Girl Power

[southpawstrat]

For any doubters, get Jeff Beck's Who Else! (1999) album and check out the first track, "What Mamma Said." The tapping line in there played by Batten is not only an awesome lick, it is musically exciting and fits in the context of the tune. I haven't heard Eddie come up with anything that interesting since the early 80s.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Joni Mitchell, Chrissie Hynde, Joan Jett....WHAT!!! JONI MITCHELL!! YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING!! hay believe me I'm not being nasty just to be nasty man but.... gezzzz COME ON!!you cold just romp and stop over all of those women as far as guitar playing goes (I hope!) I know I could... again and again we keep trying to confuse the issue..its NOT song writing ability..its NOT stage presence...it's NOT clothes ..fashion..huminatarian good works..........we are ONLY talking about guitar playing!!! JONI MITCHELL woah!!!!

[southpawstrat]

So, you can play the lick from "What Mamma Said," then?

[LPCustom]

I think Jabberwocky's original question is still unanswered.

 

Yes there are a few really good female guitarists. But for every good female guitarist there must be at least five good male guitarists (this number comes out of thin air...). I think this is just because there are more male guitarists than female ones. I would guess that the ratio between mediocre, good and great guitarists is probably the same between the sexes.

 

Jabberywocky's question is why do males seem to be drawn to playing guitar more than females. I must confess I don't really know. I guess it may have something to do with the differences in the emotional makeup of males and females.

 

Or perhaps it has something to do with the fact that males generally tend to like hardware more than females do. I know two women who play guitar and they are more interested in what they can get out of a guitar than the guitar itself.

 

The guys I know (including me) are just as interested in the axe as they are in what they can get out of it. Neither of the female players I know can even tell you what kind of pickups their guitars have in them. But both of them play very well. In other words the women seem to be more interested in their expression and the men have a greater interest in the technical aspects as well as their expression.

 

Now, I'm not saying this is universal. But that has been my observation. Women seem to be just as up on music theory and the fretboard as guys do after all. And the best female players are nearly as good (if not just as good) as any male player. But fewer women, I think, share the enthusiasm, in general, for guitars and guitar playing that men do.

 

Now, perhaps it could also be due to sexism in the music industry. Record companies might just not promote female guitarists the way they do male guitarists. I know most all girl bands were just perceived as a gimic (The Runaways, The Go-Gos, etc.) and were promoted poorly by the record companies.

 

Maybe it's because when women "break in" on an area that is dominated by men, they usually don't get the respect of the men. And seeing that playing guitar is dominated by men, most women just don't bother even though they may have the desire to play.

 

Perhaps any female guitar players on this board could pipe up and give the guys here an insight into that.

 

Hell, maybe it's because most women don't want to cut their fingernails that short. I don't know.

 

The above is not to say that men or women are superior when it comes to playing guitars. We're just different. (Thank God for that! )

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by strat monk:

So, you can play the lick from "What Mamma Said," then?

Well sure..can't you? there are tons of players on this forum that can...the realy issue is always this..the real talent behind someting like that opening lick is the person who thought it up! not the person that can copy it...right!

[southpawstrat]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Originally posted by strat monk:

So, you can play the lick from "What Mamma Said," then?

Well sure..can't you? there are tons of players on this forum that can...the realy issue is always this..the real talent behind someting like that opening lick is the person who thought it up! not the person that can copy it...right!

Exactly!!

 

Point being: I don't care if it's a woman, man, chimpanzee, or walking pair of asscheeks that made up that lick, it's still one of the more interesting and gut busting guitar licks that has been played recently.

 

But then again, all bass players are really just frusterated guitar players, right? (like James Jamerson)

[The Bear Jew]

Hmm... OK, Ellwood...

I AM talking about guitar ability. These women can play. Good or bad is subjective to personal opinion.

 

I think we have vastly different conceptions of what constitutes great guitar playing. I will not make assumptions as to what your conception is, but I can tell you that I think great guitarists play what the music requires of them.

 

So...

 

Jennifer Batten is a Steve Vai type--she gets paid to play "crazy guitar shit," which what fits the acts she joins.

Chrissie Hynde is a Keith Richards type--she writes great pop tunes and holds it together with a solid rhythm.

Joni Mitchell is a Paul Simon type--she has innovative melodic ideas and creates her own tunings to support her voice and incredible songwriting.

Ruyter Suys is an Angus Young type--blues-inspired solos with a ton of heart. She even plays an SG! And Nashville Pussy is actually pretty well known... the band toured with Motorhead and was a headliner on the "Tattoo The Earth" tour with a bunch of other HUGE act like Slipknot.

Donna R is a Mick Mars type of player--yet another blues-rocker with a lot of heart. The Donnas had a few singles recently, and the band has been on MTV quite a bit.

[Billster]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Joni Mitchell, Chrissie Hynde, Joan Jett....WHAT!!! JONI MITCHELL!! YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING!! hay believe me I'm not being nasty just to be nasty man but.... gezzzz COME ON!!you cold just romp and stop over all of those women as far as guitar playing goes (I hope!) I know I could... again and again we keep trying to confuse the issue..its NOT song writing ability..its NOT stage presence...it's NOT clothes ..fashion..huminatarian good works..........we are ONLY talking about guitar playing!!! JONI MITCHELL woah!!!!

Are you aware that Joni Mitchell devises her own tunings to express the music? Her music would not sound the way it does if she didn't sit down and twist the tuning pegs the way she does. That is a step in innovating on the guitar, not just imitating.

 

What exactly do you mean by "romp all over"?

[jackpine]

Jeez... I wish I could suck like Joni Mitchell.

 

Come to think of it, I wish I could suck on Joni Mitchell.

[Dr. Ellwood]

yep you guys are right..they are all fantastic! guess I'll try to fumble through a Chrissie Hynde riff, challenging yes, complex yes... doable maybe not! but we can only try.

[Wewus432]

The only I want to say here ELLWOOD, is your avatar is so big that it's screwing up the page size. You need to reduce that to about one third that size, or find something else.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Wewus432:

The only I want to say here ELLWOOD, is your avatar is so big that it's screwing up the page size. You need to reduce that to about one third that size, or find something else.

Ya I know ..I had problem with it this morning and changed servers..it won't reduce in size for some reason...I will quit posting untill I can repair it somehow..thanks for the heads up....Lee

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Yep usually do get along I just get pissed when these guys jump in trying to show everybody how diverse and sensitive they are.

I don't give a crap about being sensitive or diverse. I am honestly telling you that whether you have a penis or vagina has nothing at all to do with your playing ability.

 

You know whose fault it is that you're unaware of great female shredders? It's your own, or people like you. See, this is a self-propigating attitude. Because people like you make assumptions that chicks can't play, they don't get the same opportunities that guys get from labels, club owners and so on.

 

Until the '60s, it was assumed by team owners and coaches that black men didn't have the savvy and intelligence to play quarterback in the NFL. So, it was assumed by the public that this was true, because, after all, "there are no great black QBs",

 

It wasn't until great players like Williiams, Cunningham, Moon and the rest showed people that black guys can throw the ball as well as anyone that this permeated the public consciousness. I honestly hope for YOUR sake that some chick comes along that rips your head off with her playing ability so you can see that you're just plain wrong.

 

Bigotry is ugly as hell and makes me actually angry. Sorry for calling you a moron earlier. I think you're just more ignorant than possibly stupid, which isn't a lot better, but leave you less at fault than if you're truly misogynistic. I don't know you well enough to say either way, so i'm hoping it's more the former than the letter.

 

P.S. I'm a guitarist with over 30 years experience as a pro, with a bachelor's degree in music, as well as eductation at Berklee and GIT, and Joni Mitchell plays some incredibly complicated shit with alt tunings that no one else in the world seems to use. Gys like Larry Carlton marvel at Joni's playing skills. You really should look into it before you diss. It'd make you seem smarter.

 

- Jeff

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Jeff Klopmeyer:

Originally posted by ellwood:

Yep usually do get along I just get pissed when these guys jump in trying to show everybody how diverse and sensitive they are.

I don't give a crap about being sensitive or diverse. I am honestly telling you that whether you have a penis or vagina has nothing at all to do with your playing ability.

 

You know whose fault it is that you're unaware of great female shredders? It's your own, or people like you. See, this is a self-propigating attitude. Because people like you make assumptions that chicks can't play, they don't get the same opportunities that guys get from labels, club owners and so on.

 

Until the '60s, it was assumed by team owners and coaches that black men didn't have the savvy and intelligence to play quarterback in the NFL. So, it was assumed by the public that this was true, because, after all, "there are no great black QBs",

 

It wasn't until great players like Williiams, Cunningham, Moon and the rest showed people that black guys can throw the ball as well as anyone that this permeated the public consciousness. I honestly hope for YOUR sake that some chick comes along that rips your head off with her playing ability so you can see that you're just plain wrong.

 

Bigotry is ugly as hell and makes me actually angry. Sorry for calling you a moron earlier. I think you're just more ignorant than possibly stupid, which isn't a lot better, but leave you less at fault than if you're truly misogynistic. I don't know you well enough to say either way, so i'm hoping it's more the former than the letter.

 

P.S. I'm a guitarist with over 30 years experience as a pro, with a bachelor's degree in music, as well as eductation at Berklee and GIT, and Joni Mitchell plays some incredibly complicated shit with alt tunings that no one else in the world seems to use. Gys like Larry Carlton marvel at Joni's playing skills. You really should look into it before you diss. It'd make you seem smarter.

 

- Jeff

Ahh I see, and my quest now is to make you think I'm smarter? Could I care less what you think? most likely not. Oh and congratulations on the accomplishments, I know we are all very impressed and glad for you. I will just muddle along here and be honored that a person/musician of your stature would even communicate with me.

[Dr. Ellwood]

" I honestly hope for YOUR sake that some chick comes along that rips your head off with her playing ability so you can see that you're just plain wrong."

 

Jeff Jeff,Jeff...now don't be a hater, are you a charter member of the Redondo Beach ladies society aux.for the prevention of cruelty to lady guitarslingers

 

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by strat monk:

Originally posted by ellwood:

Originally posted by strat monk:

So, you can play the lick from "What Mamma Said," then?

Well sure..can't you? there are tons of players on this forum that can...the realy issue is always this..the real talent behind someting like that opening lick is the person who thought it up! not the person that can copy it...right!

Exactly!!

 

Point being: I don't care if it's a woman, man, chimpanzee, or walking pair of asscheeks that made up that lick, it's still one of the more interesting and gut busting guitar licks that has been played recently.

 

But then again, all bass players are really just frusterated guitar players, right? (like James Jamerson)

Except for one thing.... Beck made up the lick..wooops

[southpawstrat]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Originally posted by strat monk:

Originally posted by ellwood:

quote:

---

Originally posted by strat monk:

So, you can play the lick from "What Mamma Said," then?

Well sure..can't you? there are tons of players on this forum that can...the realy issue is always this..the real talent behind someting like that opening lick is the person who thought it up! not the person that can copy it...right!

Exactly!!

 

Point being: I don't care if it's a woman, man, chimpanzee, or walking pair of asscheeks that made up that lick, it's still one of the more interesting and gut busting guitar licks that has been played recently.

 

But then again, all bass players are really just frusterated guitar players, right? (like James Jamerson)

Except for one thing.... Beck made up the lick..wooops

---

Nope. Jeff wrote his part but Jennifer wrote the distorted tapping riff that he plays over. That's the one I was talking about. Jennifer also wrote the riff to "Earthquake" on You Had It Coming, another kick ass song.

[southpawstrat]

Also, I refer you to the live shows where Jennifer got an extended solo on "Led Boots" that absolutely rips, her interesting and in-the-pocket reggae rhythm playing on the live version of "Behind the Veil," her mastery of guitar synth playing (see "Angel Footsteps" or "Declan"). Of course I'm referring to both Toronto live in 1999 and in 2001, as well as the Europe tour in 2001, and Japan in 2000. If there's anything else you'd like to challenge me about Jennifer Batten or Jeff Beck, please feel free to private message me.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by LPCustom77:

Now, I'm not saying this is universal. But that has been my observation. Women seem to be just as up on music theory and the fretboard as guys do after all. And the best female players are nearly as good (if not just as good) as any male player. But fewer women, I think, share the enthusiasm, in general, for guitars and guitar playing that men do.

 

Now, perhaps it could also be due to sexism in the music industry. Record companies might just not promote female guitarists the way they do male guitarists. I know most all girl bands were just perceived as a gimic (The Runaways, The Go-Gos, etc.) and were promoted poorly by the record companies.

 

Maybe it's because when women "break in" on an area that is dominated by men, they usually don't get the respect of the men. And seeing that playing guitar is dominated by men, most women just don't bother even though they may have the desire to play.

 

Perhaps any female guitar players on this board could pipe up and give the guys here an insight into that.

OK. Personally, I've never considered being female a disadvantage. Maybe some women are intimidated by the fact that it's mostly men in the biz, but most guys (at least the ones I've played with) enjoy playing with a woman and it's certainly a "marketing advantage." So, even though there was more blatant sexism 25 years ago when I started than there is now, it was never so bad that I couldn't find a gig or was stuck playing in bands with sexist jerks.

 

I always considered the all girl band thing to be a gimmick, and most of them had little regard for who was a good player. I believe a band should always hire the best person for the job and since there are more so many more male rock musicians than female, most of the time that's going to be a guy. It's just the reality.

 

Now the other reality is that "the best person for the job" may not be a "shredder." I'm not a "shredder" as a guitar player because shredding doesn't interest me and never has, either as a fan or as a player. I've always most respected guitar players who play to the song - people like Keith Richards, Lennon, Harrison, Townshend, Fogerty, Mike Campbell, Richard Thompson, etc. That's just my taste, just as it is those guys' taste. Other men and women have different tastes and I assume that's what their playing reflects.

 

Now as for why there are so many more male rock guitarists than female, I'd say it's probably as simple as this: most women are not attracted to the "lifestyle." We're hardwired to want to have kids at some point, and the "rock'n'roll lifestyle" doesn't exactly make a woman feel all warm and fuzzy about her financial future or having a stable home and life for her kids. So a woman inclined toward music is more apt to want a gig with an orchestra, or a cover band, or something else that doesn't involve getting into a van full of smelly guys and playing a gig somewhere that you're lucky if it pays gas money. Or sitting in some crappy apartment coming up with the next big musical style which let's face it, takes up all your time and isn't going to pay well in all likelihood for quite some time, if ever. Women just tend to be more pragmatic that way because, if we're gonna have kids, we have to. So while a lot of women might give lip service to "wanting to be a rock star" there aren't that many that will actually do what it takes to do it. It conflicts with the whole "having kids" thing too much, unless you're too much of a dumbass to make the connection or you're willing to put having a family on hold until later in life.

 

In my case, I've never wanted kids so it wasn't an issue. I've always felt free to get just as geeked out as you guys about gear and such, and put all my energy into playing in a band. But if I had wanted kids I could see where my decisions would've been a lot different. I know some awesome male musicians who also could be better known but are not, because they chose to have a family and didn't want to be unstable (either money wise or time wise) for their kids. But I think many more women are going to be turned off to an unstable lifestyle than men, cuz we're wired like that, and it's no big deal... any woman who has the desire to do this crazy thing called "be a rock guitarist" should certainly do it and there are lots who do it well, but most don't have the desire and that's OK too. People make way too big a thing out of it either way.

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by ellwood:

I will just muddle along here and be honored that a person/musician of your stature would even communicate with me.

Well, that's kinda the point, Ellwood. We're all musicians. Black, white, guys, chicks, accomplished, novice, whatever. We're here to help each other, not to divide and conquer.

 

I do hope for your sake that you hear a woman playing guitar who is impressive, and crumples your "chicks can't play" theory to throw in the trash where it belongs. You might be a nice enough guy, but it's sad to see someone so misguided.

 

Let me know if you need more help understanding this.

 

- Jeff

[Dr. Ellwood]

Believe me when I say that there has never been or will ever be a case for someone like you to help me with anything in anyway. Not ever, you can state your premise in as many ways as you like and nothing will ever change. If I do not change my way of thinking, what possibly would be the negative consequences for me personally? ..None, would be the answer. Impressive guitar players can of coarse be of either sex, I say there are more male impressive guitar players and not just because there are more. I ask the question why this is so? and all I get are random examples of a few women players that are impressive...again...why aren't there more? Jeff I will not got into a litany of my credentials. However I can say you might be impressed or maybe not, I guess we will never know.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by LPCustom77:

Now, I'm not saying this is universal. But that has been my observation. Women seem to be just as up on music theory and the fretboard as guys do after all. And the best female players are nearly as good (if not just as good) as any male player. But fewer women, I think, share the enthusiasm, in general, for guitars and guitar playing that men do.

 

Now, perhaps it could also be due to sexism in the music industry. Record companies might just not promote female guitarists the way they do male guitarists. I know most all girl bands were just perceived as a gimic (The Runaways, The Go-Gos, etc.) and were promoted poorly by the record companies.

 

Maybe it's because when women "break in" on an area that is dominated by men, they usually don't get the respect of the men. And seeing that playing guitar is dominated by men, most women just don't bother even though they may have the desire to play.

 

Perhaps any female guitar players on this board could pipe up and give the guys here an insight into that.

OK. Personally, I've never considered being female a disadvantage. Maybe some women are intimidated by the fact that it's mostly men in the biz, but most guys (at least the ones I've played with) enjoy playing with a woman and it's certainly a "marketing advantage." So, even though there was more blatant sexism 25 years ago when I started than there is now, it was never so bad that I couldn't find a gig or was stuck playing in bands with sexist jerks.

 

I always considered the all girl band thing to be a gimmick, and most of them had little regard for who was a good player. I believe a band should always hire the best person for the job and since there are more so many more male rock musicians than female, most of the time that's going to be a guy. It's just the reality.

 

Now the other reality is that "the best person for the job" may not be a "shredder." I'm not a "shredder" as a guitar player because shredding doesn't interest me and never has, either as a fan or as a player. I've always most respected guitar players who play to the song - people like Keith Richards, Lennon, Harrison, Townshend, Fogerty, Mike Campbell, Richard Thompson, etc. That's just my taste, just as it is those guys' taste. Other men and women have different tastes and I assume that's what their playing reflects.

 

Now as for why there are so many more male rock guitarists than female, I'd say it's probably as simple as this: most women are not attracted to the "lifestyle." We're hardwired to want to have kids at some point, and the "rock'n'roll lifestyle" doesn't exactly make a woman feel all warm and fuzzy about her financial future or having a stable home and life for her kids. So a woman inclined toward music is more apt to want a gig with an orchestra, or a cover band, or something else that doesn't involve getting into a van full of smelly guys and playing a gig somewhere that you're lucky if it pays gas money. Or sitting in some crappy apartment coming up with the next big musical style which let's face it, takes up all your time and isn't going to pay well in all likelihood for quite some time, if ever. Women just tend to be more pragmatic that way because, if we're gonna have kids, we have to. So while a lot of women might give lip service to "wanting to be a rock star" there aren't that many that will actually do what it takes to do it. It conflicts with the whole "having kids" thing too much, unless you're too much of a dumbass to make the connection or you're willing to put having a family on hold until later in life.

 

In my case, I've never wanted kids so it wasn't an issue. I've always felt free to get just as geeked out as you guys about gear and such, and put all my energy into playing in a band. But if I had wanted kids I could see where my decisions would've been a lot different. I know some awesome male musicians who also could be better known but are not, because they chose to have a family and didn't want to be unstable (either money wise or time wise) for their kids. But I think many more women are going to be turned off to an unstable lifestyle than men, cuz we're wired like that, and it's no big deal... any woman who has the desire to do this crazy thing called "be a rock guitarist" should certainly do it and there are lots who do it well, but most don't have the desire and that's OK too. People make way too big a thing out of it either way.

You know what Lee ....that was excellant! See Jeff..THAT is how to answer a question..thanks Lee!

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Believe me when I say that there has never been or will ever be a case for someone like you to help me with anything in anyway.

That's too bad. I've helped quite a few folks around here, but if you're content in your life, then far be it for me to try and give you a hand.

 

Best of luck, and all that.

 

- Jeff

[The Bear Jew]

Cripes.

What a waste of bandwidth.

 

I like ice cream.

Do you?

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Ice cream is good. And there are so many flavors to choose from, each with their own ice creamy goodness! Like, one day, you may be into chocolate, and another time rocky road, and another time pistachio, and another time tutti-fruity.

 

It's awesome that we have all these ice cream choices! Imagine how much life would suck if it were all vanilla, all the time. Or, worse, if you told people that anyone who didn't only like vanilla that you were right and they were wrong! Pretty silly, huh?

 

Yup, love the ice cream.

 

- Jeff

[Billster]

Imagine if there was only one maker of vanilla. Only, say, Breyers. No Ben & Jerry's, no Haagen Daz. Boring.

[The Bear Jew]

If I didn't know better, I'd swear you guys were talking about something besides ice cream.

 

I like mint.

[Funk Jazz]

don't forget the puppy dogs with your ice cream

 

http://www.heartsandpaws.net/images/puppy%20dogs%201.gif

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by CMDN:

If I didn't know better, I'd swear you guys were talking about something besides ice cream.

Huh? Dude, I just like ice cream.

 

You know, I also like metal, and jazz, and classical music. I like killer sports cars and heavy trucks. Football and hockey. Les Pauls and Strats. Blondes and brunettes. Maybe I'm weird like that, I dunno.

 

- Jeff

[Lee Flier]

Nah Jeff, you're just a slut. But you knew that.