My 8 octave "guitar" and the A440 string

[Garry G]

Hello

It was suggested to me a few months ago I post something here about my bass guitar,but I didn't see the point until now.This post is for those interested in this sort of thing.

 

 

Some of you might have seen and already know of this instrument.I commissioned luthier to build this for me.

The bass guitar is a single course 12-string tuned C0 to G4 ,G7 at the 36th fret and C8 at the pickup cover.

 

It is stereo 6 and 6 with an onboard high speed pre-amp that prevents harmonic re-alignment.

 

The low C0 string gauge ranges from a .195,originally introduced by bassist Jauqo III-X and S.I.T. strings.I first used this on my Adler 11-string bass on my CD in 2004. Recently, I have used a La Bella .210.

 

This instrument is where the guitar and bass became one instrument and goes beyond by matching the range of the grand piano and even the Bosendorfer 97-note grand.The neck is less than 3/4" thick making it very playable.I have 8 locations for middle C4.Yes ,all the notes are audible and clear.

 

The instrument's tuning continues in 4ths From C0 up to the G4(392Hz) string.This string ,which has taken 2 years to develope,allows me to tune to an open G4(3rd fret,high e string on guitar) at 32", or an Ab4(415hz).

Although these are thin ,they are tough as nails.

 

This brings me to the point of this post.In developing this string, I found several wires that tune up to A440 on the 25-1/2"-24" guitar scale. That's right,a high A string without fanned frets. I have a stiff version and a "slinky" version.My latest batch of wire is proving to be quite an amazing high A strings.

 

One 8-string guitarist expressed interest in these strings. Would any of you be interested in an A440 plain steel string if I were to make them available?

 

For more info on the Adler 12-string visit:

http://garrygoodman.com/what\'s_new!.htm

 

thanks for reading

[Caevan O’Shite]

Hey, the mad-scientist guy with the wooden aircraft-carrier under his arm! (And I do mean that in a complimentary fashion, too.) Good to see ya again! How's the lap-piano?

 

Hmmmnn, what's the difference between the "stiff" and the "slinky" versions, are they both plain steel, just different gauges?

 

And, just how stiff is "stiff", and how slinky is "slinky"?

 

Just curious, do you use any "taper-wound"/"exposed-core"/"piano-wound" strings in that set, where the core of a wound-string is exposed where it passes over the bridge-saddle, as in some strings by Rotosound and DR?

 

And, I'd like to know more about this "onboard high speed pre-amp that prevents harmonic re-alignment", too...

[Ricardo.]

Err someone translate for me That is to say, why would I want said string?

[Garry G]

Originally posted by Caevan_O'Shite:

[QB] Hey, the mad-scientist guy with the wooden aircraft-carrier under his arm! (And I do mean that in a complimentary fashion, too.) Good to see ya again! How's the lap-piano?

 

I started this thread because of your suggestion on the other thread. Good to see you -the lap piano is moving along.

 

"Hmmmnn, what's the difference between the "stiff" and the "slinky" versions, are they both plain steel, just different gauges?" Both are plain steel.

 

"And, just how stiff is "stiff", and how slinky is "slinky"? "

Stiff in that the string doesn't move much and slinky as in it moved easil when pushed up or down about a 1/4" and bends up a half step, maybe more.

 

"Just curious, do you use any "taper-wound"/"exposed-core"/"piano-wound" strings in that set, where the core of a wound-string is exposed where it passes over the bridge-saddle, as in some strings by Rotosound and DR?"

 

Well the lower two strings are custom made,the S.I.T. .195 has a wound core,and the F#0 .165 has an exposed core. I also use a La Bella .210 to tune as low as G#00 .The rest are G.H.S. Boomers save for the highest three,my own .010, .007 (practically indestructable) and right now my .003 for the highest. For the same note on the guitar scale,I use a .004.4 slinky and a .005 for the stiff version.

 

"And, I'd like to know more about this "onboard high speed pre-amp that prevents harmonic re-alignment", too...\"

 

It's a custom 18v pre amp, 200 volts per millisecond with an output from 2hz-200Khz.

[Garry G]

Originally posted by Starcaster:

Err someone translate for me That is to say, why would I want said string?

If you don't know,then I can't answer that. This post is for those interested in extended range guitars and having a high A strings.

[strangedogs]

Dude - wild experiment - probably makes yer day but I think it's horrible lookin'... That's just my opinion but looks are big to me and this baby looks too "out there" to me to even be taken serious. Let me design the body for ya' - maybe a double neck or something...

[Garry G]

Originally posted by strangedogs:

Dude - wild experiment - probably makes yer day but I think it's horrible lookin'... That's just my opinion but looks are big to me and this baby looks too "out there" to me to even be taken serious. Let me design the body for ya' - maybe a double neck or something...

I am not concerned about the looks(that's hot rod paint),but what music the instrument allows me to play. I take it very seriously and it wasn't intended to be a production line model. Mike Adler designed this as a prototype ,so it is balanaced,so it has the thinnest neck ever made and one you can literally stand on without the neck moving.Depending where you are at musically,this indeed may look "out there". You'll just have to hear it.

[The Geoff]

Give us a smile, Gary!!!

 

(Nice Highland Soldier outfit, by the way!)

 

Geoff

[Garry G]

Originally posted by Geoff B.:

Give us a smile, Gary!!!

 

(Nice Highland Soldier outfit, by the way!)

 

Geoff

That photo was taken in 1973 at Paramount studios in Hollywood,CA. I was contracted to play bagpipes in a battle scene in the movie "Day of the Locust" . Yes,I was hit by a cannon. The costumes came from Western costumes.

 

here's more on the 12-string at Adler:

http://www.adlerguitars.com/12string.html

[Bluesape]

Wow - it sure LOOKS challenging to play. Lemme ask: is it intended for two such instruments in a performance situation, so that bass and guitar parts can be swapped back and forth by both players?

[Garry G]

Originally posted by Bluesape:

Wow - it sure LOOKS challenging to play. Lemme ask: is it intended for two such instruments in a performance situation, so that bass and guitar parts can be swapped back and forth by both players?

That's a cool idea! I originally just wanted a non-transposing instrument so I could enjoy playing out of song books and reading the notes where they were intended to be heard.For example,Bach's Two part invention #1 in C major. It's a piano piece of course , with two independent lines.

I had worked it out on my 7-string bass back in the 80's . I had to drop some lines down an octave because I didn't have the range needed to play it as written.So now,I can just play music without running out of range or having both hands needing the same string two play two different notes.

 

It is stereo so I can play two parts at once,both bass and guitar.

[Caevan O’Shite]

I myself wouldn't likely feel the need for that wide of a range, but I would like to possibly have just a little more range for voice-leading, melodies, bass-notes in chords as well as riffing and such... so, an eight-string, with one upper "A" and one lower "B" on either side of the traditional six strings of a guitar could be cool. Seems simple, by comparison!

 

I've had very, very little time on a fanned-fret/Ralph Novak styled fretboard; too little to even be able to have any opinion at all on the feel and playability of that kind of a design! But I do think that a subtle amount of such "fanning" could help the notes breath a little more naturally in an extended-range instrument, like my proposed eight-string. Not so much that it's obvious at first sight, but just a little difference in overall length; enough to just enhance the overtones and intonation on the extreme basses, and the fundamentals and sweetness on the extreme trebles... say, a half to three-quarters of an inch difference between the nominal scale-lengths of the 1st/"High-A" and 8th/"Low-B" strings...

 

How "bendable" are they? Can they be bent-up by a whole-step? A minor-3rd? And if so, without breaking too often?

 

Hmmn, how would one of those two ultra-light gauges hold up for being tuned to a "G" a whole-step below the stated "A-440", would they be too floppy and/or suffer intonation gremlins? It could be cool to have a seven-string tuned to "Open-G", going D-G-D-G-B-D-G, low-to-high, treating the 1st-string as the added string. (Effectively Open-G with an added High-G, or, you could look at it as a relative to Open-D, tuned up and with an added 7th/low-string...)

 

Seems that these strings could be welcome to electric twelve-string guitarists, too.

 

So, what's the secret to your success? The metal used?

[teddeeh]

so like, how are the streches as u get higher up the neck??? im guessing u dont play the guitar part with a pick? wonderful! just when i thought novax guitars blew my head off about the possibilities of crossover instrument instruments, i read ur post. AMAZING!!!

[Garry G]

Originally posted by Caevan_O'Shite:

I myself wouldn't likely feel the need for that wide of a range, but I would like to possibly have just a little more range for voice-leading, melodies, bass-notes in chords as well as riffing and such... so, an eight-string, with one upper "A" and one lower "B" on either side of the traditional six strings of a guitar could be cool. Seems simple, by comparison!

 

I've had very, very little time on a fanned-fret/Ralph Novak styled fretboard; too little to even be able to have any opinion at all on the feel and playability of that kind of a design! But I do think that a subtle amount of such "fanning" could help the notes breath a little more naturally in an extended-range instrument, like my proposed eight-string. Not so much that it's obvious at first sight, but just a little difference in overall length; enough to just enhance the overtones and intonation on the extreme basses, and the fundamentals and sweetness on the extreme trebles... say, a half to three-quarters of an inch difference between the nominal scale-lengths of the 1st/"High-A" and 8th/"Low-B" strings...

 

How "bendable" are they? Can they be bent-up by a whole-step? A minor-3rd? And if so, without breaking too often?

 

Hmmn, how would one of those two ultra-light gauges hold up for being tuned to a "G" a whole-step below the stated "A-440", would they be too floppy and/or suffer intonation gremlins? It could be cool to have a seven-string tuned to "Open-G", going D-G-D-G-B-D-G, low-to-high, treating the 1st-string as the added string. (Effectively Open-G with an added High-G, or, you could look at it as a relative to Open-D, tuned up and with an added 7th/low-string...)

 

Seems that these strings could be welcome to electric twelve-string guitarists, too.

 

So, what's the secret to your success? The metal used?

Great post!

The 12-string I play has been a developing idea for many years.The original idea was just to have a guitar that was equal in range to a grand piano-of course not every keyboardist uses a 97 or 88-note grand,but I wanted to see if it could be done.

 

So right now,I can play "Straight, No Chaser" in a similar fashion to say , Dave McKenna plays solo piano.I walk bass with either hand and play melody/solo with the other and can jump octaves etc. without any position problems. My application leans more towards the piano music.The 12 is stereo so I can play the bass clean and the "guitar" through effects as well.

 

My 12 is fanned 34"-32' and I forget that it is fanned while playing the" axe" .The highest string is tuned to the G you mentioned,G4 ,392hz at the 32" scale. It is very flexible ,moving from side to side about a 1/4" in either direction.I don't bend too much on the 12-string.

 

Shortening the scale length helps a bit, but it all is in the string.You remember my first post,was asking if anyone tuned their high e (E4) to a G4 or G#4(415hz).

I use an .007 to tune to an E4 at 34". It breaks when i tune up to at F#.The same thing happens when I tune up to G at 25-1/2 inches with the same string. 9 inches didn't help much.

(I know there's a joke here somewhere)

 

The wire I have been developing was initally made for bass.

I gave Al Caldwell some of my .007 wire for his 11-string bass and probably will be sending Jean Baudin some of my .006 wire if his .006 doesn't work for his soon to be finished 12-string bass. His fanned fretboard goes from 34" to 29" and that still makes for a "cheese slicer" Ab4 string-no bending at 29".

 

My A4 strings don't require any fanned fretboard. I had to get a Novak for the 12 because of the exterme range.It has435 note positions.A 7 or 8-string doesn't need to have fanned frets to have an A4(440hz) string.

 

Righ now,the bending is not the greatest with these strings.The .005 seems pretty study for strumming , the .004 bends up about a 1/2 step.It may bend farther,but I haven't pushed it yet because the string just stops .I would have to push harder than I normally would to try to bend it higher. My bass G4 string is a .003 and I am about to test it on my Kramer "Strat" with the Floyd Rose.

 

These strings have allowed me to make a triple octave set for the 4x3 12-string bass at 32", but as far as a 12-string guitar....I have only been able to tune the A4 up to Bb4.

 

The strings don't break that often,just when abused.Keep in mind going higher means faster vibrations and thinner wire.

My .003 lasts about a month of normal playing,which means I have adapted to a wire as thin as a human hair-it's not an .009!

 

 

There is no secret here,I've spent over two years and hours just about every day testing,and then telling my steel guys what I need.It's what stock you start with, the metals involved ,how it's drawn and how the wire is treated and processed. Most plain steel guitar strings have imperfections in the actual shape of the wire.The guy that has been working with me sent me my latest batch of .003 wire. He said "if you asked any wire manufacturer to make this wire(with these specs), they would laugh at you and tell you it can't be done". In short,it has been no small task to get wire like this developed,tinned and ready to use.Yes you can buy stock .006,.005,.004 and .003 and I even have .001 wire! Then watch what happens when you tune them up(if you can).

 

 

.

[Garry G]

Originally posted by teddeeh:

so like, how are the streches as u get higher up the neck??? im guessing u dont play the guitar part with a pick? wonderful! just when i thought novax guitars blew my head off about the possibilities of crossover instrument instruments, i read ur post. AMAZING!!!

Thanks for the positive input!

On the 12-string I really don't bend the .003 at 32' ,but can get nice vibrato. The A440 bends up 1/2 step fairly well going up the neck,so maybe "slinky" was not correct,but I will put on my G4 bass string on(.003) and get back here with the results.

[Caevan O’Shite]

O.K., I take it that it's also round in cross-section, not hexagonal...

 

I meant to ask you that in the previous post, but I managed to forget to...

[Garry Goodman]

Originally posted by Caevan_O'Shite:

O.K., I take it that it's also round in cross-section, not hexagonal...

 

I meant to ask you that in the previous post, but I managed to forget to...

I'm not sure what you are refering to...

The hex wire is usually a core wire for wound strings.These strings are plain steel.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Yeah, I just didn't want to asume anything- I mean, for all I know, yours could be triangular in cross-section, right?

 

For a point of reference here, on six-string electric guitar I'm used to .011" through .050" (with a plain 3rd) standard-tuned, concert-pitch; and for years I played a flat-top acoustic with .014" through .059" sets, again standard-tuned/concert-pitch. (On another electric designated for Open-D tuning (D-A-D-F#-A-D, low-to-high), I run with .012", .015", .024"(w), .028", .038", .052".) How would these gauges and types of wire that you're experimenting with fit-in with those, tension-wise, as "High-G" and "High-A" strings?

 

And, speaking of wound-strings, I've found that I absolutely love the round-cored, compression-wound round-wound strings in the "Pure Blues" solid-nickel wrap sets from DR that I've been using; you should check that design out, I find that they're warm and consonant and have a nice feel when bending or employing vibrato...

[Garry Goodman]

Originally posted by Caevan_O'Shite:

Yeah, I just didn't want to asume anything- I mean, for all I know, yours could be triangular in cross-section, right?

 

For a point of reference here, on six-string electric guitar I'm used to .011" through .050" (with a plain 3rd) standard-tuned, concert-pitch; and for years I played a flat-top acoustic with .014" through .059" sets, again standard-tuned/concert-pitch. (On another electric designated for Open-D tuning (D-A-D-F#-A-D, low-to-high), I run with .012", .015", .024"(w), .028", .038", .052".) How would these gauges and types of wire that you're experimenting with fit-in with those, tension-wise, as "High-G" and "High-A" strings?

 

And, speaking of wound-strings, I've found that I absolutely love the round-cored, compression-wound round-wound strings in the "Pure Blues" solid-nickel wrap sets from DR that I've been using; you should check that design out, I find that they're warm and consonant and have a nice feel when bending or employing vibrato...

I think your .011 must be a very stiff wire for an E4,I use a .009 for Bb3 at the 32" inch scale. So to match that with my strings,I think my .007,which tunes up to "cheese slicer" at an Ab4 at 30" would make A4 at guitar scale. Keep in mind this .007 is much stronger than the .007's now available.Also my .006 would probably work at that tension.Can you bend that .011 up a minor 3rd?

 

As far as your others string sets,I can't tell you. I haven't gotten to wound strings yet.I just realzed wire I had made for my own use works as an A4 string on guitars. I am still working on getting a better C0 and a clear G00 wound string(.195 and .212)

 

The DR strings sound nice.Are they longer than 40"?

[The Geoff]

Originally posted by Garry Goodman:

Can you bend that .011 up a minor 3rd?

 

I'll bend it an open 4th (but it'll hurt!!).

 

G.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Yeah, in most positions I can bend my .011" 1st/"High-E" up a minor-3rd. I don't try that in the lowest positions (1st, 2nd, 3rd frets), though. That's probably pretty understandable!

 

Currently, that's on a Les Paul, with it's forgiving and comfy scale-length of 24.75". But I had played the same on a Strat-stylee at 25.5" for years before that.

 

Truth be told, much more often than not, a whole-step bend is about as high as I need. But that 'bent-up-minor-3rd' capability is kind of like a margin for reference, and an indicator.

 

Anyways, that's me, I like the way the medium and heavy gauges feel and sound and respond, and I play fingerstyle 100% of the time, regardless of style or sound, clean, distorted, whatever.

 

But, many people prefer lighter gauges on an electric guitar, and some do wider bends than that all the time (do ya hear me, Buddy Guy and Reif?)...

 

If you can stir up enough interest, you might be able to steer the seven-string guitar the other way, so's t' speak, with folks adding a "High-A" as the 1st-string, a la Lenny Breau...

[MILLO]

EXCELLENT! Very exciting! Yes, I'm thinking of purchasing a 7-string eletric AND a 7-string classical (nylon/carbon fiber strings), and put high A strings on them, instead of a low B.

 

So YES! I'm interested.

[Garry Goodman]

Thanks for all the enlightening input!

Although I can make music on a guitar,I am really not a guitarist, but a bass guitarist in that I've played 32" or 34" etc. scales for decades.also I have always tuned in 4ths.

 

So in the process of developing a g4/ab4 string for 30"-34" scale,which is still ongoing,I've tried some of the wire on guitar.

 

My .003 is on there now,and I can bend it past the G string but the pitch never changes past a 1/2 step because it is so thin.Same with the .004 and .005. I have a custom .006 I will try next and hopefully it will do more than a 1/2 step and be painless.

Right now,the .003 is tuned to an open Bb4(466.16hz) on the Kramer "Strat".

[Garry Goodman]

Thanks for all the enlightening input!

Although I can make music on a guitar,I am really not a guitarist, but a bass guitarist in that I've played 32" or 34" etc. scales for decades.also I have always tuned in 4ths.

 

So in the process of developing a g4/ab4 string for 30"-34" scale,which is still ongoing,I've tried some of the wire on guitar.

 

My .003 is on there now,and I can bend it past the G string but the pitch never changes past a 1/2 step because it is so thin.Same with the .004 and .005. I have a custom .006 I will try next and hopefully it will do more than a 1/2 step and be painless.

Right now,the .003 is tuned to an open Bb4(466.16hz) on the Kramer "Strat".Make that B4 (499.88Hz). So if it hasn't been an option before,now it is one to be able to have octaves on the normally doubled pitched B strings on a 12-string (2x6) guitar.