Speaker wattage and tone ?

[alanfc]

hello-

can someone run down the key differences for me-

 

between higher watt vs. lower watt?

 

and "speaker distortion"?

 

thanks

.

[Big Red 67]

I think you are talking about amp wattage. The lower watt amps will distort at a lower volume. Tubes are better for this then solid state. I have a 15watt fender that will start to produce distortion at listenable levels for me without hurting my ears(gets run at 4.25). It is also loud enough for playing out. If I plug into the 50watt bassman head it will rip my head off when the knob is at 3 and still not hit the kinda tone I want.

 

hope that helps.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Conventional wisdom says that you should have a speaker that can handle all the power your amp has to offer, and have a fair amount of headroom, besides.

 

Years ago I used to use high power rated PA quality speakers with my amps. I had JBLs and Gauss high wattage speakers, and I was using my Marshalls as preamps for Crown 300s.

 

I had to crank the levels to unbelievably loud volumes in order to get a good sound.

 

Then it occured to me..... if I used a lower power rated speaker, it would break up at a lower level, and sound 'better' faster, without deafening me. (Like Doug and Dinsdale Piranna, for me, this was a turning point.)

 

So I started pulling out the standard speakers in small amps like Fender Deluxes and putting in really cheap 15 watt speakers in them. I put 2 cheap TV speakers in a Vibroluxe Reverb. I experimented with all sorts of options.

 

I like getting a really cheap speaker and putting it on a mid-power amp.

 

I've used Jensens and Celestions, CTS, or Eminences. The trick for me is to pick one about half the power of the amp. Since we rarely push the amps over a few watts anyway, I've never blown a speaker yet.

 

Bill

[alanfc]

Originally posted by Big Red 67:

I think you are talking about amp wattage. The lower watt amps will distort at a lower volume. Tubes are better for this then solid state. I have a 15watt fender that will start to produce distortion at listenable levels for me without hurting my ears(gets run at 4.25). It is also loud enough for playing out. If I plug into the 50watt bassman head it will rip my head off when the knob is at 3 and still not hit the kinda tone I want.

 

hope that helps.

thank you Big Red, but I'm familiar with the amp side of it, its just the speaker distortion side of the equation that always stumped me. I mean I read some people that talk about wanting speaker distortion and "cone breakup" or something like that.

[alanfc]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

..................Then it occured to me..... if I used a lower power rated speaker, it would break up at a lower level, and sound 'better' faster, without deafening me..............

 

Bill

OK I think I get this- but the breakup and the 'better' sound are sort of personal yes? This means that the speaker brand/model/wattage can all have different signatures that please us or not? Like preamp tubes or pickups?..

 

I need to find examples of all these different types in their 'good' breaking up stages and their unstressed stages. I don't think I could do this experiment at home but I'll start searching on the net.

 

thanks alot.

[g.]

For some guitarists, increasingly few bassists, and virtually nobody else, speaker non-linearity is a desirable part of the instrument's sound. For everybody else the ideal is to be able to reproduce transparently. This is partly because the history of the electric guitar is married to non-linear [distorted] reproduction, and much of the feel and sound of playing electric guitar has become associated with it in recordings and playing experiences.

 

No mystery there, how big a part the "amp" is of the instrument's allure and its remembered sounds.

[rebonn]

A 50 watt tube amp into a 16 ohm cab does it for me.

[Chipotle]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

Conventional wisdom says that you should have a speaker that can handle all the power your amp has to offer, and have a fair amount of headroom, besides.....

 

I've used Jensens and Celestions, CTS, or Eminences. The trick for me is to pick one about half the power of the amp. Since we rarely push the amps over a few watts anyway, I've never blown a speaker yet.

 

Bill

I think that's a really bad idea, because when you blow the voice coil on your speaker, your tube amp will run unloaded and potentially damage the output transformer. Also, guitar players habitually run their amps beyond "clean" rated watts to obtain more distortion.

 

A little speaker breakup at extreme amp settings is ok, but I don't think having your speakers about to give up with your amp up halfway is a good sound. I think "conventional wisdom" is the way to go with speaker ratings.

[g.]

Yeah, Chipotle, that's so. Most speakers marketed specifically as guitar speakers are designed to be non-linear and "break up" below their rated wattage anyway. This is one reason guitar speakers and sound reinforcement speakers of lower wattages are not one and the same.

[g.]

As far as wattage stress, the other issue is open back and sealed cabinetry of course. Some designs/models don't handle power as well in open-back configs, notable at lower frequencies.

[alanfc]

thanks

 

I just read something about Stevie Ray Vaughan and his preference for 200W speakers, wanting =no= speaker distortion at all. I think I'm interested in this approach.

[g.]

alanfc,

 

That's a move most bassists have long-since embraced, and has accelerated with the advent of 5- and 6-string models and the demand for better power handling. Bass rigs of the distant past WERE just warmed-over guitar designs, and until speaker R&D made it possible, bassists were incredibly constrained by the volumes that could be achieved.

 

Most of the "new vintage" action in guitar speaker manufacturing is basically just trying to make speakers that have the same non-linear characteristics - power compression - and cone cry of various speakers that were in use "back in the day". It is practically an exercise in un-design ; } ...Ironically, when guitarists began to have access to designs with better linearity and power handling too, they took advantage of it, and it wasn't until much later that vintage concerns (one might say much of this was canny marketing) began to exude more influence again.

 

Now, tube power stages - that's another story altogether ; }

[g.]

Vintage Buffs - BTW, not saying better or worse - just "choices". One of the real improvements today is that manufacturers are WAY more consistent. If you buy four vintage-modeled speaker loads they are likely to be within a coupke percent of each other in all T_S regards - one won't have a ridiculously weak surround and another a way higher f3. And the tolerances that affect longevity/reliability are way tighter.

 

It's good to be now : }

[Chipotle]

Originally posted by alanfc:

thanks

 

I just read something about Stevie Ray Vaughan and his preference for 200W speakers, wanting =no= speaker distortion at all. I think I'm interested in this approach.

That's too bad because many players find the 15-30 watt celestions to be the best sounding guitar speakers. You just use more of them to handle higher wattage amps.

[g.]

Brian (to adoring crowd): You've got to think for yourself! You're all individuals!

 

Crowd (in unison): Yes, we're all individuals!

 

Brian: You're all different!

 

Crowd: Yes. We're all different!

 

Single voice within crowd: I'm not.

[Big Red 67]

You could do what Dave Davies did and use a razor blade on the speaker cone. I like the sound of the tubes doing the saturation.

[g.]

You could do what Dave Davies did and use a razor blade on the speaker cone

Who got it off of someone who got it off of someone who probably copped it off of Guitar Slim or someone. That was how FUZZ was first done, and all because it was noticed that a torn cone made this sound, so one with some extra damage should make more of it. The story as I misremember it, as copped off of Frank Zappa ; }

[alanfc]

thanks-

 

I'm not committed to anything yet.

 

I'm just going to get out and see if I can find stores + forumites in my area who have different types of cabs and just bring my guitar & amp and try them in person the old-fashioned way.

[alanfc]

update on the quest:

 

In my quest to learn about speaker types & wattage, so as to have my best cab mic'ed for live play, I've asked a million questions but have done no real tests. But here is one.

 

2 :30 clips

One is the Eminence V30-type

One is the Celestion 85w

 

Same amp settings, same guitar, same mic preamp levels, same mic position, (head on 1cm off grill just like the club techs have been doing). I just moved the mic from one speaker to the other. A little buzzy due bedroom volume/low master vol., and a little sloppy due I'm playing hooky from work right now on my lunch hour.

 

which do you think is which, and whats going to come out better live?. I've found my answer in the test.

 

please give me your opinions !

 

It's TRACK 1 entitled

"Cab Mic Test"

 

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=2962&alid=1070

 

click the big Play button for hi-fi stream, small for lo-fi, and the down arrow to download.

[Big Red 67]

I liked the second speaker best. The first was a little too foward to me and slightly harsh.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Originally posted by Chipotle:

... The trick for me is to pick one about half the power of the amp. Since we rarely push the amps over a few watts anyway, I've never blown a speaker yet.

 

Bill

I think that's a really bad idea, because when you blow the voice coil on your speaker, your tube amp will run unloaded and potentially damage the output transformer.

 

Also, guitar players habitually run their amps beyond "clean" rated watts to obtain more distortion.

 

... I think "conventional wisdom" is the way to go with speaker ratings.[/QB]

1. Why are you blowing the voice coil?

 

It is square waves which burns speakers... an issue of lack of power. An amp with sufficent power will reproduce the complex waveforms that come from a modern guitar/guitar w/effects setup without lopping the tops off of the waveforms.

 

Perhaps you want that 'topping' as an effect. Fair enough.

 

2. That is another reason to buy a speaker that breaks up quicker.

 

3. My point about 'conventional wizdom' is that it is wrong. Ask any qualified audio systems designer. It is the amp that needs headroom.... usually you try for 10dB if you can get it. (But nobody wants to pay for it... )

 

We seldom use a fraction of the wattage available from our amps, and you'd probably be surprised at how loud only a couple of watts can be. Ever been in a room with a Champ on full? It's loud, and it's only a couple of watts. (What, 3 watts?)

 

It is also worth noting that I started doing this back in the 70s, when the speaker designers were building better, cleaner, high power speakers. Today there is a great interest in the guitar and guitar tones, and speakers are being made specifically to enhance guitar tone. Perhaps you don't have to put in cheaper lower-powered speakers that break up sooner, because you can buy speakers that are specifically designed to break up quicker. Then it just gets down to a matter of dollars... I can take a chance on some cheap speaker for a couple of bucks and see what happens, or you can buy a particular choice (that handles more power) that has been reviewed and remarked upon by other guitar players and reviewers. You'll pay a lot more money but you'll know exactly what you are getting. That option was not open to me when I began this journey and discovered my solution.

 

I've blown studio monitors....it happens. But I haven't blown a guitar speaker in 30 years. I doubt if I ever will.

 

Bill

[Chipotle]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

1. Why are you blowing the voice coil?

 

It is square waves which burns speakers... an issue of lack of power. An amp with sufficent power will reproduce the complex waveforms that come from a modern guitar/guitar w/effects setup without lopping the tops off of the waveforms.

 

Perhaps you want that 'topping' as an effect. Fair enough.

 

2. That is another reason to buy a speaker that breaks up quicker.

 

3. My point about 'conventional wizdom' is that it is wrong. Ask any qualified audio systems designer. It is the amp that needs headroom.... usually you try for 10dB if you can get it. (But nobody wants to pay for it... )

 

We seldom use a fraction of the wattage available from our amps, and you'd probably be surprised at how loud only a couple of watts can be. Ever been in a room with a Champ on full? It's loud, and it's only a couple of watts. (What, 3 watts?)

 

Bill

 

Square waves blow speakers because the coil generates more heat than it can handle from the rapid starts and stops required to reproduce the square wave. You can blow a speaker even if that square wave is generated earlier in the signal chain and is being reproduced cleanly by the power amp. ie the speaker cannot differentiate where the distortions of the sound wave were produced. As guitar players pushing tube amps into distortion, we generate square-like waves, often with transients which exceed the average wattage and I don't think a champ is a particularly loud amp. Personally, I want to have the full range of amplifier power available if I want it, so I use speakers which can handle the wattage. I often use more than a couple watts! An amp with less than 30 watts usually will not give me enough clean headroom to play with average volume drummers.

 

You can use whatever speaker you want for tonal reasons, however I suggest running a load which can handle the full wattage of the amp in parallel (another speaker cabinet, load resistor, weber mass) so in the event of speaker failure the output transformer isn't damaged.

[mwestenberg]

Hmm, what exactly does speaker breakup sound like? To be slave to a set amount of gain with a certain amp into a certain speaker load seems to me to be a very inflexible arrangement unless you're only recording in a studio. It would be far more reliable to get your sound with your amplification of choice and a consistent speaker characteristic than rely on a fly-by-gig contribution from the speakers. If you play a large variety of volume level gigs you may be SOL in terms of repeatability. That said I prefer the tone of lower wattage Celestions myself; I have 25 watters in the Marshall 4x12 and G12L-35 in the wedge cabs I use for lower volume gigs.

[alanfc]

Originally posted by mwestenberg:

Hmm, what exactly does speaker breakup sound like? To be slave to a set amount of gain with a certain amp into a certain speaker load seems to me to be a very inflexible arrangement unless you're only recording in a studio. It would be far more reliable to get your sound with your amplification of choice and a consistent speaker characteristic than rely on a fly-by-gig contribution from the speakers. If you play a large variety of volume level gigs you may be SOL in terms of repeatability. That said I prefer the tone of lower wattage Celestions myself; I have 25 watters in the Marshall 4x12 and G12L-35 in the wedge cabs I use for lower volume gigs.

my "inflexible arrangement" is a budget thing.

I have one main guitar, a few pedals, one 1x12 combo amp, one extension 1x12.

I am the lead in a 2 guitar band. I must not get lost in the mix. The places we play mic the amp cab. I have 2 speaker choices for mic'ing. I cannot go out and buy something new.

My test above showed me that the lower wattage speaker has more spirit and attitude for my music... So this is solved.

[Teahead]

See if you can get to a store and try out some Vox AC30s. They come with either a pair of 25w Greenbacks...(AC30TB) or a pair of 15w Celestion Blue Alnicos...(AC30TBX)

 

You'll need to crank the amp as loud as the salesman will let you, but as you get above half way and especially into the top third of the volume knob you'll hear how the different speakers influence the tone of otherwise identical amps.

 

The Celestion Blue Alnicos are a very efficient 15w speaker, so rating probably isn't everything here as the speaker designs do seem quite different.

 

I find the Blues compress the high end and warm up the tone of the amp compared to the Greenbacks. Each speaker definitely adds its own thing, the difference is quite remarkable.

 

Best of luck...

 

Tea.