Music Player Network

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Form Over Function Gone Insane #3004545 08/22/19 04:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Anderton Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Apple released its Goldman Sachs credit card on Tuesday, and already on its support page, customers are warned not to let the card come into contact with leather, denim, another credit card, loose change, or other "potentially abrasive objects" because the coating (which doesn't show the credit card number, by the way) can be damaged. They suggest putting the card in a pocket, wallet, or bag made of "soft materials" (does anyone here have a wallet made of "soft materials"?). They also recommend cleaning the card with a microfiber cloth moistened with isopropyl alcohol. Great...now I have to spend time cleaning a credit card to keep it happy.

I love Apple's elegant designs, but this is insane. I don't have an Apple credit card, but if I did, I wouldn't want to have to carry around a plush little shrine just to hold the card. But maybe there's an ulterior motive, and Apple will soon release the iCardCarrier, which for $99, will provide a climate-controlled, non-abrasive environment for your card.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3004575 08/22/19 07:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,828
davedoerfler Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,828
I'm not standing in line to get one. laugh


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: davedoerfler] #3004587 08/22/19 08:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Anderton Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Well, Apple did promise to “the most significant change in the credit card experience in 50 years.” I guess having a card you're afraid to use qualifies.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3004635 08/23/19 04:08 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 956
harmonizer Offline
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 956
Not letting the credit card contact leather means don't store it in your wallet.
Not letting the credit card contact another credit card also means don't store it in your wallet.

A credit card that should not be stored in a wallet.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3004738 08/23/19 08:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 20,535
Dave Bryce Offline
KCFFL Champ '14,'16,'18
20k Club
Offline
KCFFL Champ '14,'16,'18
20k Club
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 20,535
They'll release a case for it shortly, I'm sure. $49.

wacko

dB

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Dave Bryce] #3004740 08/23/19 08:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 138
Mike Rivers Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by Dave Bryce
They'll release a case for it shortly, I'm sure. $49.


This will be soon followed by the release of cases for it by about 30 different companies, for half the price. And if Samsung offers a similar credit card, they'll make cases for that, too. But they'll never make a case for a Bank of America or Chase or Wells Fargo credit card because (like phones) those aren't the most popular brand.
. . . . Sez the man who has been unable to find a case for his Motorola phone.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3004750 08/23/19 10:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 829
paulkondig Offline
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 829
For me one credit card is enough!

Apple is asking too much, just too keep a piece of plastic, free from anything?


I have nothing to say, and I am saying it, and that is poetry as I need it!
John Cage
Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: paulkondig] #3004792 08/24/19 05:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Anderton Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Originally Posted by paulkondig
For me one credit card is enough!

Apple is asking too much, just too keep a piece of plastic, free from anything?


I think the problem is that is ISN'T plastic, it's titanium. Or maybe it's unobtainium. I'm not sure.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3004830 08/24/19 03:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 2
Growler Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 2
It's like a religious cult. The Apple sheep will buy whatever is presented to them. Sad, really. But that's life in 2019. freak

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Growler] #3004938 08/25/19 02:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,726
Joe Muscara Offline
Triple Secret Banninated
20k Club
Offline
Triple Secret Banninated
20k Club
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,726
Originally Posted by Growler
It's like a religious cult. The Apple sheep will buy whatever is presented to them. Sad, really. But that's life in 2019. freak

"Buy"? It's free. I signed up because it doesn't cost me anything, and I asked for the hard card because it was free too. I don't plan on carrying it. I haven't decided how much I'll use the card in general, but since it's in Apple Pay, I always have it with me.

from Daring Fireball

Quote
My first instinct was to make fun of this: This is no big deal, because it’s not like anyone uses a leather wallet or wears denim jeans. I mean, who cleans a credit card? But after thinking about it, I feel like this really is no big deal because all of the credit cards I’ve ever owned get used-looking over time. If Apple Card gets genuinely sloppy-looking after carrying it like you would any other card — if it’s atypically prone to staining or scratching — that’s a problem. But I suspect these are instructions for obsessives who want to keep their cards in mint condition.


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Growler] #3004966 08/25/19 06:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,544
KenElevenShadows Offline
10k Club
Offline
10k Club
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,544
Originally Posted by Growler
It's like a religious cult. The Apple sheep will buy whatever is presented to them. Sad, really. But that's life in 2019. freak


If I choose to use Apple stuff, that doesn't make me a sheep. Some of the stuff just works better. Some of it does not. Using a few Apple products doesn't make me a sheep any more than using PC or Android products makes you a loser.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Growler] #3004995 08/25/19 11:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Anderton Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Originally Posted by Growler
It's like a religious cult. The Apple sheep will buy whatever is presented to them. Sad, really. But that's life in 2019. freak


Actually, the card itself has a lot to recommend it. Not having numbers on it means more security when handing the card over for purchases. Payment is always due on the last day of the month, none of this arbitrary due date stuff. You get cash back right then and there on purchases (3% on apple products, 2% on Apple Pay, 1% everywhere else). If a charge looks suspicious, you can see its location on a map. There are all kinds of "smart" elements built into Apple Pay that have considerable merit.

I'm just upset about Apple's continuing emphasis on form over function, like remotes where you can't feel which end is which, and are so thin they're hard to hold on to...or the trash can computer that was clever as hell, except for the thermal engineering that made it impossible upgrade...or eliminating the analog headphone jack (either so it could be a little thinner, or if you're a conspiracy buff, so Apple could have tighter control over DRM). To me, a credit card is not an objet d'art, it's a thing you carry around with you to pay for stuff. You'd think that the function of being able to carry it around with you would be prioritized.

My only other complaint is that the Apple is making a big deal out of "Created by Apple, Not a Bank." That seemed to imply that Apple was going into the banking business itself with its vast cash reserves. But if you scroll down to the very bottom of the page on How it Works, in teeny tiny type, you'll see it's issued by Goldman Sachs. However, given the consumer-friendly elements, it's clear that it wasn't created by a bank :), even if it is issued by one.

Affinity cards are nothing new. They're mostly associated with charitable organizations where a portion of what you spend goes to the organization. That's been tainted in recent years by celebrity affinity cards that charge high rates of interest, and don't do any good for anyone. That's not what Apple is doing, and a lot of the whole Apple Pay thing is downright consumer-friendly. If it forces other card companies to follow Apple's lead, that's fine with me. Just make it so I can carry the card around without worrying I'm going to wreck it somehow.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3004997 08/25/19 11:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 12,851
R
RABid Offline
10k Club
Offline
10k Club
R
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 12,851
Love my Apple Watch, have no need for the card.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3005005 08/26/19 12:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,544
KenElevenShadows Offline
10k Club
Offline
10k Club
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,544
I generally like the iPhone I have (an old one, but nonetheless, it keeps working extremely well). It. Just. Works. One gripe about it would be the lack of a mini-SD slot or something similar to have more storage. Thankfully, most of the areas I go have wifi, and I can store a lot of stuff online and access it. I like the reasonably robust encryption and security from iPhones as well.

As for Photoshop, the iMac is a dream to use.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: KenElevenShadows] #3005011 08/26/19 12:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Anderton Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Originally Posted by KenElevenShadows
I generally like the iPhone I have (an old one, but nonetheless, it keeps working extremely well). It. Just. Works. One gripe about it would be the lack of a mini-SD slot or something similar to have more storage. Thankfully, most of the areas I go have wifi, and I can store a lot of stuff online and access it. I like the reasonably robust encryption and security from iPhones as well.


Well I have both Android and iPhone, so I get to be a loser AND an elitist! Frankly, the Android gets more use because I put a 128 GB SD card in it so it has a ton of music, and it also has a user-replaceable battery. The iPhone is slicker and handles audio apps way better; the Android is messy, but more utilitarian. Whether you like your Android or not depends on which version it's running. With an iPhone, you don't have options...but you don't have confusion, either.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3005065 08/26/19 11:23 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 138
Mike Rivers Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by Anderton

Affinity cards are nothing new. They're mostly associated with charitable organizations where a portion of what you spend goes to the organization. That's been tainted in recent years by celebrity affinity cards that charge high rates of interest, and don't do any good for anyone.


Isn't that what airline-branded credit cards are? I don't know what their interest rate is, but they often have a fairly steep annual feel after the first year to get you hooked. But they offer travel benefits (or rather, giving us back what used to be free but which now we have to pay for) like checked baggage and early boarding, and bonus frequent flyer miles. I haven't sprung for one yet but I'd be tempted if air travel contributed to my income, which it doesn't.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3005351 08/27/19 06:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Anderton Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Speaking of airlines...

Dangerous MacBook Pro Banned By Virgin Australia

Faulty MacBook Pro Batteries Face FAA No-Fly Rule

Whereas Virgin still allows the laptops as carry-on because they believe the flight attendants will be able to deal with a laptop that bursts into flames, the FAA won't allow them in the cargo hold OR as carry-on. It's estimated about half a million laptops on the US and Canada are affected.

Now, if function was more important than form, the batteries would be user-replaceable...you could travel with the battery removed, then buy one that's certified as not having the same problems as the ones being recalled when you arrive at your destination. And then when you go through security on future flights, you just pop out the battery, and show the "certified" label so they'll let you through. You think Apple would have learned something from the Samsung Note 7 fiasco.

I guess in the future you could carry around a battery pack that powers the computer via USB-C, but I don't think we're there yet.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3005896 08/31/19 04:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,544
KenElevenShadows Offline
10k Club
Offline
10k Club
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,544
Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by KenElevenShadows
I generally like the iPhone I have (an old one, but nonetheless, it keeps working extremely well). It. Just. Works. One gripe about it would be the lack of a mini-SD slot or something similar to have more storage. Thankfully, most of the areas I go have wifi, and I can store a lot of stuff online and access it. I like the reasonably robust encryption and security from iPhones as well.


Well I have both Android and iPhone, so I get to be a loser AND an elitist! Frankly, the Android gets more use because I put a 128 GB SD card in it so it has a ton of music, and it also has a user-replaceable battery. The iPhone is slicker and handles audio apps way better; the Android is messy, but more utilitarian. Whether you like your Android or not depends on which version it's running. With an iPhone, you don't have options...but you don't have confusion, either.




It's fun to be both an elitist and a loser! grin

That's a good summary of the difference of the two with the one added comment that the iPhone has noticeably better security protocols in general. And good point about the ease of battery replacement for the Android, which I forgot to mention. I had to take my iPhone in to a Best Buy to get the battery replaced, which cost $29 when I did it but I believe is normally $75.

Regarding the Apple Card, I am not quite sure what to make of it, but the form vs. function discussion here is interesting because its form does perform a function, which is to keep some of the crucial information out of the hands of someone who might find the card. Greater security. This is all assuming, of course, that the "smart" functions are robust physically and otherwise, which thankfully has generally been the case with Apple.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: KenElevenShadows] #3005909 08/31/19 04:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Anderton Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Originally Posted by KenElevenShadows

Regarding the Apple Card, I am not quite sure what to make of it, but the form vs. function discussion here is interesting because its form does perform a function, which is to keep some of the crucial information out of the hands of someone who might find the card. Greater security.


True...sorta. It's possible to implement that kind of functionality in a form that's not so unforgiving. Chip cards come to mind. There's no real reason for any credit card to have numbers any more except that not everything has a chip reader. But we're dealing with Apple: They create the Apple Pay ecosystem, so they get to create the rules...and one of them is they don't have to be compatible with any payment option other than their own.

Quote
his is all assuming, of course, that the "smart" functions are robust physically and otherwise, which thankfully has generally been the case with Apple.


Well...not really. Apple is just as subject to hacking as banks, the defense department, government agencies, etc. They are good, though, and some of the past security breaches (like releasing nude photos of celebrities) was technically not due to a lack of security on Apple's part, but from data obtained from other sources. Still, it caused Apple to realize they were not taking adequate steps to protect the integrity of iCloud accounts, and took steps to remedy. The most worrisome one is this one...

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/apple-iphones-potential-massive-security-220624587.html

And while the following didn't cause any damage, they show what could have happened if the hackers had malevolent intent.

https://www.myce.com/news/apple-icloud-security-86356/

Then there was this one...

https://www.techlicious.com/blog/facetime-bug-lets-people-eavesdrop/

But Apple's biggest problems are rarely self-induced, they come from either hacks of other systems, or from being dependent on particular components. In that respect, everyone is vulnerable, including Apple.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...uter-mac-os-windows-update-a8141846.html

The security thing is about to get a whole lot worse if/when the IoT takes off.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3006131 09/02/19 04:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,192
Caevan O'Shite Offline
20k Club
Offline
20k Club
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 25,192
Originally Posted by Anderton
But maybe there's an ulterior motive, and Apple will soon release the iCardCarrier, which for $99, will provide a climate-controlled, non-abrasive environment for your card.

Attached Files The Ugly and The Good.jpg

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~
_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _
Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3006395 09/04/19 01:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,544
KenElevenShadows Offline
10k Club
Offline
10k Club
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,544
Craig, yiiiipes. Alright, not quite as secure as I was hoping....

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: KenElevenShadows] #3006434 09/04/19 04:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Anderton Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Originally Posted by KenElevenShadows
Craig, yiiiipes. Alright, not quite as secure as I was hoping....


Sadly, nothing is secure...and it's only going to get worse. Much worse. I predict that 10 years from now, doing banking online will be considered something the older generation did because they were too clueless to recognize the dangers. Cash will make a comeback.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3006436 09/04/19 04:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,828
davedoerfler Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,828
Originally Posted by Anderton
Cash will make a comeback.


I really, really, hope you are wrong about this. I never use cash. Would like things to stay that way. But that's just me. Time will tell.


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: davedoerfler] #3006981 09/07/19 02:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Anderton Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Originally Posted by davedoerfler
Originally Posted by Anderton
Cash will make a comeback.


I really, really, hope you are wrong about this. I never use cash. Would like things to stay that way. But that's just me. Time will tell.


"Time" is about 10 years, when quantum computing starts going mainstream. A system that's based on processing the ones and zeros simultaneously means that you can't have encryption based on mathematical formulas. Granted, the immense power that will render current encryption methods--as in, ALL of them--null and void may also lead to new encryption methods. But if experience has taught us anything, it's that by definition, the hackers are ahead of any solution because it takes a finite amount of time to find a solution once an illicit point of entry has been found. Even blockchains could be hacked with quantum computers.

So, we're headed to a world with no privacy and no security. Have a nice weekend!

Last edited by Anderton; 09/07/19 05:38 AM.
Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3006991 09/07/19 04:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,828
davedoerfler Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,828
Originally Posted by Anderton
So, we're headed to a world with no privacy and no security.


Lucky us. shudder

Originally Posted by Anderton
Have a nice weekend!

Thanks. You too. wink


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3007012 09/07/19 12:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 956
harmonizer Offline
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 956
Well we have already reached the point where the most secure way to store and remember passwords to online sites (ones that you only access from home, not "work passwords") is to write them down on a piece of paper.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3007028 09/07/19 02:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 138
Mike Rivers Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 138
I'm a real grumbler when it comes to user interfaces, particularly when you get a replacement for a familiar product (like, for instance, a car) and find that the knobs and buttons have been replaced with a touch screen. "Oh, great - I'll have the power of a computer to make it work just the way I want it to." Nope!!!!

I'm on a trip now and I have a rental car, a 2019 Toyota Camry. I usually rent Camrys when I can because that's what I drive at home, and it's nice to have a familiar car. For the lat few year, the Camry has had an LCD on the dashboard which didn't do too much more than display the back-up camera, and, when I'm on a long drive, can switch over between the radio (I'm a radio listener) and a Bluetooth feed from my phone. There's a fairly informative small digital display that can display up to four things such as the odometer, distance before the gas tank is empty, average gas mileage, and such, configurable from an intuitive menu, once you figure out what the icons mean and how to select them. On the new one, that display is still there, but the choices are much more limited. The miles/gallon display has been replaced by a bar graph that occupies half of the big LCD and you can't turn it off. Settings such as how long the headlights stay on after leaving the car when they're switched to the Auto mode, how, and how many doors are unlocked when you park the car, whether or not it beeps when using the remote control key. I'd customize the rental car to make it so it doesn't bug me, but this one doesn't offer those options other than by taking it to the dealer. Press the right button and the big LCD becomes the radio display and it's a touch screen to change stations. In my own car, I don't have to take my eyes off the road to touch the right area of the screen, I can just run my finger along the row of buttons and know that, for instance, the third one is the station I want. There's a 600 page manual in the glove compartment, and that's where I found out what I couldn't do.

And it's not just me.

Remember a couple of years ago when a couple of US Navy ships were involved in collisions at sea? Turns out that The National Transportation Safety Board found the USS McCain collision was caused by a helmsman who was confused by his touch-screen displays. He meant to slow the ship down, but instead made a sharp right turn.

An investigation led to more than 100 recommendations to improve safety and readiness on ships. Turns out, the touch screen controls for speed are not preferred by a lot of personnel. They want physical throttles instead. The Navy has taken note for new ships and will roll out a retrofit to change existing ones. Meanwhile, Eckstein said it’s not just the control screens but also deficiencies in training that have caused confusion. Sounds a bit like an airplane that's been grounded for the better part of a year. Listen to the podcast or read the text here at Marketplace Tech 9/6/2019

More creeping meatballism.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3007057 09/07/19 06:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
Anderton Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,741
And to return to the OP...you can now get a $139 figured walnut wood carrying case, with custom image, for your Apple credit card. Or you can get the classless, plebian $39 model. No, I am not making this up.

Last edited by Anderton; 09/07/19 06:10 PM.
Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3007076 09/07/19 08:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 58
D
dboomer Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
D
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 58
Hey Mike ... My Prius Prime has over 1100 pages of owner manual. This is a consumer device! What make it worse is you cannot look up item in the index unless you know the correct Toyota term for it. I see it as a big problem for product designers. I can give you a million features to tweak but we’ll never live long enough to find and understand them all.

Re: Form Over Function Gone Insane [Re: Anderton] #3007082 09/07/19 09:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,828
davedoerfler Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,828
Originally Posted by Anderton


facepalm


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Anderton 

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3