Songwriting: "Discipline" or "Inspiration"?

[Lee Flier]

I think I've asked a similar question here before, but considering that I'm going into mega-writing mode right now, and a lot of people probably missed it the first time around, I think it's worth discussing again.

 

For those of you that write songs, what is your preferred method of working? Do you just wait for inspiration to "hit you" or do you spend a preset amount of time every day working on songs? What do you do if your usual method of working isn't happening for you?

 

Do you set deadlines on finishing songs or do you just work on them "till they're done?

 

Do you write by just singing, or with a preferred instrument, or with a computer/sampler/sequencer, or do you like to play an instrument other than the one you normally play, just to get the juices flowing?

 

Just trolling for ideas on how everybody likes to work and also ways to vary your normal working method.

 

--Lee

[Laurie Z.]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

I think I've asked a similar question here before, but considering that I'm going into mega-writing mode right now, and a lot of people probably missed it the first time around, I think it's worth discussing again.

 

For those of you that write songs, what is your preferred method of working? Do you just wait for inspiration to "hit you" or do you spend a preset amount of time every day working on songs? What do you do if your usual method of working isn't happening for you?

 

Do you set deadlines on finishing songs or do you just work on them "till they're done?

 

Do you write by just singing, or with a preferred instrument, or with a computer/sampler/sequencer, or do you like to play an instrument other than the one you normally play, just to get the juices flowing?

 

Just trolling for ideas on how everybody likes to work and also ways to vary your normal working method.

 

--Lee

 

Good question, Lee...and even if questions like this have been posed before, I'm sure there's always new people and new takes on this subject.

 

For me, it's every which way. It just depends on what I'm trying to accomplish. Depending on how much "junk" is in my brain, sleep can bring on a great idea, retreating from normal business during the day can inspire creativity, and a new way I'm finding musical inspiration is as a passenger on the back of our motorcycle - with a full face helmet on, blocked off from everybody else's chatter and music, I find a source.

 

Right now, I don't have the luxury of "waiting for the muse to hit" - I've got 2 albums due this year (and a hard deadline that they have to be completed), so time is of the essence.

 

When necessary, I try to clear a week, a day, or even a few hours, and I try to put my hands in a new place on the piano, try a different key than my last song, or just sit and go through sounds in one of my synths to see what inspirations happen. When I do in-concert improvisation, I ask the audience to provide a subject to write about, and sometimes I'll do that in my studio by coming up with a phrase or a song title that's interesting. Anything that provides an image can bring a spark, which can include a book, taking a walk on the beach, or talking with a friend about things that are important to them. The hardest part is always getting started for me, so once I get started, the song pretty much writes itself.

 

And when the song is for an album release, there's always a deadline (either self-imposed or imposed by an upcoming event), which seems to also push along the muse.

 

On a related topic, many of my friends seem to write and write (and record and record), but with no product goal or completion. To me, it's not just about writing. I think that if you know that you're creating an actual CD project for public release, you can be more focused and can actually finish the project. Flame me if you want, but I don't think it's a bad thing to think of a cohesive project that your listeners will like, and to project your creativity in that direction. By that I mean, if you know how to write, you can direct your energies in many directions, so why not think of a project as a whole and imagine the listener as you're creating? I feel that I've been able to be extremely creative in my releases, but I always try to put myself in the place of the listener and ask, "Is this something I would put in, sit down, and listen to as a whole?" That's one of the reasons I like to title the project first, too - so that it's all coming from the same place. I might have other songs I'd like to release, but if they don't fit with the mood of the CD and add something to it, they don't go on.

 

Done blathering for the moment....

lz

[miroslav]

I often get inspired, but it's the discipline that finishes the damn song!

 

inspiration = foreplay

discipline = great sex

[Calfee Jones]

It seems like different people do it different ways, and often times both ways.

 

I'll always be writing down ideas and trying to remember good licks that come to me, but I tend to wait for a song to complete itself. For me, a song has to say something, so it is difficult for me to force one out.

 

But I have read that some very successful writers apparently write several songs a day, keeping to a schedule, etc. I have tried doing that, but it just doesn't work for me.

 

There have been times that I have taken another song, created my own arrangement, and found the new arrangement significantly different enough to transform it into a new song (different melody line, different lyrics).

 

And sometimes a song comes out so fully formed you have to check with everyone you know to make sure you aren't ripping somebody off... ('...My Sweet Lord...')

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by miroslav:

inspiration = foreplay

discipline = great sex

 

DAMN!!

 

How's anybody going to top THAT? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

A truly inspired summation! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

--Lee

[miroslav]

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif OOOXXX http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/redface.gif

[alphajerk]

Discipline is for the military. inspiration is for the creation. military only destroys, it doesnt create.

[Tedster]

>>>I often get inspired, but it's the discipline that finishes the damn song!

inspiration = foreplay

discipline = great sex

 

Alpha...obviously you don't know Dominatrix Darlene...oouch...'scuse me, I'm still in a little pain... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Miroslav...all kidding aside...your first sentence sums it all up as far as I'm concerned...

 

What? Darlene! I'm being a naughty boy being on these forums? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Eric Worthington]

Songwriting is two phases: the inspirational (or, the initial idea, whether a melody, a chord progression, a groove, a lyric, etc.) and then the craftsmanship.

 

McCartney and Lennon had them both bigtime. They came up with a good idea, and THEN were able to craft it into a finished song that would hold up to repeated listenings. Same with Becker/Fagan, Paul Simon, etc.

 

Billy Joel is an example of a great craftsman, but not the most inspired, for many ears. So he had a lot of hits, even if they weren't universally loved, because he at least knew how to wark hard to FINISH a song.

 

I think one of the reasons so many people feel that songwriting today is so exceedingly mediocre, is that many of today's songwriters, especially those who are members of bands, have lots of inspiration, but not much craftsmanship. So you get a lot of those, "Oh, yeah, I wrote the whole thing in twenty minutes." (Well, it shows....)

 

I don't care how a great a writer one is (whether prose, poetry, or songs), there's always an opportunity for some editing. Give it a rest, come back to it (hours, days or weeks) later and see if maybe you can't strengthen an adjective, remove a cliche, change (or enhance) a chord, add a bridge, re-arrange a verse, etc.

 

It wouldn't hurt to learn a new chord once in a while, too. The Beatles, when learning a new chord, would figure out a way to use it in a new song. Which resulted in new harmonic directions, melodies, styles, etc.

 

Peruse the early Beatles catalog and, though the songs may SEEM simple and straightforward, you'll find a 6th chord here, a diminished there, an augmented, a 9th, a major 7th. If these chords are not in your palette, you are severly limiting yourself. It would be like only painting with primary colors. Same thing if you only work in 4/4. There are a lot of great songs in 3/4 and 6/8.

 

 

p.s. I think the word "discipline" scares some people http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

"Discipline is not an end in itself, merely a means to an end."

Robert Fripp

[Hayman]

Definitely discipline for me. I've been working hard the last few days to write some good stuff. I start right after breakfast. Totally focused. Writing, singing, playing and recording. Taking breaks every hour.

I agree that it's a good thing having a project to write for. I try to picture in my head how it would feel and sound like up on stage. Right now the goal is to get some new songs ready before June 10th (we're opening for Little Feat and Sting in Oslo, and yes I'm scared).

 

Richard http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[jraffertyuswest.net]

No question about it. Inspiration. I dont want to hear any thing that is not inspired. That is the reason why bands like aerosmoth and metellica end up sucking. Because they start putting out their music for the WRONG reasons and the second you do that it sucks.

 

If you aren't inspired than the music needs to go into the trash can. What is the point of making and listening to uninspired music?? With the exception of jingles or ad work of course, but that I assume we aren't talking about that.

 

It doesn't matter if it is thought provoking music, headbanging music, or party music. What ever music you make, make sure it is sincere and truly inspired. Only then do you have a shot at achieving musical greatness.

 

-Josh.

[Lee Flier]

Eric,

 

All good points, although I kinda disagree on the current mediocre songwriting. At least in top 40, it all sounds like "I'm gonna write a hit" - pure craftsmanship, no inspiration. Not that I don't respect craftsmanship - I really do, actually. I would just hate to be a songwriter with strict deadlines where you HAVE to turn something in even if it's uninspired. Sometimes it's hard to know where to draw the line.

 

And yes, I've got my trusty "Complete Beatles Scores" book handy and always am on the lookout for new chords. Of course, I sometimes make up chords, too. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Well, I'm sure I didn't make them up, but I make an effort to experiment on the guitar in the hopes that I stumble on stuff that sounds good to me. Usually works. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

And I love 6/8 time, especially finding a drummer that can really nail it. I hope I come up with a good 6/8 song for this record.

 

--Lee

[Lee Flier]

LZ,

 

Nice post, thanks! I agree about picking a direction. I have a lot of song ideas and sonic ideas, but they won't necessarily all work on the same CD. I'm trying to come up with stuff that will fit a particular picture I'm trying to paint. Not that I reject any idea that comes along that doesn't fit, but if I can't finish it pretty quickly I just try to get the idea down very roughly on the recorder so I can come back to it later.

 

--Lee

[dansouth]

Well, Lee, I can't believe that you really want tips from a guy who uses computers and synthesizers to make music. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif But just in case you do, here are a couple of thoughts.

 

I don't often compose on an instrument. If I do, it almost always turns out to be some kind of ambient mood music. It's pleasant, but I don't think it's my best stuff. I usually start with some idea of what I'm going for, at least a vocal hook, a groove, or a general "mood" or tempo. Then I put together an arrangement to support it, trying different sounds and combinations of instruments until I find something that works. If I can't get it to groove, I'll shelve the project until a later date, because the feel has to be there from the start.

 

I make a MIDI arrangement of the complete song before I start tracking. This allows me to nail down the key, the tempo, the verse-chorus-bridge patterns, etc. It also saves me a bunch of editing. I have the song structure already worked out then I begin tracking, so I don't have to struggle to come up with an intro or an ending to finish the project. I'll sync the recorder to the sequencer and track the MIDI parts I want to keep in the final arrangement and then overdub vocals and other instruments.

 

I usually delay working on the lyrics until I have the rhythm tracks recorded (or sequenced), because I want the music to inspire me when I'm writing the words. Occasionally, I start with lyrics, but it usually works better the other way around. There's nothing like dancing around the control room with the playback pumping to unleash those lyric ideas. I've scrapped written lyrics for improvised ones on several occasions.

 

I write songs over a period of several weeks, sometimes several months. I keep multiple projects going at once. Usually, I can work on the one that appeals to me the most that day, but sometimes I have to focus all of my energies on a single project to get it finished. My approach is not the fastest way to work, but I find that over time I get ideas about how to make the arrangement better. If I tried to rush it, I'd never be able to take advantage of these insights.

 

One final technique is experimentation. Sometimes it's good to get out of your comfort zone and try something new. Try recording a vocal in a different room of the house. Try playing the guitar in the bathroom. Try coming up with a groove in a completely different style. Skip the fancy new gear and pull out something piece that you used years ago. This can keep help keep your ideas fresh and your writing experiences from becoming tiresome.

 

Good luck! Let me know then the album comes out. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Hippie]

I don't know about ya'alls, but when I disipline myself to write a song, it's never very good. Music is like sex, if you can't get it up http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif , your performance will fall flat, literally.

 

inspired,

-Hippie http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[GY]

I know for me, it's discipline, inspiration. My most creative moments also seem to be in times of irresponsibility.

[ricknbokker]

Thanks for bringing up the subject, Lee. The idea of a songwriter's forum came up on one of these boards recently, and I'm hoping the idea eventually bears fruit.

 

In my own experience, I don't think that I'm much different than most songwriters as far as how I get it done. Inspiration, craft, and experience all have a lot to do with it, but not in any set percentage of each.

I don't know how much writing you've done in the past, but I can throw a few things I've learned along the way, with the hope that you can use them.

 

I can say for a fact that in my case, it was all inspiration in the beginning. The songs that worked out best were always the ones that came out fast and furious, regardless of style. Granted, they were by no means finished, but they only needed a little tweaking to get them the way I heard it in my head and heart.

 

Craft came to me through study, and exposure to working with experienced songwriters. For me however, craft is a double edged sword. For a long time I associated the 'craft' as the 'rules'. I had a real hard time early on with the idea that it has to be done a certain way in order to be , shall we say, correct. Things like this exercise I call 4-4-8-7...

 

I lost my job

I lost my girl

I don't know what it is I've done

I think I'm losing my world

 

I always try to think of lyrics as a rhythmic device. In most cases, in syllables. In this case, the first line has four syllables, the second has four, the third has eight, and the last has seven. In this song the pattern is the same for all verses.

The other thing you may have noticed is how lines two and four ALMOST rhyme. This goes to another 'rule' I use a lot, that is, use the Shape of words to help in what words you choose to use. A good way to do this is to take note of how your mouth is shaped as you say each word. Very handy.

 

The reason I had so much trouble accepting this sort of thinking was because I didn't want the song to come out sounding 'processed', or too structured. Hey, I was out to break boundaries!!!

What I found out was that things like this make the song easier to listen to. Your a writer of some note yourself, so I imagine you know what I mean.

 

And so, we come to experience. Experience for me means using Craft to facilitate Inspiration. Sound formulaic? Perhaps, but that's what I came up with after writing for twenty-five years.

 

Sorry about the length of this post, but I appreciate what you're undertaking (congrats again!), so if you can use it, great. If not, no sweat. More fodder for the forum!

 

Just one more thing. Whenever I felt I HAD to write a song, for a particular purpose or reason, it just never seems to work. Not that it's bad, but it's just never as good as when it just...comes...you know?

Don't let that scare you though. Go baby go!!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gif

 

Steve

[Philip OKeefe]

Originally posted by alphajerk:

Discipline is for the military. inspiration is for the creation. military only destroys, it doesnt create.

 

Disipline is also what keeps power in check and under control lest it run rampant. The military isn't just about destruction, but preservation and protection of what has been created. (At least that's the ideal in my country, not that we've always lived up to it). And if something threatens, THEN it's about destruction! (Oooh RAH! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif ) I think a certain amount of disipline IS what gets the job accomplished when the glow of inspiration has faded.

 

Edison said that invention is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration, or words to that effect.

 

I don't know. It's very difficult to control the left brain / right brain struggle without a certain amount of disipline. You need to let your "creative half" be free and allow it to be inspired and creative without letting the "analytical half" get in there too early with the critical thoughts - otherwise it can kill the creativity before it even gets a chance. OTOH, without the analysis, there's no editing going on, and you'll likely fall into the trap of putting out everything that comes to mind and thinking it's ALL good.

 

I try to take notes on paper of ideas, or record them into a digital "memo" recorder when an inspirational idea strikes me. And if I'm really excited about it, I try to get to work on it ASAP before I lose some of the enthusiasm. I try not to "judge" my ideas while I'm in "creating mode" and save that until later. Disipline comes in when something inspired you and you've got a catchy hook for the chorus but now you have to finish doing the lyrics for the second (or third) verse, or write a bridge, or whatever. It's part of the CRAFT of songwriting.

 

The songs I've written that I've liked the best are often the ones that seem to "write themselves" and it's almost like I'm a conduit or something, and the ideas are coming as fast as I can move a pencil to write them down. OTOH, I've done a few that I have really liked that required re-writes or just a lot of work after the initial idea lost its romance and ran out of steam.

 

I suggest doing whatever is comfortable and natural for you Lee. Certainly be willing to try different things and see what "fits" but folow the leadings of your own muse. Muses are funny - they all seem to have different methods and preferences!

 

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

pokeefe777@msn.com

[KBP]

Hi Guys,

 

Well for me it happens all sorts of ways, but one thing I do is no matter what I have to get an idea down if I have one. These little ideas are usually the basis of what I finish a song from. I am fortunate these days to be in a situation where all I do is music, my studio is my house and my point here on this earth is to create. The funny thing is that for the past 2 years, having more time for music has made less time for my girl. I love her even more for putting up with it, luckily she enjoys what I do. But anyway every month I go through and clean up all the little ideas to be backed up for a later date and find one or more that I get real inspired and finish the song in a night. Sometimes (god forgive me) I'll hear a drum loop (beat) and it will inspire an entire song. Sometimes my drummer inspires a whole song. I totally live for those songs that I cannot put down. Not because I have to finish, but because it won't let me finish. At one point in my life I was going through a phase where I thought songs were like souls They are all around you, just waiting for you to open up and recieve them. I agree with the sleep thing to, Theres been soooo many times that I go to sleep, only to wake up with an Idea that becomes my newest spine tingling, hair raising event. The instrument can be a inspiration 2, and usually dictates the general mode of the song. I love writing with a bass. Hmmmmmmmm, I love writing with any type of guitar, keyboards, synths, drum machines, samplers, loops, brass, chair squeaks, boxes, percussion, feedback, opinions, spoons, door creaks, tabletops, 4 track, 8 track, 24 track, dig, anal, radio shack mic, Nuemann, it don't matter to me because I am a complete music whore, yea. Last but not least I love writing with the people I collaborate with, cause it's always better.

 

just my 2 cents

KBP

 

PS by the way I mostly create music and help with vocal melody. But when I do write vocals it's almost always last in the chain. I usually just turn down the lights record enable a track, put on the phones, Loop the entire song and just vibe with the music. eventually a melody which will come and I'll just start making noise in this melody. during this process words some times make it out (or what sound like words). I'll then go back and listen and see what WANTED to come out of me (which is usually nothing that I would play for anyone). Then try to make a song out of it. Works 80% of the time for me, if not more. The other % usually gets trashed cause I never felt anything for it.

 

As far as Disiplin is concerned, the main disipline I'm trying out these days is to trust my instincts, instead of constantly rethinking the song on what other people want to hear. At least in the writing stage. Theres always the next 2 stages, Bringing it to the band, and then the overall production phase.

[Max Ventura]

A song is born from inspiration, but is fully realized thru discipline, yours or somebody else's.

[Lee Flier]

Wow, some great ideas y'all!

 

I should probably give everybody a little bit of background for those who haven't entirely kept up with all my ramblings (for which I certainly wouldn't fault anybody! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif) I've done lots of writing in the past, but my situation these days is a little bit different because normally, I'm in a band and I collaborate with other band members. Now, for various reasons I am mostly writing alone, with the intent of using these songs as a basis for forming a new band, and it's a lot different. I have to change my work habits somewhat because I don't have that built in ass-kicker of getting together with another person on a regular basis. Eventually, I hope to get back to that method of working, but for the time being, I have some time set aside to write and I need to take advantage of that and get a big batch of tunes down for this project.

 

Some days it is easier going than others and I do try hard not to get down on myself on the tougher days. I've been doing this long enough to know that I can't push it on the days when inspiration doesn't strike. BUT... as many of you have pointed out, once you've got the inspiration it's then a lot of hard work to get the songs fleshed out. These particular songs are especially tough because the arrangements are different from the kinds of things I've done in the past, and also because I don't have a band to help flesh them out. I am pretty open to using anything at all for composition and demos = unlike for finished products. I don't mind using loops or anything like that just to get the song down, and I'll bet it will be cool to use Sonar for some of that. So I guess that's mostly what I'm looking for - what tools and methods and psychology y'all use to work through writing and arranging especially when you're by yourself. See Dan, your post WAS a lot of help. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif There've been a lot of great ideas so far, keep 'em coming!

 

--Lee

[dadgadget]

Awesome topic ! My wife and I took a lyric writing course with Pat Pattison from Berklee College last fall in Toronto, and that was a real eye opener, he has a few books and I would highly recommend any of them. He works out of Nashville mostly, and they have a few songwriting groups he participates in. They get together with the purpose of generating ideas, lyrics, melodies and keeping very good records of their efforts. He says this combined with regular daily writing practice keeps the mind in writing mode all the time, and the work turns into fun.

 

For me personally, I like to challenge myself on the guitar, altered tunings especially get me going. As soon as your familiar frames of reference are gone by changing your tuning, (patterns, scales, chording)you are forced to think creatively, using your knowledge and experience as your guide. Soon, things begin to fall into place, and songs start to happen for me, discovering chords and ideas I might never have thought of before. I can honesly say that 90% of the songs I've written have been created using this method, just start, and see what comes out of it. In the past year I have written (and I'm in the process of recording) 14 original pieces mostly instrumental fingerstyle guitar, some solo, some "full score", but none of them had to be forced out, most of the melodic and chordal concepts are done in my head, then I set about figuring out how to play them. The main thing for creative people I believe is to keep very good records of your ideas and inspirations, they will serve you well !

[-]

There's a couple things I think about when I write songs:

 

I think of when Duke Ellington said (I'm paraphrasing here), "Just let it pour out and maybe do some reshaping later." I usually do *a lot* of reshaping, but every song I've been satisfied with has always started with a strong initial inspiration that I've "poured" out in some way.

 

The wastebasket yearns for new music. I probably only keep one out of every 20 or 30 songs I start. My method is to let a song grow and be non-judgemental towards it for as long as possible... But when you eventually turn the critical facilities on (in order to do the reshaping, disciplining part), you can get a feel if the song is working or not. If it's not working, there's no use in polishing crap... So it gets thrown out.

 

It may sound frustrating to throw away much more than what you keep, but this has the interesting side effect of making better use of the moments when you're inspired.

 

For example, when you hit an interesting musical idea, if you tell yourself, "OH MY GOD, I JUST CAME UP WITH THE BEST RIFF I'VE WRITTEN IN MONTHS! I *HOPE* I DON'T SCREW IT UP", you're going to be conscious of the creative process and rather nervous to take chances with your initial inspiration. As soon as I become aware of the creative process, my brain switches to the critical or "reshaping" mode, and IMO you want to stall your brain from doing this for as long as possible...

 

On the other hand, if you tell yourself, "I'm just messing around here. This riff I'm playing is kinda cool, and the odds are I probably won't keep it, but let's see what I can do with it if it were turned into a full song", more good things are likely to come out of the initial inspiration. If you treat ideas and inspiration as cheap -- as a dime a dozen -- then you're less likely to turn the critical facilities on when you've stumbled onto something good.

 

At least, that's what works for me. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[KenElevenShadows]

I'll answer part of this right now...

 

I write in a variety of ways because the outcomes are quite different. I like writing based on existing bass lines, or if none exist, creating the bass lines first. Sometimes, I'll design a loop and play bass to it to create the bass line, and then continue. Sometimes I'll write the bass line first, and then come up with the rhythmic percussion/drums.

 

I also really like to come up with vocal lines. I'll write these on an electronic keyboard that somewhat mimics the voice in terms of sustain (strings work pretty well). I'll sometimes use a distorted guitar for the sustain if I am stuck on the keyboard. Either way, I'll also sing the lines. I find that I have to sing the lines to really make them work well as vocal melodies -- sort of a no-brainer, but you know, it's fun to state the obvious!

 

I also sometimes will pick up the guitar and try and come up with stuff, although I find that for me (notice that I said "for me"), my vocals will really strongly follow the chords. It may be due to my limitations as both a singer and a guitarist. This following of the chords closely is not necessarily a bad thing, but this is just my personal limitation at writing with a guitar and voice. All these methods have strong points and limitations, and this is it for me.

 

Each method seems to come up with different sorts of songs, and that's a really great thing if you want to break the shackles of songwriting. Obviously, the sound or type of instrument that you are playing or emulating will be a huge factor as well. Writing melodies with legato strings may be quite different from a piano or a flute -- the melodies may greatly differ.

 

 

 

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Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/nectar

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music*travel photos*tibet*lots of stuff

"Sangsara" "Irian Jaya" & d i t h er CDs available!

http://www.elevenshadows.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Philip OKeefe]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

I have to change my work habits somewhat because I don't have that built in ass-kicker of getting together with another person on a regular basis. Eventually, I hope to get back to that method of working, but for the time being, I have some time set aside to write and I need to take advantage of that and get a big batch of tunes down for this project.

 

(SNIP)

 

I am pretty open to using anything at all for composition and demos = unlike for finished products. I don't mind using loops or anything like that just to get the song down, and I'll bet it will be cool to use Sonar for some of that. So I guess that's mostly what I'm looking for - what tools and methods and psychology y'all use to work through writing and arranging especially when you're by yourself. See Dan, your post WAS a lot of help. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif There've been a lot of great ideas so far, keep 'em coming!

 

--Lee

 

 

As far as tools go, I have and have used just about everything - drum machines, sample loops (drums and other things), sequencers, multitrack recorders, etc. etc. etc.

 

BUT!!! IMO, the best "tools" usually end up being my voice, an acoustic guitar or piano and some paper (or a small recorder).

 

The other tools usually just complicate things in the early "idea / inspiration" phase. They ARE very cool for later though, when working on arrangements and so forth.

 

Lee, if you need a good kick in the backside and want collaboration, why not put that new Sonar software and / or your AW4416 to good use? Get the idea, work it out however is most comfortable for you and then put some roughs down on one or the other and then send the stuff off to someone and "collaborate" that way. Sure, it's not as immediate (or FUN) as working together in the same room, but you can collaborate with anyone that way. You know a lot of people, and I'm sure you're "met" a lot of folks in your Internet "travels" who are into some of the same types of things you are. Why not take advantage of that?

 

Phil O'Keefe

Sound Sanctuary Recording

Riverside CA

http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html

pokeefe777@msn.com

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A couple other ideas...

 

* Have a cheap tape deck recording everything you do when you write. I have yet to buy a boombox which will automatically flip the tape to record on the other side, but I'd recommend using something like that if you can. (It's annoying to stop what you're doing every 45 minutes to flip the tape.)

 

* You didn't mention if you write lyrics or not, but if you do, I find it's helpful to tap into your subconscious thoughts and keep them in a small 50 cent notepad. Some people tap into their subconscious through, ahem, various "substances", which is not something I'm into... Instead, I tap into my subconscious in a much more dangerous way: I write down phrases and ideas when I'm driving.

 

I like to think of the subconscious as a quickly moving river which is constantly renewing itself. If you're able to stick your hand in there for just a second and grab out a word or a phrase that's on your mind, you're reaching in the same place where you can grab musical phrases when you need to write the music part of things.

 

Most of the thoughts I grab from my subconscious are nothing special, but they're *my* thoughts, and I write 'em down without critiquing them until later. Sometimes I know as I'm writing the thought down that I'll never use that particular word or phrase in a song... But it's not important *what* you write down, just so long as you're exercising your ability to access that part of your brain. (It's also important to pay attention to what's going on in traffic, too http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif )

[Tim Walters]

Some composer (Berlioz, maybe?) said "The first two bars are a gift from God. The rest is hard work." That's pretty much how it works with me. I think that every song I've written has started out with a phrase that came to me out of nowhere. My job is then to figure out what song it's part of.

 

With instrumental stuff I can always sit down, mess around, and come up with something, but I haven't developed a similar technique for lyrics, unfortunately.

[Lee Flier]

Wow, these are all GREAT, guys! popmusic, your posts especially nail it on the head because you've touched on what is probably the biggest problem I have: I'm my own worst critic. I throw out too many ideas probably before I've really had the chance to evaluate them thoroughly, and then out of the few that are left, I put an awful lot of weight on them, like you say, "This is really good and I can't screw it up!"

 

I can't remind myself enough that all songwriters throw out 20 songs for every one they keep. I really need to give myself more permission to follow through on those ideas that don't really grab me right off. They might still turn into something good, and if they don't it's not the end of the world. That's an area where collaboration has always helped me, because if I'm writing with somebody else they'll start jamming along no matter how stupid the idea might be to me. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

And yes, I do write lyrics. As most of you know on this forum, I am rarely at a loss for words. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif But lyric writing IS a little different from other kinds of writing, as you say, more subconscious. I do keep a pen and paper handy and try to write down whatever random thoughts come to mind. I got myself a microcassette recorder that I carry in the car and I just dictate ideas in that, so I don't risk getting in an accident. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

This is all great stuff! Keep it coming!

 

--Lee

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Originally posted by Lee Flier:

I got myself a microcassette recorder that I carry in the car and I just dictate ideas in that, so I don't risk getting in an accident. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

I use a microcassete recorder too, but I only use it on occasion for melodic and arrangement ideas when I'm listening to a rough mixes in the car.

 

One of the biggest advantages to having a small notepad is random access to your ideas. Later on, when I'm trying to write an actual song and I have a fragment of a melody, I can flip open the notepad to a random page and see if there's something which fits the melody. I circle any phrase which could be a potential title, so my eye goes immediately to those words when I flip open to that page.

 

Also, my handwriting is so sloppy (even moreso in the car), that I have come up with interesting variations on phrases simply because I couldn't read what I had written there in the first place http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

If I were to dictate lyric ideas into a microcassette recorder, I'd have to spend the time listening to the ideas, write 'em down, and be totally embarassed at three quarters of them. ("What the heck was I *thinking* that day?!?!?") The internal censor would kick in, I probably would not write down most of the ideas I had, and I would most likely just frustrate myself in the end. That's just me, though.

 

 

 

This message has been edited by popmusic on 04-26-2001 at 04:40 PM

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Tim Walters:

Some composer (Berlioz, maybe?) said "The first two bars are a gift from God. The rest is hard work." That's pretty much how it works with me. I think that every song I've written has started out with a phrase that came to me out of nowhere. My job is then to figure out what song it's part of.

 

Good quote and good philosophy, Tim. I'll add a thought from Aaron Copeland. "As a composer, it has to sound like you made the only decision possible."