubles, the unit weight quadruples.

Note that if you were to try to tune the E0 string up to D1, ie nearly doubling the frequency you would have to quadruple the tension. Hence the D1 string gauge is approximately 1/2 that of the E0.

By my calcualtion the E string should weigh approx 1.6oz for a 34" string. About 3/1000ths lb/in.

[Gruuve]

Good post, Tim. Hey, check D'Addario's site...they list the unit weights for their strings...see how close the estimate is!

 

Dave

 

[TimR]

http://www.daddariostrings.com/Resources/JDCDAD/images/tension_chart.pdf

 

Neat!

 

I've just put some Elites on my bass. 45,65,85 and 105. they're stainless steel, but using that data is quite interesting. All strings tension are approx 40-42 apart from the D which is 48. I wonder why they didn't choose a 80 which would have given a 42 as well. Not that I have noticed a difference.

[Gruuve]

Good question. Two thoughts:

 

1) I think we are USED to having more tension on the A, D, maybe G strings, and thus we don't notice it. (The only reason I notice it is because of some of my odd-ball techniques, like triple-pops...I can tell a big diff on my D-string for instance with that technique...otherwise, I don't *notice* it because I'm so accustomed to the tension differences.)

 

2) I think us human beings are generally more comfortable with something that appears to be consistent. For instance, 45, 65, 85, 105 appears much more consistent that 45, 65, 80, 105...with the guages 0.20 apart one would think it's more consistent. That fact though is that my fingers certainly can't tell the difference in GUAGE between 0.85 versus 0.80. BUT, with something like the triple-pops, my fingers can tell the difference in tension between 0.85 versus 0.80.

 

Regardless, if your tension feels fine to you, then go with what works for you. I think moving to a lighter guage and more balanced tension will work well for me.

 

Dave

 

[_Sweet Willie_]

Dave Sisk, please take note of my prior posts. The word "guage" strikes me as a combination of "guano" and "age" -- making me think not of strings but of old, dried up crap. The word "gauge" makes my mind leap happily into the world of wire thickness and thinness.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

[TimR]

There's some interesting questions on that forum as well.

 

http://www.daddario.com/Discuss/Group23.aspx