PA Systems - accurate recreation of on stage sound:

[fantasticsound]

Those infra-red, optical gates that connect behind the mic but before the cable seem tp work pretty well though.

 

That's interesting about the Wall Of Sound. I'd never heard anything but kudos for it, but wondered why it went away.

[Dr. Ellwood]

BOING!!!!

[BlueZet]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

...

Now, a lot of PA guys will give you a decent sound if you give them half a chance. But if you fill the room with sound and they are just trying to keep the vocals above the din, you get what you get. ...

 

I'll tell you this... given the current state of concert sound, there is absolutely NO reason for (large format concert) sound to ever suck, unless the operator sucks. These guys have everything at their disposal, in qualities and quantities that we could never have imagined, even only ten years ago.

 

Bill

a lot could be solved by musicians and sound men actually TALKING to each other, or listening for that matter...

I am a guitarist and on the rare occasions I have the opportunity to work with a soundman (vs setting up ourselves, doing a soundcheck, hoping for the best and not touching anything for the rest of the evening) I assume the guy knows more or less what he's doing until he proves otherwise, and most of them know VERY well.

OK, so when I started out I wasn't always as happy with my sound, until I actually went up to the soundman BEFORE soundcheck and told him how I liked my guitar to sound. The result: he told ME how he thought I should set up my gear, helped me with my amp tone, then mic'ed it and it was perfect.

Ever since, I go and have a talk with the soundman, so he knows what I like and I know what he likes - usually we both have to compromise, but in the end, if you sound great, who cares? not me, I sounded great. Not the sound man, he made a band sound great - cause no matter how much anyone will moan and bitch about sound men, I believe their aim is to make a band sound GOOD, not the other way

 

although I have to say I am speaking about FOH here, on stage it can sound HORRIBLE as hell with all the different monitor mixes fighting for space .

 

and another thing for the musicians (guitar players)- if the soundman doesn't ask you to turn up or down volume/treble/bass/whatever... you may just be the lucky guy who has his amp completely in balance with the rest or... he might not be as interested in your sounding good after all

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Have any of you experienced a more than slight difference in the overall band sound through a large pa system when compared to your on stage mix? Lets discuss your experiences!

I've been thinking about this thread and, just to confuse things further, I've met a few mixers who like to (subtly) change a band's sound throughout the set. Typically, they play with the drums' EQ, but I suppose the other instruments are fair game too.

 

The rationale behind this is that every song sounds slightly different and keeps the audience's interest better. I think it's a really good idea too.

[fantasticsound]

You absolutely change things throughout a performance.

 

Besides the environment changing, the musicians changing their timbres, etc., sometimes a particular song has a different combination of tones that don't sound quite right with settings from previous songs.

 

PA is affected by temperature, humidity, air flow (wind), and other factors. In many instances, these factors can change in a few minutes, let alone an entire performance. Every mixer who has worked outside deals with major changes in environment between soundcheck and performance.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Neil.. because I have experienced this I will ask the question: how do you handle the sometimes more than noticeable and distracting delay of your own signal comming back at you from the out in the venue back onto the stage? and why does this happen sometimes and sometimes it doesnt happen at all or at least is almost non existant?

[LPCustom]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Neil.. because I have experienced this I will ask the question: how do you handle the sometimes more than noticeable and distracting delay of your own signal comming back at you from the out in the venue back onto the stage? and why does this happen sometimes and sometimes it doesnt happen at all or at least is almost non existant?

I've experienced what you're talking about, Lee. I've actually screwed up my timing in a song from the echo throwing me off (it was nearly as loud as my monitor). I got some nasty looks from my band mates for playing out of sync.

 

I think it has to do with the opposite wall in the venue. If it's a hard surface and relatively flat or an opposite corner, it will come back at you (gyms are the worst). If it's got lots of angles or is covered in drapes, it usually doesn't. At least not that noticeable.

 

I've noticed it a lot more during sound checks than while we were playing. I think the crowd might absorb some of it during the show.

 

The worst I've had was at an outdoor venue (a high school football stadium). The echo was pretty loud and was like a half second delay. I had to put on headphones while I was playing because it was so distracting. I got some pretty odd looks for that, too.

 

Some venues wanted us to put our amps in a line across the back of the stage and some had us put them on the wings angled toward the center of crowd. Seems like I remember more echoes when our amps were lined up in the back. I also seem to remember more echoes when the stage was higher than on lower stages (I prefer high stages, though).

 

In other places we tied into their sound systems. I've never noticed echoes in those places.

 

There was one place in Statesboro, GA. where there was a big column (about three feet wide) about 20 feet in front of where I was standing (an old warehouse). From one place on the stage I could hear a reverb effect of what I was playing. If I moved I couldn't hear it anymore. Weird that.

 

Oh, and I've never heard the same sounds at the mixing board as I do on stage. During sound checks, you get one sound on stage then walk out to the mixer and listen and the sound is quite different. I guess that could partly be the effect of the monitors on stage.

 

I've never gigged with a wireless system (they were too expensive when I gave it up). So I can't speak to what my own guitar sounded like in both places.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Ya LP...its a strange feeling...there was a very large hall called Roma Hall that all the groups used to play at allot... this place was huge and the different rooms where partitioned off by huge floor to ceiling hard folding doors...what happened was as the crowd size would grow during the evening the hall crew would push back these doors making the venue size double immediately!! So you would go from a depth of about 300 feet to 600 feet NOW!!..wow ya wanna talk about changing dynamics...when they did that it felt like somebody cut your power by half and all the room dynamics you had originally sound checked for where instantly gone! So if you where using a snake the sound guy had to be off to the side of the room which was bad enough but when they rolled the doors he lost all his perspective on how to tune the NEW instant room!!!

[fantasticsound]

LOL!

 

Yes, hard, flat surfaces like walls can often return almost as much energy as you have onstage. The Presidential Ballroom at Opryland Hotel has this problem, in spades. I've stood onstage and heard a slap that would've made playing virtually impossible for me, yet people are forced to play on that stage all the time.

 

The Delta Ballroom, OTOH, sounds wonderful.

 

That venue you describe, Ell is definitely a performance nightmare. Two distinct environments and no time to adjust.

 

LP covered most of it. Crowd absorbs a lot, so slappy soundchecks can often turn out much better during the performance.. but not always.

 

Stadiums suck for performance, especially if they put you through their designed to throw voice PA with no lows and speakers pointing in every direction. Now you have sound returning to you from the opposite side of a large area. Talk about delay!

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Like most other sound guys who pay attention, I play the console like you play guitar. That is the reason to have a sound guy in the first place. Bands are not "Set it and forget it" propositions, they change levels and sounds all night long. (Besides any additional features that might eb added at FOH, like verbs and such that require personal attention.)

 

Bill

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

Like most other sound guys who pay attention, I play the console like you play guitar. That is the reason to have a sound guy in the first place. Bands are not "Set it and forget it" propositions, they change levels and sounds all night long. (Besides any additional features that might eb added at FOH, like verbs and such that require personal attention.)

 

Bill

You must have a script to follow? when you have to adjust and add in each tune especially when you are not the permanent soundman for a group.

[fantasticsound]

Generally, mixing at a club, where you see different bands every night, you rarely get a setlist, let alone direction from the band. Some bands will give you instruction as to specific needs, but they are few and far between until they're paying your fee directly. Then, you may or may not have a script, but rehearsals and previous performances give you the information you need to coax great sound from their performance and the PA.

 

On major tours there are often scripts, or pages of notes from rehearsal that guide the mixer through the show.

 

The simplest example I can give you is my first professional mixing gig, at Opryland USA for Opry Star, Mike Snider.

 

His show was a mix of bluegrass music and corn-pone comedy. We had no rehearsals. They arrived 10 minutes before beginning and did their show.

 

I was tasked with mapping out the performance in case I was sick or otherwise unable to mix. I outlined the format of the show.

 

1. My VOG (Voice Of God) introduction to instrumental
   
2. vocal
   
3. banter
   
4. vocal
   
5. banter
   
6. instrumental w/instrument switch
   
7. vocal
   
8. end with Amazing Grace - instrumental, begun by Mike with his harmonica and lots of reverb
   

 

The poor acoustic enviroment of the area, wind noise and old, worn out gear necessitated turning mics off here and there. Knowing what type of song was likely to come next gave me (and anyone filling in) a good idea where vocal mics could be muted (no gates) for the background vocals or at the end when Mike's banjo mic would be inactive for the rest of the show and could be muted.

 

I also included notes about a few songs Mike usually cycled into the show to keep it somewhat fresh, as there were times the onstage performance required a bit of help from the mixer for parts to be heard properly. There's nothing quite as dumb to watch, IMHO, than a rhythm guitar player moving into the mic to get extra gain for a single note run and nothing audible changing in the system. Those moments have to be mapped out or lost because they come and go quickly.

 

That's a simple setup. Now imagine a band that uses the mixer to provide complex effects and change timbres of instruments. There's a reason big acts with their own lights and sound rehearse for days or weeks to perfect their shows.

[Dr. Ellwood]

A great example Neil, and thanks... when you get a chance please comment on how you guys use the intercom system (inside dope on what the heck you are saying) while the band is playing and who are you talking too exactly.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Originally posted by ellwood:

...please comment on how you guys use the intercom system (inside dope on what the heck you are saying) while the band is playing and who are you talking too exactly.

I hate wearing them. How can you mix with them on? Now, in sound you might be talking to the monitor guys, or the systems guy if there is a problem. But 40% of the time, at rock shows, they are yakking about the broads in the audience. This is particularly true with the lighting guys, video guys, etc.

 

CocaCola TAPES the headset conversations (or at least, they used to...) at their events. Now THAT is a great way to assign blame if there is a problem, and to keep people quiet.

 

It is really, really anoying of you are trying to do a show, and you've got road guys running their mouths in your ear about the breasts of the chick in front of them.

 

In the theater, it is a given that you keep your mouth shut unless there is a show-related issue to discuss. Way too many people on the line, and too many people with multiple lines in their ears. It's not like you get fined or anything, it is just considered good form.

 

Bill

[Dr. Ellwood]

Hay great Bill thanks... is there ever a reason for lighting guys to be in communication?with the sound guys? I know some shows I have played at the lighting console is bumped up right next to the mixer position. are the two somehow related as far as coordination is concerned? I cant usually see the light or sound consoles or the guys running them usually except when the overheads go down for a second sometimes I will see them moving around...I mean I cannot see if they are talking to each other.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Hay great Bill thanks... is there ever a reason for lighting guys to be in communication?with the sound guys?

I think they put the desks together just for convenience. After all, it's easier to protect one bunch of cables than two, you take up less room at the dance floor and so on.

 

I've worked as a lighting tech and IIRC, I never had any professional reason to talk to the mixer during a gig.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Originally posted by ellwood:

... is there ever a reason for lighting guys to be in communication?with the sound guys? ..

God, I hope not.

 

Seriously, they are usually on different channels, though they may need to know something like "Hey, the show is about to start!", but usually there is no reason for interdepartmental communication... it would just confuse things. The Lighting guy is usually continually calling spotlight cues to the spots, video guys are calling camera takes, etc... and I know I'd not want to have to listen to that chatter while trying to do my job.

 

 

Bill

[Dr. Ellwood]

Ya didnt think so!! Just checking..thanks Bill and Neil, LP and Vince

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

Originally posted by ellwood:

...please comment on how you guys use the intercom system (inside dope on what the heck you are saying) while the band is playing and who are you talking too exactly.

...But 40% of the time, at rock shows, they are yakking about the broads in the audience. This is particularly true with the lighting guys, video guys, etc...

 

Bill

No doubt!

 

Seriously, I rarely use Clearcom, even when available. As Bill mentioned, it's impractical to wear those things and properly mix a music show. On many modern stages, the monitor mixer has in-ear monitors on. Switching back and forth would be ridiculous.

 

At corporate gigs the mixer sometimes has to wear them to take cues from the director or producer, but most times they're sitting next to each other. In that case, the sound mixer simply hears the calls by proximity. (Though everyone speaks quietly lest they interupt or annoy the convention attendees.

 

My second gig with a major label artist I really could've used Clearcom. I was mixing monitors. We had a bit of feedback early. Fortunately, the FOH mixer realized it was the reverb that was driving it on his end. (Usually feedback can be traced back to the monitor rig in concert setups. With speakers pointed at mics, the reasons should be rather obvious. ) Later in the set, the tour bus driver walked up and asked, "When is Vince (Gill) coming out to perform with her?" Vince was the headliner and had recorded a duet with the artist I was mixing on her current album. No one coordinated Vince joining her onstage, his mixers were nowhere to be found, and I couldn't alert our FOH mixer to be ready. As luck would have it, Vince came out from the opposite wing, but went to the existing, wired, vocal mic for our fiddle player. Although Ms. Fiddle Player was thrown a bit (she was doubling on rhythm guitar and Vince was in front of her monitor. ) it went very well and the FOH mixer picked him up immediately. I sure would've liked Clearcom to give FOH the heads up, though.

 

I've worked a lot on local crew as a spot-op. The conversation you hear when spot cues are relatively simple can be hilarious.

 

There was one show I spotted where they had dual channel Clearcom. Somehow the LD ended up on one channel and his techs backstage on another. He was swearing up and down because they wouldn't (couldn't) answer him when a fixture or dimmer channel stopped working. Meanwhile, I had both channels, one in each ear and could hear him bitching on the right and his techs, with their mic open, talking to one another backstage. I finally interupted the LD to tell him to switch channels to reach them.

 

Then there was the concert Counting Crows decided to completely deviate from their set list without telling the LD. All his programming was off as he struggled to identify each song as they began playing. Talk about swearing! And in British-English. There's nothing quite so amusing to Americans than a Brit swearing. Between the unique phrases and the accent it was all we could do to keep from laughing out loud at the poor LD.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Another great bit of stories ..keep em commin!! this is a VERY interesting thread to me! if it gets too far down the page I'm gonna bump AGAIN!! I have another question.. when Ive been able to go to concerts like the Stones here a couple of weeks ago or when I have seen Pink Floyd..the way the songs where choreographed with the accents in the music and the lighting it just seemed to me like the sound guys and the lighting guys had to be in constant communication? OR is it like a huge complex version when we program our chases and trigger the drummer? (I know thats pretty simple stuff but..)... I mean is it all automated somehow? see these are the kinds of things that are so completely foreign to guys like me that just play.. I have many times been on stage playing with all this activity going on but never understood it..I am so busy playing I dont know the interworkings of them? Ok an IF the lights and sound are somehow automated... does the band have to sycronize their playing to it? if they do thats yet another level of expertise having nothing to do with their music!!

[musicalhair]

yeah, great thread! Thanks Bill and Neil especially for sharing your views and experience, and thanks Ellwood for keeping this thing going with your insights and questions.

 

I did a very little bit of sound at a blues club and learned somethings I probably would have been better off knowing back then.

[Dr. Ellwood]

For sure Hair!!! theres as much going on OFF stage as there is ON stage..and lots of times more talent OFF stage than ON too!!!

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Okay, here's a situation... local bands got together last night to perform for hurricane relief. They involved a local promoter, got the Civic Arena (about 18,000 seats), all the sound, lights, video, labor, all donated by local companies and orgs. I assume that the Arena's people donated their time. The local stage hands donated ther time, all the bands played for free, a local store donated a Gretch for a raffle, which was signed by all the performers. A bevey of past sports stars came in to speak, including guys like Franco Harris. A lot of the local DJs spoke and introduced acts, and a local TV guy was the MC.

 

The bands went from hip-hop, DJ stuff, through country, folk, new age, rock, ...one group even had a cellist.

 

The Clarks, Rusted Root, The Poverty Neck Hillbillies, Donnie Iris and the Cruisers, Joe Grushecky and the Iron City House Rockers, Bill Deasy, Good Brother Earl, Crave, Margot B., B E Taylor and others, rocked the stage all night. But on top of that, the various guitarists wound all 'drop in' on each other during their sets, some of the bands sequed into the next by adding members from the next act on their last song, and a number of the singers would just 'drop in' on each other to add to the vocals. (To put this in perspective, Rusted Root usually has around 50 inputs, though for this show they dropped it down significantly. We're still talking about a hellacious number of channels, with no rehersals, all on the fly.)

 

All this looks great and seem wonderful, but what does it mean for production? On an all-volunteer show???? I'm big on planning and pre-production work. Though I was approached a couple of weeks ago and they did pump me (and probably every other source) for information, I was not actually involved in any of the setup. (nice touch on that... each acoustic rig and the bass rig all had matching floor tuners in line.)

 

I arrived at the venue at 6:30 for a 7PM show. Brian (from Train) walked me throught the setup, and it seemed as though they had all of the bases covered. I was on stage with Brian and John (from The Clarks) all night, doing the mic setups for the set changes. Mostly, we ran out specialty mics (for things like cellos or front line percussion or horns) and chased down the acoustic DIs, moved some guitar rig mics around.

 

It really went very smoothly. There were no major cockups, though we ran out of places to plug stuff in (AC quad boxes) at one point nsd had to scramble for the next setup. But there were enough vocal mics, wireless mics, guitar rigs and mics, turntables, acoustic setups, and dedicated mics for percussion, horns, and instruments like that cello. The monitor guys were way on top of it; everybody worked together, and the show ran smoothly and was only about 20 minutes long. (I chalk most of that up to the DJs and sports guys, all of whom talked longer than the planners expected them to talk.)

 

The LD did the whole show on the fly, so I'll bet there was a lot of talk on the headsets. We did the stage work on the fly, but as I said, it was so well set up that we had no issues. I don't know what the FOH guys did, but they undoubtedly have less hair today than they did yesterday morning.

 

Commcast recorded the show. A friend recorded it to two RADARs, too, with individual outs from each mic.

 

I was there until 1am or 1:30, because I could see that they were short-handed for the load-out. (to be expected with volunteer labor.) Then a bunch of us went out to a private club and raised a few. Nice night. I've worked major tours that were not as well organized.

 

Bill

[GtrWiz]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Originally posted by Vince C.:

Originally posted by ellwood:

ok the question then is this ... did your guitar sound like you wanted it to... and was it what you expected tone wise out of your rig..was it what you are used to hearing?

Excuse me for sounding obtuse but doesn't that depend a lot on the aesthetic sense of the guy doing the FOH mix? Also, the number of people present at the gig (assuming it's indoors) can make a big difference to the sound, so the FOH sound can change in the course of an evening.

 

Or am I missing the point here?

I dont know? Im not sure if you are missing it... i guess the question is ..is your amp going to sound the same exactly comming out of the PA as it does at your amplifiers speaker cabinet? and if it doesnt ..why doesnt it? OR is it possiable to have NO coloration of your tone out of the mains?

I once had the chance to watch Eric Johnson soundcheck. I found it odd that someone who is sooo obsessed with his tone, that he spends hours just positioning his pedals, wouldn't tour with his own PA. At least mics, cables, and some kind of monitoring system. any thoughts?

[Dr. Ellwood]

OK..Neil and Bill...please tell how YOU would mike up a 1960A bottom? (Im doing the doublecheck on our guy) just for kicks!! would you use two SM57s or one and where would point the mike" or would you a different mike? (which we DONT have)

[Dr. Ellwood]

QUOTE:"I once had the chance to watch Eric Johnson soundcheck. I found it odd that someone who is sooo obsessed with his tone, that he spends hours just positioning his pedals, wouldn't tour with his own PA. At least mics, cables, and some kind of monitoring system. any thoughts?" .. I dont know (Bill and Neil will) but let me guess..I bet that before the tour the sound crews or their management are told what to have on hand at each venue (minimum essentials for him)???

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Originally posted by ellwood:

OK..Neil and Bill...please tell how YOU would mike up a 1960A bottom? (Im doing the doublecheck on our guy)

Double checking your guy?

 

That's just offensive. If you don't trust him, replace him. If you have him because he is cheap rather than good, then you got what you paid for.

 

Bill

[musicalhair]

Bill jumped in faster than I could.

 

I think one of the points made in this thread is that they wouldn't mic it, they'd listen. Then they'd mic it. If they could say what they'd do this far away from your cabinet-- you in detroit, Bill in Pittsburg, Niel in like Nashville or their abouts-- they'd invalidate they whole listening first idea.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Ok OK when your right your right... naww its just that I know there are so many different ways to mic cabinets is all... ok Ill say how he does it then.. ok he puts one mike on the upper left 12 and one off axis on the lower right 12. We are very happy with him/her... his wife comes along most times and runs cables for him ..and she a great cook too!!!

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Originally posted by ellwood:

QUOTE:"..I bet that before the tour the sound crews or their management are told what to have on hand at each venue (minimum essentials for him)???

It is too expensive for some guys to tour with a system. There are various reasons for this. Some don't tour enough to keep a system on the road; some play so many different sized venues that it doesn't work. Few artists own their own rig... that would just be stupid.

 

But they send out a rider to the contract, which includes things like how much/what kind of beer

or color of M&Ms in the dressingroom, and what PA requirements are needed, etc.

 

 

Bill