JDBlackhawk

Zombie post but anyway. After getting a little tangled up in the virtual analog world recently (Alesis Micron, Akai Miniak and now a Poly D) I decided to do more programming with my PX560 again. Design scheme-since there is a good array of PCM samples in the 560-but can only be accessed in hex layer mode for programming-I decided to focus on the basic waveforms used for many analog recreations floating around lately. Sine, square, sawtooth, triangle and pulse are all in the 560. Trying to keep edits clean-only using filter and amp envelopes plus LFO's, no other effects. The main limitation I am finding-modulation routings, but still experimenting and open to suggestions, I still might not know enough about the possibilities there. Wheels and 3 control knobs are useful-but those settings must be saved as part of a registration, not with the Casio "tone" or program. Envelopes are very easy to work with-I wish this had the 8-step envelopes of the old CZ's-which enabled some really interesting time-evolved programming I still can't quite get with the 560, but its early on. I have been able to get a slight "morphing" effect bringing in various waveshapes using filter and amp envelopes, but still need more practice in getting the delay settings right for attacks and release envelopes. many hex layers already achieved this but are not limited to the basic waveshapes I am using. There is some power here. The other hitch-when changing programmable settings within a hex layer-stepping through screens to get where i want-not a major problem, the workflow is a little challenging since only one screen is visible at a time-have to do a bit of screen jumping as some programmable settings are available "globally" for the hex layer, and other settings can only be reached in the "layers" menu setting, takes some getting used to. Casio's way of doing these things is a little different-like the difference between Yamaha algorithms for programming FM and almost everything else....And yes, it would have been nice to be able to name the registrations, or at least have software that can be set up to save all the registrations at once with names. Which brings me to another topic-sysex availability within the 560-for possibly developing a software front-end for creating a way to name and save the registrations-there are a few clever programmers that have done similar things for other Casios, based at the Casio Music Forum user group-have managed to open up and create features for some of the CTX series, that were not accessible otherwise. Guess I have another post to bug people with, over there. I'll leave this alone for awhile anyway.

Anyone interested-finally solved the black/white key discrepancy, it was not easy-I know of the software solution using a midi loop and computer to change velocities but I solved this on the hardware level so I would not need to be permanently tethered to a computer just to balance a physical defect. I've detailed this mod at www.alesismusic.com-it involved discovering sets of fatar springs originally used in the TP-20 key assembly which I ordered and installed under every single black key only, from Syntaur who had these springs, which are a shorter length, stiffer than my old kludged springs. The reverse-engineering part of this-after sussing out geometrically why this defect existed-studying the physical profile of a Fatar TP-40 that had 2 different hammers for a balanced Fatar-I had to alter the "apparent" throw length of the black key by adding tiny shims under the 2 prongs that hit the rubber contacts underneath. I have pictures at the Alesis group showing this-the shim is less than 1mm thick-I had to experiment to get this just right and finally a balanced defective Fatar TP-40 from 2005. Only drawback-the black keys are a little stiffer to play than before but playing the keys before and after I did the mod-I discovered I leaned harder into the black keys anyway with all my weighted keyboards-I'm thinking it might be a natural compensation in my technique for reasons i still don't quite understand-the added stiffness in the black keys doesn't seem to alter my playing technique at all on this. I'll leave that open for discussion-I am classically trained, balance is everything for proper execution-am playing the same pieces on the old balanced RH-2 as on this one now-i don't seem to have to alter my technique, very odd and not what I expected. I had to do both mods-the springs or shims alone did not work. Only doing both-the shims effectively reduced the key's "momentum" since it had a shorter distance to travel. I thought this would make it worse-increase the apparent audible velocity but it did the opposite, was the real "aha" moment-I had also tried reducing the length of the 2 prongs underneath the key-this increased the velocity and how i realized what would finally work. A thicker or thinner shim-has to be just this size to work. It was a bear gluing tiny shims under each black key, I used pro grade cyanoacrylate not the cheaper dollar store type brands. it was a nightmare-do not attempt this unless you have an extremely steady hand and really good eyeballs-and be very careful with the cyano-the pro grade stuff is vicious and will stick to a billiard ball-I glued my fingers together by mistake more than once and i was careful as even i tiny drop of this is enough. I used the shaved end of a wooden matchstick to apply it just right, and tweezers. And fingers, but not intentionally.....whew. I keep some nail polish remover around as cleaner and to unglue my fingers just in case, but don't get that on any plastic, you will be sorry. The payoff was worth it-going from a keyboard that was unplayable, to one that I now can execute whatever piano work I am capable of. But now I have an extra intact TP-20 key assembly (was going to swap it in) from an old QS8 with a dead mainboard. Thinking of installing this in some other possibly custom-built controller-looked at the options available but will involve extensive arduino development, a possibly equally costly and involved Doepfer solution for parts that "might" work-or finding some other cheap keyboard that uses the same connectors as the Fatar TP-20-surprising how difficult it is to find disassembled keyboards that show internal connections that might be compatible, and i have looked. I am open to any suggestions, as i hate to leave this QS-8 completely useless or caanabalize it for parts. T, I've checked all the usual parts suppliers, alesis gave up on these a long time ago and others such as Syntaur, -Pac-Parts, Keyboard Kountry etc.-there are no mainboard replacements or repairs for the QS8's, at least so far in 2023. I will post pics of the cable connectors if anyone is interested.

Trying hard to decide if i should spend the extra thousands for the latest new digital stage piano-outside of the digital consoles with the grand hammer actions-such as the Kawai MP11SE or the Casio GP series-I have no room and no need to spend 4-5000 or more for an additional hammer-weighted digital console. So have been studying incessantly the last month or so trying to talk myself into it-but the more I study and listen-the more I'm convinced I will not get an appreciable better sounding or playing digital without going to a console, or a real grand! For example-I recently picked up an old Korg SP-500-with the "RH-II" Korg action. Wrong, it's a Fatar-i opened it to do some cleaning and restoring and there it was-specifically a TP40, and it's graded. i know this because i have the identical (almost) TP40 in my old Alesis Fusions-not graded!! And the big surprise-this action is overall heavier than the Fusion TP40 across all octaves (yep!) and plays remarkably well with a lowly P50m Yamahas-outdated-piano module. So.....the conflict is-for a real digital escapement action-except for the Kawai MP11Se which weighs 74 pounds-only the consoles will do. the rest-are all so close in design to what I already have, looks like I have to stand pat. I see nothing but compromises lately-rehashed Fatars, plasticky complex actions, and basically the same Fatar design I already play in instruments most of you would describe as ancient. If I could buy my own key assemblies, I'd build my own digitals from scratch-don't laugh some are doing this already, I've seen a few custom designs on the web. I am in process of taking an old alesis QS-8 with a dead mainboard, and maybe sussing out how to redesign with my own mainboard in there-or a computer tablet with virtual instruments-built into the case-basically using just the case, the keys and the power supply! This too, is a very playable Fatar, the older TP-20 with aftertouch. Why not.

At this point-after...very carefully listening to so many acoustic piano simulations, demos, pianoteq, other large virtual piano libraries plus all the major workstation type stage pianos etc. I don't hear such a remarkable difference in the quality of the acoustic piano samples at the level of these workstations. Many are excellent and there are subtle improvements (but Gem had these piano models in their DRAKE designs years ago, harmonic resonance, half-pedaling features are not totally new. I seem to favor the Nord piano and the newest Kawai MP7SE because the attacks seem less "brittle". The Kawai seems to have a slightly different action than many of the other weighted designs-with a so-called semi "escapement" action that is supposed to improve the real feel of the key rebound, and can still be carted around-not too easily it is around 50 pounds. i haven't found a big improvement with the "triple-strike" keyboard designs for playability. I have less trouble executing Chopin turns and trills with the older RH-II than the TP-40 in the Fusions or the Casio PX-560 but so much of these preferences are dependent upon each player's individual technique. Stevie Ray Vaughan loved heavy-gauge strings and a high action on his guitars-and he managed somehow😀 If i got a good Fatar without defects-I still favor a metal structure in a gigging board and so many of the newest workstations are now going over to plastic, for the bodies and keyframes too. Why the Kurzweil K2700 is more expensive than the PC4-suspiciously i till can't find a picture of the inside mechanism of the PC-4. I am thinking from reading other posts-the key action on the PC4 is definitely not as responsive as the K2700, and i believe it is a basically plastic-construction key assembly. I'd just gotten info from a source I will not share but whose opinion I trust and who has demoed many of the keys I'm looking at (listening too more accurately) since i haven't had a chance to get to a live music retailer in years. The newest S-7000/6000 Casios are using the same compacted/shortened keythrow as the other slim-line Casios. Might not matter to some. With my carpal problems, I am staying away from that design.

Still following these posts-referring to buying a replacement keybed assembly? I have read on other user groups-this is pretty much impossible-that Fatar or any other music distributors are not selling the key assemblies to us as "end users"? Here's another surprise-I recently purchased an excellent condition Korg SP-500 digital piano with some surprisingly nice features and a handful of usable sounds-here's the trick. This piano is identified as having the Korg "RH-2" keyboard assembly/action, and it is fairly firm, but very playable for classic and jazz. It has a noticeably heavier key action than my weighted Fusions but definitely playable-I can do 2 finger fast repeated notes on one key pretty comfortably, has a good shallow or deep response and quick return, also being mindful of my carpal tunnel-I have to be careful with these digitals. Guess what it really is-a Fatar TP40-I know as I've disassembled all of these 88 key monsters. And...this one is graded, the Fusions are not. The Fusion TP-40-I've taken one apart again after my first post-definitely an Italian label in there on the metal frame-but then this was from 2005. What a mess, but if anyone can direct me to a source for these TP Fatars-I have done everything possible to compensate for the the velocity discrepancy in the one and have only gotten it so far as to have a roughly 5-10 step difference in velocity response between the black and white keys, a slight improvement over the original 20-25 step difference which is still maddening. I have hesitated to buy any others due to this seeming lack of consistency with Fatar-and that these same keybed assemblies in some variation are in Nords, Kurzweils, Dexibells and who knows who else.

I own and play three very different hammer action boards, and have played quite a few others over the years. an RH-2 Korg (which is really a modified graded TP-40 Fatar) A Casio PX560 and 575, and 2 TP-40 Fusions. I trained on Steinways, and have played many gigs-organ and piano parts (always 2 keys for this-hammer and spring-action otherwise I'd have been totally drippled by now) and have recently started rekindling my classical chops as I don't anticipate doing much gigging real soon, but maybe if this pandemic ever really goes away-I just had Covid when i least expected it would happen this past December crap! One thing that concerns me, the reason I've stayed with the older boards-is durability-and for me keythrow is critical. I like to feel "depth" in a key like a real grand, and a long-throw for classical-although yes it requires alot more attention to using your arms, hands wrists and fingers more carefully with any digital than even with the best grands IMO if I don't want to cripple my chops. If i had to play 3-4 sets a night 70-80 songs or more in a gig-no question I would prefer more key "depth' for hard repetitive playing, and i have carpal tunnel from digitals-all of them. The durability issue-these TP40s are over 15 years old, and the action on these has never deteriorated, never changed. Not a grand piano sensation completely, but I can sink my fingers into these better than others. Nothing worse than slamming my fingers and hands into a rock-solid keybed bottom. That's what i miss most transitioning from a true acoustic grand to any digital. I will wait to see if these newest Casios hold up-I still don't trust the engineering plastic alot of the manufacturers seem to favor in designing lightweight boards-including the newest Kurzweil 88s if I'm not mistaken. I like the concept of wooden keys, but unless the action is rock-solid and drop-dead quiet and has an escapement like the Casio GPs or a few others which I have yet to try, ansd will hold up over at least a year or two, I'm not too excited about these Casios yet. I like yellow mustard on my German frankfurters, not on my German piano.

Changed my mind a bit after playing the SP-500 for a few days-mostly re the operating system, which although a completely closed system-which I expected in a consumer digital piano from 2001-surprisingly easy to work with. I can throw together a decent set of 4-5 track arrangements in minutes since there are no endless menus to wade through-the touchscreen was a very handy idea, and still is. The limitations-forcing me to work with what is there-the drumkits although not editable at all-are surprisingly clean and very usable after all.the fact that there are only a few electronic pianos-not terrible. and a few organs are at least usable. definitely not a replacement for an organ clone or my other workstations. The frustrating part-there are only 2 acoustic pianos that are usable-the others are pretty horrible-Korg did not make these stereo-sounds like they crushed the stereo samples to mono and the results are pretty nasty to my ears. I'm working with the sysex midi implementation to see if i can"fool" this closed operating system to giving up some of its information-there is no bulk dump command from the keyboard, but there is one in the sysex implementation for example. Another huge plus-for an 88-key weighted instrument-to come in at 42 pounds. Back then-I'm pretty sure this was fairly unique for a consumer or stage piano with the TP-40 key assembly. My 8HD's are 58 pounds, and they feel like it! If anyone here is interested-if you have a Korg or other 88-key with a velocity mismatch between the black and white keys-apparently some Fatars had/have this problem and I've run across other workstations that have this discrepancy, even newest....not the SP-500 which is very well regulated/balanced for velocity response-I've not run across any of the older or newer Korgs with this problem, I guess it's possible. I did an extensive mod which-finally after much study/experimentation-I managed to fix. Involved installing small springs under the keys-some Fatars have these installed already, mine did not for whatever reason. Was a very difficult mod but made an unplayable fusion 8HD playable for classic and jazz repertoire. If interested, PM me (can we do that here administrator?) I will direct you to those posts, not on this user group as it involves another brand's user group. And to Miden-how's this-I used the advanced editor to up the font size too. After eye operations many years of studying scores, and years proof-reading and printing copy as an apprentice for a job with a newspaper-with 8-point fonts, this size just doesn't work for me anymore!!!

How to edit an existing post? I don't see an option here. Also looks like posts default to a very small font without using the advanced features?

Like to revive these zombie posts. The aforementioned Fusion 8HD is in fact a Fatar TP40-unfortunately I found 3 different versions-2 of which I own, and others owned at the Fusion group, If you go to the alesismusic user group you will find I did a ton of restoration on these older fusions, and posted all the info I found about these. One version has green pivots-and i think it is actually called a TP-30, and was used on the QS8 Alesis series first, then installed apparently on some of the 8HDs. There are no differences in velocity response between black vs. white keys from what I am told. Mine have the pink style pivots-and the bizarre part is that one has 2 different counterweight/fulcrum arms-to compensate the key throws among the black and white keys, and it works well. My other does not-all the counterweights are the same color-and this has a 20-step discrepancy in velocity comparing the black and white keys-a pretty nasty defect. and both were installed in my fusions that were manufactured only a few months apart-I checked factory stamps inside the key assemblies. d** aggravating problem. and for sh** and giggles (I was sold on it appearance honestly-never judge a book by its cover!) I purchased a Korg SP-500 from japan-probably overpaid fo it but then, being an equipment whore runs into money doesn't it? The pleasant surprise (I had to take this one apart too-a bad habit of mine) and discovered-the same Fatar TP40-with the 2 dirfferent counterweights-but this one has no aftertouch like the Fusion does and it is a graded hammer version-this is an old digital-I didn't think there were graded actions back then, but this one is. And it is labelled by Korg as "RH-2" so now you know-this is a Fatar key assembly, not a Korg. so I'm torn-these are very comfortable to play-I agree many weighted controllers are actually heavier than a grand or upright, and since a grand generally has a longer pivot-I do not get that nice balanced momentum you can get on a grand for fortissimo-and have always found that less punishing on my chops too. So for now I'm keeping the SP-500, but the sound ROM is not very good. the acoustic and electric pianos are pretty dead sounding, with no internal eq or editing, but the TP40 key action works for me-a bit lighter than some-I can execute fast organ runs and yet play weightier piano parts equally well. A shame, very handy OS for a digital-with multitrack recording and editing possible.

Add to this-the Korg SP-500 is the Fatar TP40 graded hammer action. So the so-called Korg "RH-2" action is...a Fatar TP40 graded action. Guess I'll have to get some weights and start measuring. This key assembly is identical to one of my Fusion 8HD's-in that it has the pink colored pivot points, and 2 different colored fulcrum arms-to account for the 2 different throwweights from black to white keys-and it works well, no discrepancy between black and white keys. The only problem-not aftertouch equipped on the Korg-the Fusion is, and this old Korg sampled piano is pretty nasty-close but no cigar-what a shame I really wanted to add this to my collection-such a beautiful design, good simple operating system but except for the drumkits, many of the other sounds are either just passable or really crappy. And its a "closed" board-no editing at all, not even an EQ setting, pretty dumb but I wasn't expecting much. I think this was the "prosumer" model Triton back when, meant for mostly auto-arranging and playing piano. The auto-arrangements although I don't use these for what I do are actually pretty realistic given the crappy soundbanks, some good hooks, some very foul cheese on others. This is the first time in auditioning thousands of sounds over the years-I found a sound, and I have no idea what it's supposed to be (!) on this. Some sort of Indian instrument-but it doesn't sound remotely like anything Indian or otherwise. A shame. But that TP40 action is definitely nice to play. Oh well.

A few other observations-I am not too interested in detailed weighing and measuring-technique to me is partially learning to overcome variations or limitations in an instrument-although the more I have had to play, the less tolerant I am of an instrument tryingen trying to accomplish to cripple me. Most digitals-as many of you have described do not have the escapement mechanism which I find very difficult to deal with when trying to execute difficult expressive passages-and the other surprise-getting my hands back on a few acoustics lately-how much easier it is to play these-the uprights are so forgiving, I almost couldn't play at first, the adjustment was that great. I think the most noticeable difference for me at least-when comparing to a good grand-is the key throw-and the escapement-like playing into a pillow compared to any digital I've played for forte, fortissimo work. So the newest heavier digitals that are now including an escapement mechanism-but not for gigging work! There's the compromise, moving back to any digital. The keys bottoming out on all these-like hitting my fingers on a wooden plank and my wrists if I'm not careful with technique-will be ruined. I could play for hours on a Steinway-but even my newer digitals-can only take so much before I begin to hurt. Boogie, stride, full fisted jazz Errol Garner, McCoy Tyner style-can't do for much more than 1/2 hour or so at a time on any digital. and the reason the Casios (I guess others lightweight) are this way-are using "engineering plastic" in the keyframes holding the keys. I've removed the key assemblies (notice I carefully avoided use of "keybed") on the TP40 Fusions and the Casio 560.350/575's. the difference in weight is the keyframe. Steel in the TP40, plastic in the Casios. which is better? I feel more comfortable wacking on the TP40 rather than the Casios, and my old Ensoniqs/Kurzweils, but it might be more in my head than hands, only time and wear will tell.

Look up my posts at the Alesis music group about these bizarre anomalies in my 2 Fatar TP40 keybeds in my 2 Fusions-from 2005, which I completely dissected to determine what the hell was wrong with both of them! To summarize my findings-which took agonizing weeks to investigate and decipher-and partially correct at least the one. 1) 2 different 8HDs had 2 different TP40 keybeds-and serial numbers and dates on the stamps indicated these were released within 3 months of each other-in 2005. 2) Both my 8HDs had the distinct pink pivots-although I discovered from another Fusion 8HD owner theirs had green pivots-and was also 2005 manufacture date-the same as the earlier QS8's! (a TP20) 3) Now we come to the mystery-one 8HD had the same color hammer weights throughout the range of all octaves-and this one had the horrible 20-step difference in velocity response between black and white keys, which I still can't modify or resolve-I describe why in a minute...and the other had 2 different color hammer weights and there is no velocity discrepancy in this one-I think I see this in the posted picture above. 4) Now here is the next puzzle-the unbalanced keybed has no springs under the keys-and the good one does!....SO 5) I purchased tiny springs that are the same size as the ones in my "sprung" TP40-placed a few under just the black keys to see if it would solve the problem of unbalanced velocity between black and white keys-thinking this increased pressure would solve the problemAND IT DIDN'T! The black keys felt a little stiffer but the velocity response was the same!! AAARRRGGGHHH!!! My conclusion-the guys or girls at the Fatar factory are spending a little too much time at the vino between (or before-or during) shifts-I can't think of anything else that makes sense as to how there could be such an unbelievable failure of quality control-and the even sadder surprise-now that I've read these new 2020/2021 posts-apparently some of these same people are still working there!!!! OR-they've decided that part of the newbie training program consists of wine-testing before or during assembling these keybeds!!!!! And why aren't the keyboard companies holding Fatar accountable for these really strange defects, screening these before these come to market??? A question for which I have no answer.

sorry, replied to an earlier post. Deleted. One concern with the PC4-i have 2 TP40 Fusions i resurrected and had to do extensive mods to get the keybeds to work properly no wonder these didn't sell so well although I've solved the inherent defects with extensive re-engineering involving even drillbits and screwguns-leave it at that, 2 Casio PX's 560 and 350-definitely a different feel between the TP40 keys and the PX lightweights which I'm guessing the PC4 might be closer to the PX's than the TP40. Tough call, I can see a need for both styles of keybeds. My concern though-the internal construction of the new breed of lightweight hammer-action keys. I have seen only one picture of the internal mechanism of the Medeli--not the PC4 so can't be sure if its mechanically the same. If it is, the Medeli seems to have a very thin piece of plastic at the fulcrum point-rather than a true mechanical pivot as typical hammer-actions do. if anyone here can post a pic of the PC4 internal key mechanism-I play every day-have had to major mod these lighter-weight keys as the amount of wear and tear I create seriously deteriorates the actions on these lightweights over time-but the TP40 mechanically-as heavy as it is-and I have a bad back from years of lugging equipment-before I pull the trigger on a PC4-i'd really like to see the keybed internals. Also need to save my carpals, so far so good but I've had some trouble since i started playing mainly digital hammer-actions, a shallow action is not good for my style of playing. if I want a Hammond keybed, I'll play one. Like someone posted here already, I don't particularly care for a hybrid trying to do both-and i wasn't aware that this was the design behind the PC4, but if it works-he** I play organ riffs and leads on the TP40s-no wonder I'm having trouble with my carpals. But I hate playing piano parts on a spring-action key. Like eating a picture of a hamburger instead of a real one.....

Worst thing in life, after seeming to survive catching covid which she got during Christmas-my siblings somehow exposed her to it stupidly, mom passed away March 23rd rather suddenly. she was 92, but was doing fine up until then, and seemed to be recovering-but it attacked her lungs and heart and couldn't fight back. and left us with nothing but debt which I am in the middle of right now, for reasons not so important anymore. The best-mom had an operatic voice (naturally without lessons) and was an artist- she studied both singing locally and art with a famous artist now gone and in his studio named Paul Ortlip-who before a huge condo corporation bought out his property on the cliffs of Fort Lee we would play as kids with beautiful scenery of NY across the river, and gardens and woods all over his property. Now its a high-rise development, why I hate developers but that's another story. I'd hear her singing when I was a little kid although she sacrificed a shot at the Met to bring my brother and me up-would pretty much have had to be in residence there in NY and we lived across the river in NJ. This is why my brother and me both made, and are making successful careers in our respective musical lives -no big fame but making a living. I was a music director for 30 years in a little town behind the Meadowlands called Moonachie-I loved it, wonderful people and town, while perfoming locally as a drummer and keyboard player and I joke while springsteen was down the street making do in the meadowlands, which I never got to see as I was working too, just not quite the same venues.....! Also very positive-my brother is performing regularly at the NJ shore, work is picking up again and he has a very interesting resume-and connected with Vinnie Lopez, works with him every chance he can. also Paul Whistler a great bluesman also old buddy of Springsteen, recorded with them and Jason Federici among others in that area very proud of him-was at the E-Street band's induction into the R and Roll Hall of Fame and has performed there and will be again in August. I am trying to get some things started here at the "tail-end" I hope of this pandemic-have a few musical friends out here in the Pocono woodlands where I retired, did a long-standing virtual music lesson with a friend out in Arizona, learned plenty about video, lighting etc from that. And Craig Anderton, I've been following your publications and Electronic Musican articles for many years, gave me alot of valuable insight over the years, and quite a few electronics projects-without electrocuting myself! hang in there-always darkest before dawn..

Does anybody have pics of this internal keyboard mechanism? The picture of the Medeli version-the only one I've found so far-looks a little strange-as if they attached weights at the end of a normal spring-action keyboard-beyond the fulcrum end of the key. And how are your PC4 keys holding up-any mechanical problems after playing for a few months or more?